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vorlonagent

CV: Poor AA vs plane mechanics make for poor experience

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My experience with CVs is primarily Mid-Tier.  6's and 8's.  I am aware that Tier 10 is different.

That said, I have decided that I hate CVs as they currently are. 

Every non-USA ship in my port must be ,optimized to deal with Carriers whether they show up in a game or not.  The alternative is being repeatedly and endlessly dropped with whatever a CV player's favorite toy is.  Usually torpedoes.   I was in a Nelson with an Iron duke close at hand.  The enemy Furious had no fear of our combined AA and could drop first me then the ID repeatedly.  The Nelson's AA was too weak to effectively punish the Furious' torp bombers, taking 6/7 torps from his first attack and 5/7 from his two back-to-back attacks.  He then launched a third run against the ID and that plus inbound fire was quickly it for him.  

There is no effective counterplay against planes.  It's all AA RNG and CV player skill at dodging flak bursts.  I as the ship being attacked have a very small role in my own defense.  When a ship's (especially a battleship's) AA is poor, attempting to dodge the first torpedo attack merely sets up easy second and third attacks   It's not fun to play against because watching for torp planes and skill at dodging their attacks is only rewarded with 1, maybe 2 less torp hits than simply driving in a straight line.  My frustration is multiplied by having a CV throw wave after wave of the same type of attack plane at me.  

I am not looking for invulnerability from air attack.  I would simply like a less miserable experience playing against planes at Tiers 6-8.  

I want a better way of regulating how fast a carrier player can reuse a type of plane than attrition from the last strike.  Going against a ship with poor AA, it doesn't seem like enough planes get shot down to cut into the CV's reserve supply of planes combined with CV readying new planes.  An attack squadron, like nearly every other weapon in WoWs, should have a cooldown timer before they could be launched again. 

I would like some kind of active role in defending my ship, though I am at a loss for what that would be.  AA really has to remain an automated defense system.  I really can't afford to play an anti-air minigame and aim/fire main battery guns and maneuver.  That's simply too much split concentration.  Maybe a return to marking plane groups for AA attention as existed in the RTS CV system.  Don't know how behind that I am.  Just thinking out loud.  It at least rewards heads-up play.

Edited by vorlonagent
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This is the second post of a "cv" player asking for cv nerf. A pattern is forning and it looks like DD players have gotten all the nerf and now our pretending to be somthing they are not.

The cv has been hit hard enough. Us and ijn rocktes are pointless. The DB are the inly weapon againt DD now.

You as a "cv" player want that taken away?

You may be sencere but I have to wonder. No and I mean NO other post has ever been about nerfing the ship they play. I have never seen a DD player asking for smoke to be nerfed or a CL asking for longer reload time. 

It just seems fishy!!!

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Nelson has bad AA so it normal that you get attacked , when every other ship has good AA you go for the weak one in this case your Nelson 

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2 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

This is the second post of a "cv" player asking for cv nerf. A pattern is forning and it looks like DD players have gotten all the nerf and now our pretending to be somthing they are not.

The cv has been hit hard enough. Us and ijn rocktes are pointless. The DB are the inly weapon againt DD now.

You as a "cv" player want that taken away?

You may be sencere but I have to wonder. No and I mean NO other post has ever been about nerfing the ship they play. I have never seen a DD player asking for smoke to be nerfed or a CL asking for longer reload time. 

It just seems fishy!!!

The OP is not a CV player, four co-op matches in them, at all. I get the feeling that the OP is sailing off on their own and the CV players are tearing them up for doing that.

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4 minutes ago, jags_domain said:

This is the second post of a "cv" player asking for cv nerf. A pattern is forning and it looks like DD players have gotten all the nerf and now our pretending to be somthing they are not.

The cv has been hit hard enough. Us and ijn rocktes are pointless. The DB are the inly weapon againt DD now.

You as a "cv" player want that taken away?

You may be sencere but I have to wonder. No and I mean NO other post has ever been about nerfing the ship they play. I have never seen a DD player asking for smoke to be nerfed or a CL asking for longer reload time. 

It just seems fishy!!!

Are you sure the op plays CV. You might want to go look again.

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I've long argued that the broken element of the CV rework is a lack of AA interactivity.

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AA is so over buffed right now its not even funny.  T6-8 CV can lose entire squadrons at the drop of a hat.  Just cause the nelsons AA sucks does not mean CV need nerfed or AA needs buffed.  If I play a ship with no AA and there is a CV i fully expect to be the soul focused target, its logic.   The Hak has been hit hard by nerfs and so have all other carriers, to the point almost no one plays them, prolly even less people then before the rework.

OP you are way off base.

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44 minutes ago, vorlonagent said:

My experience with CVs is primarily Mid-Tier.  6's and 8's.  I am aware that Tier 10 is different.

That said, I have decided that I hate CVs as they currently are. 

