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Why most people hate playing against CVs, and why it will probably never be fixed

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People dislike fighting airplanes because Anti-Aircraft mechanic is boring.

There's not much involved in shooting down planes besides focusing the AA sector, and activating Def AA, if available. This means the player doesn't have a sense of control over the AA, as the amount of damage done to planes mostly depends on RNG, the skill of the CV, and the build of the ship. So basically, the results of the engagement are decided before the planes were even spotted. Either the ship annihilates the squadron, or the squadron retreats after one bombing run, or the AA is so weak that the squad makes the maximum amount of dives before returning triumphantly. No matter what, there's not much the player can do to increase the effectiveness of AA. And that makes it boring.

However, if AA becomes too complicated, then players will get even more annoyed by planes, because this means they will have to turn their attention away from shooting at surface ships. We end up with a dilemma : if the player does not have control over AA, CV players will feel like they are playing a PvE game, while unicum captains of surface ships will be disappointed because skill doesn't do anything against aircraft. If the player has too much control over AA, then surface ship captains will have to get very good at multi-tasking, which is annoying.

CV players don't want to play against RNG while fighting against game mechanics, they want to play against players; surface ship players would be fine with having AA controlled by a bot or RNG or some gameplay mechanic, as long as planes are shot down regularly. However, WG can't simply buff AA, because if AA becomes too strong, then CV players will never be able to land a strike, no matter how skilled the CV captain is, or how potato-y the ship captain is. But surface ship players also don't want to fiddle with a complicated AA system in the middle of an intense gunfight. BBs might be fine with having more control over their AA, due to long reload times, but DDs and CLs often can't afford to turn their attention away for even a second. WG can't simply buff AA either, because if AA becomes too strong, then CV players will never be able to land a strike, no matter how skilled the CV captain is, or how potato-y the ship captain is. WG has to choose between giving player more control over AA, or giving them less control over AA. And both options decrease the quality of gameplay.

That's the problem.

 

 

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It can be fix by nerfing it until it's irrelevant. 

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give the player some way to control the AA and you will see a big decrease in AA performance because   human controled AA is not laser guided like the automatic one.i can already see it,the old guy trying to hit planes going at 200 knots with AA in a minotaur.

the playerbase should be very careful with what they wish,it might backfire comically.

Edited by Cruxdei
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LOL IKR. Much the same with BBs relying their damage upon fire and spitting HE. I really would like to know who is the brain behind all this nerd nonsense. And they dare to ask is if we would recomend this game to others lol. I know is not a simulator but at least should be respectful about players who have an idea and like me, were really expecting a battleship game to show up.

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The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

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34 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

That's because most players do not understand this. They just want to shoot stuff.

Before the CV change I offered my AA spec CLs to many a CV and BB and 90% of the time did not get a response.

At some point you just give up.

Edited by freggo
spelling fix

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I suggested very recently on the EU forums to have manual secondaries and AA. Should not have suggested both at the same time...

I still think the biggest flaw is having software dealing with the ship-air combat. Where ship ship combat requires interaction, ship air requires barely any interaction. You do some stuff in port and wiggle your ship, but some ships are better at it than others. 
So to gain more interaction I suggested have manual AA, next to automatic AA. That way you can take control over your own AA guns when you have the time for it. That way it will feel like you have a chance against planes in any ship. Perhaps a skilled DD player will be able to shoot more planes down from a potato than the automatic AA will ever do, but does this matter?

The only weapon we currently can control is switching sectors and our only defense is just some WASD hacks.We don't have any skilled attack mechanism against planes currently. It makes CVs pretty unique to play since they lack human interaction in PVP games, compared to the surface ships. I still see the current CVs as the old Bastogne game mode, only now the forts are being controlled by players.

 

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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20 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I suggested very recently on the EU forums to have manual secondaries and AA. Should not have suggested both at the same time...

I still think the biggest flaw is having software dealing with the ship-air combat. Where ship ship combat requires interaction, ship air requires barely any interaction. You do some stuff in port and wiggle your ship, but some ships are better at it than others. 
So to gain more interaction I suggested have manual AA, next to automatic AA. That way you can take control over your own AA guns when you have the time for it. That way it will feel like you have a chance against planes in any ship. Perhaps a skilled DD player will be able to shoot more planes down from a potato than the automatic AA will ever do, but does this matter?

The only weapon we currently can control is switching sectors and our only defense is just some WASD hacks.We don't have any skilled attack mechanism against planes currently. It makes CVs pretty unique to play since they lack human interaction in PVP games, compared to the surface ships. I still see the current CVs as the old Bastogne game mode, only now the forts are being controlled by players.

 

Why not have it be a choice? Auto-AA till taken control of. Could do the same with secondaries, even. Heck, buff AA and make the AI's aim equally bad enough to compensate, allowing skilled play to be effective with some margin of error, but the auto aimed AA to be effective as well. Everyone wins!

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4 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

give the player some way to control the AA and you will see a big decrease in AA performance because   human controled AA is not laser guided like the automatic one.i can already see it,the old guy trying to hit planes going at 200 knots with AA in a minotaur.

the playerbase should be very careful with what they wish,it might backfire comically.

True manual AA control would be a stupid thing to implement and would be the single biggest buff to Carriers in the game.

 

Scenario:

 

You're in a Cruiser or Battleship.  You're in a gunfight.  But you notice enemy aircraft coming your way.  WTH are you going to do now?

Give up sailing and main battery control of your ship to manually fire your AA guns?  You'll be sailing straight and dumb and the main battery will do nothing.

Or

Keep focusing on sailing correctly because you are under heavy gunfire, and provide zero control of AA and they just do nothing.

 

The current AA control (Pre or Post CV Rework) is ideal because it's automatic.

 

Edit:  On second thought, I'm all for 100% player control of AA guns.  Let them get what they deserve.  I'd like to see it blow up in everyone's faces.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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The reason why I don;t like thee Current CV format is because, DD are the main target for CVs. (very boring)

As long as, the developers continue to practice DMG potential discrimination to appease/show preference to a particular class. 

The CV project has/will fail because of the ^^^ above mentioned flaw in WOWS "balance" policy.

 

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I've been thinking about a simple manual AA mode that a player can jump into which only partially overrides the current mechanics while its active, and while inactive AA will behave as-is so that the player can focus on doing other things. It lets the player mouse-aim a fraction of continuous AA and flak AA (if available) using a wide circular reticle with minor improvements to accuracy, in return that portion of AA will be subtracted from the the automated defense and the main guns will remain quiet (as I wouldn't want to give particular players even easier access to botting strats). This way a surface ship has some agency when it's just them versus the CV and a choice of priorities when in the thick of combat, and a CV player is occasionally put up against something more than an RNG machine.

A man can dream.

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5 hours ago, Cruxdei said:

give the player some way to control the AA and you will see a big decrease in AA performance because   human controled AA is not laser guided like the automatic one.i can already see it,the old guy trying to hit planes going at 200 knots with AA in a minotaur.

the playerbase should be very careful with what they wish,it might backfire comically.

That and have you actually tried to look at and track planes with your sights?  despite being spotted you often cant even see them until they are dropping on them.

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I don’t mind CVs in the game so long as you limit them to one per team AND do something about the ability of having an unlimited supply of planes with no down period. 

Was playing yesterday. Down to two ships per side. They had CV and cruiser. We had CV and myself in the Nelson. We had the game on caps/points and just waiting to hit 1,000. I tried to cap the last circle while their CV tried to prevent it. CV was parked behind an island right near the cap so very short transit time for its planes to reach me however I couldn’t see him. Wave after wave of planes were on me because of rapid relaunch, endless supply, speed, etc. Wasn’t able to cap but won in the end. 

Please just limit the number of CVs per match to one (like DDs are limited to four I believe) and do something about the unlimited supply of planes OR how fast the operator can launch another squadron. 

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2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

I just don't think we will ever have true team work when you have people who play everyday are experienced and take it seriously . As opposed to people who drink play mostly on the weekends for fun and just want to Blow things up for relaxation . I know that is over simplifying it a bit but the jist is people play for different reason at different levels and to expect 12 strangers to come together in a random game and play as a team is prettty optimistic . So it's kind of hard to use that logic because you could be on a team that has no  real experience they just want to have fun and people are screaming in chat but they don't get it and it's really not there fault . If you have to many counters and to many goals in the game that rely on team work it's going to be hit or miss a lot unless you have different levels of play modes and that opens a whole new can of worms . 

Edited by clammboy
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2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

There is no counter to a CV in their current state.  You have to kill them to counter them. 