Every non-USA ship in my port must be ,optimized to deal with Carriers whether they show up in a game or not.  The alternative is being repeatedly and endlessly dropped with whatever a CV player's favorite toy is.  Usually torpedoes.   I was in a Nelson with an Iron duke close at hand.  The enemy Furious had no fear of our combined AA and could drop first me then the ID repeatedly.  The Nelson's AA was too weak to effectively punish the Furious' torp bombers, taking 6/7 torps from his first attack and 5/7 from his two back-to-back attacks.  He then launched a third run against the ID and that plus inbound fire was quickly it for him.  

There is no effective counterplay against planes.  It's all AA RNG and CV player skill at dodging flak bursts.  I as the ship being attacked have a very small role in my own defense.  When a ship's (especially a battleship's) AA is poor, attempting to dodge the first torpedo attack merely sets up easy second and third attacks   It's not fun to play against because watching for torp planes and skill at dodging their attacks is only rewarded with 1, maybe 2 less torp hits than simply driving in a straight line.  My frustration is multiplied by having a CV throw wave after wave of the same type of attack plane at me.  

I am not looking for invulnerability from air attack.  I would simply like a less miserable experience playing against planes at Tiers 6-8.  

I want a better way of regulating how fast a carrier player can reuse a type of plane than attrition from the last strike.  Going against a ship with poor AA, it doesn't seem like enough planes get shot down to cut into the CV's reserve supply of planes combined with CV readying new planes.  An attack squadron, like nearly every other weapon in WoWs, should have a cooldown timer before they could be launched again. 

I would like some kind of active role in defending my ship, though I am at a loss for what that would be.  AA really has to remain an automated defense system.  I really can't afford to play an anti-air minigame and aim/fire main battery guns and maneuver.  That's simply too much split concentration.  Maybe a return to marking plane groups for AA attention as existed in the RTS CV system.  Don't know how behind that I am.  Just thinking out loud.  It at least rewards heads-up play.

I am pretty sure I was the Furious in the game you are talking about and if that was the case; I focused you because you were the closest target and more or less isolated with the only other ship near you being the Iron Duke. You made very little attempt to dodge the TBs and frankly were an easy target. If you don’t want to be focused by the CV then don’t isolate yourself or make yourself a target worth bombing...

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OP might have been in a horrible position (weak AA ship with only another weak AA ship for help), but he does bring up some valid points.  Having finished my Ranger grind from scratch I can definitely say the TBs at that tier have an extremely easy time setting up drops.  The aiming times are so short, the penalties for maneuver so small, and the planes are so maneuverable that it's an easy matter to lock in a BBs path with torps, circle around, and get a perfect drop on him, all within 4-5km of the ship.  Because you're constantly turning the flak is almost a non issue as well.  If the target ship is a BB,  there is little a player can do to mitigate the damage taken - it's all in the hands of the automatic AA.  I can't imagine this is a particularly fun experience for the target.

That being said I do think CVs have their place.  Perhaps the aim adjustment penalties could be brought up to t8 levels for the t6 TBs so chain dropping before the target can maneuver isn't as feasible?

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> Plays low AA ships

> Surprised when a ship that is countered by strong AA attacks you

Should I start complaining because DDs I don't see are torping me when I play BBs and I don't have a method to personally spot them? (I mean people already do this, but stop whining about your counters and just adapt to it ffs)

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43 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

I've long argued that the broken element of the CV rework is a lack of AA interactivity.

The problem is AA doesn't require you to even change course to use it. It is just set and forget brain dead garbage. The sector system is pointless because you don't lose anything by having it set to the wrong sector and it can be switched so easily it basically means any AA ship with the right Captains perks has +25% AA all round not just in 1 sector.

If they changed it so high level AA ships had to maneuver to keep aircraft in the reinforced sector by making the sector a 75% buff not 25% and also increased the switching time then that is when the players skill in using the AA has to come in. If they leave it as 100% all round it should struggle big time to do anything to aircraft and the flak bubbles should be halved in the sectors not reinforced. This should also include high AA Battleships and Destroyers.

There is also a problem with ships that produce walls of flak by themselves. I don't mind a wall of flak if 2 or 3 ships have grouped together but 1 on its own should not be capable of it ever.

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Or they coukld have just left well enough alone, spent two years worth of time and effort on things players actually wanted, (fixes to some of the stupidity of bots in Co-op... you know; that mode lots of people play instead of Randoms? Quality of life UI improvements, click boxes to mount/demount signals; more maps; more game modes,) and avoided the entire biological byproducts storm that has been the last six weeks.

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2 hours ago, QinsCoCoPops said:

The problem is AA doesn't require you to even change course to use it. It is just set and forget brain dead garbage. The sector system is pointless because you don't lose anything by having it set to the wrong sector and it can be switched so easily it basically means any AA ship with the right Captains perks has +25% AA all round not just in 1 sector.