A good AA cruiser can defend themselves and occasionally make it painful for the CV attacking nearby ships but most of the time its pretty easy for them to avoid your aura even if you're actively trying to cover another ship.  Unless of course you are in amongst a death ball.

The death ball gives you a bit more flexibility to maneuver and still be covering someone else in your aura.  But if you're playing the game normally, it's a lot more difficult than you think to be aggressive against the enemy surface ships without exposing your broadside unnecessarily while also keeping your buddy in your aura.  And vice versa for them.  If you have voice comms, its a bit easier but just normal randoms not so much.

90% of my games have been in AA ships.  AA is quite literally the worst mechanic in this game.  

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"There's no counter play to CVs."

-Signed,

The kind of people CVs love to play against.

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In a real ship you have a large crew to man all the systems in a game the crew is YOU.

CV in this game is basically playing against bots that have differing (difficulty levels set) thats it. The do not belong in the game accept maybe in Co-op playing bots.

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49 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

90% of my games have been in AA ships.  AA is quite literally the worst mechanic in this game.  

And that's sad because I'm sure you bored with that not being able to play a ship you like because it doesn't have good AA . If it's one CV I just play my game I try and not worry about the CV if he makes me his target then I just wish the other players would notice this and go do something while his focus is on me . If it's 2 CVs then you need to stay with at least one or two ships and hope you CV players are good I'm not worrying about it any more I'm just playing the game .

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48 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

"There's no counter play to CVs."

-Signed,

The kind of people CVs love to play against.

Isnt that the truth?

1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

There is no counter to a CV in their current state.  You have to kill them to counter them. 

A good AA cruiser can defend themselves and occasionally make it painful for the CV attacking nearby ships but most of the time its pretty easy for them to avoid your aura even if you're actively trying to cover another ship.  Unless of course you are in amongst a death ball.

The death ball gives you a bit more flexibility to maneuver and still be covering someone else in your aura.  But if you're playing the game normally, it's a lot more difficult than you think to be aggressive against the enemy surface ships without exposing your broadside unnecessarily while also keeping your buddy in your aura.  And vice versa for them.  If you have voice comms, its a bit easier but just normal randoms not so much.

90% of my games have been in AA ships.  AA is quite literally the worst mechanic in this game.  

Thanks for the laugh.

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4 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

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6 minutes ago, clammboy said:

And that's sad because I'm sure you bored with that not being able to play a ship you like because it doesn't have good AA . If it's one CV I just play my game I try and not worry about the CV if he makes me his target then I just wish the other players would notice this and go do something while his focus is on me . If it's 2 CVs then you need to stay with at least one or two ships and hope you CV players are good I'm not worrying about it any more I'm just playing the game .

I went back to the Cleveland back the day because I was sick of RTS CVs and the Cleveland was probably the most powerful AA ship for its tier.  I spent about 100 games trying in vain to use AA in an active/"offensive" manner.  The speed of planes makes it almost impossible to maneuver into an AA position.  The CV has to intentionally fly into your aura for you to do any significant damage.  On rare occasions they might blunder into you but for the most part what bringing an AA cruiser buys you is the CV ignoring you.  Which then, ironically, makes bringing Defensive AA kind of pointless.  

If it wasn't so sad and pathetic, it'd be kind of funny.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

The real counter to CVs is team work. No, not stupid death balls, that's the dumbest thing ever. However, a quick line in chat requesting or offering AA support from a decent AA equipped cruiser will do wonders.

It's funny that WG introduces something that encourages team work, something we hear about the lack of all time, and still we dont see it happening amongst players.

The funny thing now is: the death balls are happening even when there's no CV in the game.

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8 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

I went back to the Cleveland back the day because I was sick of RTS CVs and the Cleveland was probably the most powerful AA ship for its tier.  I spent about 100 games trying in vain to use AA in an active/"offensive" manner.  The speed of planes makes it almost impossible to maneuver into an AA position.  The CV has to intentionally fly into your aura for you to do any significant damage.  On rare occasions they might blunder into you but for the most part what bringing an AA cruiser buys you is the CV ignoring you.  Which then, ironically, makes bringing Defensive AA kind of pointless.  

If it wasn't so sad and pathetic, it'd be kind of funny.

 

 

 

Or you bring your AA specked ship into the game 3 times in a row and there's no CVs so you play another ship you like with weak AA and there's 2 CVs in the game . 

Edited by clammboy
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