If they changed it so high level AA ships had to maneuver to keep aircraft in the reinforced sector by making the sector a 75% buff not 25% and also increased the switching time then that is when the players skill in using the AA has to come in. If they leave it as 100% all round it should struggle big time to do anything to aircraft and the flak bubbles should be halved in the sectors not reinforced. This should also include high AA Battleships and Destroyers.

There is also a problem with ships that produce walls of flak by themselves. I don't mind a wall of flak if 2 or 3 ships have grouped together but 1 on its own should not be capable of it ever.

Different ship classes have different sector reinforcement amounts and delays, FYI. You can also use MFAA to further increase the amount of AA shifted by prioritizing a sector, abs reduce the time to do so.

Edited by Frenotx

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3 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

AA is so over buffed right now its not even funny. 

Those who would tend to disagree with your statement should play a few matches in a CV and face early-game AA for themselves. Dodge all you like, with only a few exceptions, almost everything out there is going to tear up your squadron before you can get in more than a token strike. It's only in the late game when enough HE has been fired to deplete ships of AA modules and consumables that you can start getting in some good dive bomber and torpedo strikes. 

Edited by Snargfargle
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6 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

My experience with CVs is primarily Mid-Tier.  6's and 8's.  I am aware that Tier 10 is different.

That said, I have decided that I hate CVs as they currently are. 

Every non-USA ship in my port must be ,optimized to deal with Carriers whether they show up in a game or not.  The alternative is being repeatedly and endlessly dropped with whatever a CV player's favorite toy is.  Usually torpedoes.   I was in a Nelson with an Iron duke close at hand.  The enemy Furious had no fear of our combined AA and could drop first me then the ID repeatedly.  The Nelson's AA was too weak to effectively punish the Furious' torp bombers, taking 6/7 torps from his first attack and 5/7 from his two back-to-back attacks.  He then launched a third run against the ID and that plus inbound fire was quickly it for him.  

There is no effective counterplay against planes.  It's all AA RNG and CV player skill at dodging flak bursts.  I as the ship being attacked have a very small role in my own defense.  When a ship's (especially a battleship's) AA is poor, attempting to dodge the first torpedo attack merely sets up easy second and third attacks   It's not fun to play against because watching for torp planes and skill at dodging their attacks is only rewarded with 1, maybe 2 less torp hits than simply driving in a straight line.  My frustration is multiplied by having a CV throw wave after wave of the same type of attack plane at me.  

I am not looking for invulnerability from air attack.  I would simply like a less miserable experience playing against planes at Tiers 6-8.  

I want a better way of regulating how fast a carrier player can reuse a type of plane than attrition from the last strike.  Going against a ship with poor AA, it doesn't seem like enough planes get shot down to cut into the CV's reserve supply of planes combined with CV readying new planes.  An attack squadron, like nearly every other weapon in WoWs, should have a cooldown timer before they could be launched again. 

I would like some kind of active role in defending my ship, though I am at a loss for what that would be.  AA really has to remain an automated defense system.  I really can't afford to play an anti-air minigame and aim/fire main battery guns and maneuver.  That's simply too much split concentration.  Maybe a return to marking plane groups for AA attention as existed in the RTS CV system.  Don't know how behind that I am.  Just thinking out loud.  It at least rewards heads-up play.

So it took half the game for the enemy CV to do ANYTHING to a lower tier battleship...and the deciding factor in the actual kill was the other surface ship fire?

You took 11 torpedo hits and didnt die...and you want to NERF the CV?

Are you serious?

No.

Just no.

You are ALREADY invulnerable to that carrier...stop being a BBaby.

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7 hours ago, JToney3449 said:

AA is so over buffed right now its not even funny.  T6-8 CV can lose entire squadrons at the drop of a hat.  Just cause the nelsons AA sucks does not mean CV need nerfed or AA needs buffed.  If I play a ship with no AA and there is a CV i fully expect to be the soul focused target, its logic.   The Hak has been hit hard by nerfs and so have all other carriers, to the point almost no one plays them, prolly even less people then before the rework.

OP you are way off base.

 

AA has been nerfed so hard that enemy CVs can simply ignore it on many ships, but of course the CV mafia won't be happy until they can YOLO drop on a Des Moines in the middle of a cluster of other AA ships with his Def AA going.

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AA is broken, it still shoots your planes through islands like literally you can see the AA ammunition's coming through the island mass. You're just being salty because a CV saw a weak AA ship that was basically alone as Iron Duke AA is like non existent. If you were a Nelson next to a cruiser or a higher tier BB, you probably wouldn't have been bombed. If you're going out solo don't complain when a CV focuses you due to the AA around you being weak compared to the rest of your teams AA cluster fest.

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2 minutes ago, Kephess said:

AA is broken, it still shoots your planes through islands like literally you can see the AA ammunition's coming through the island mass. You're just being salty because a CV saw a weak AA ship that was basically alone as Iron Duke AA is like non existent. If you were a Nelson next to a cruiser or a higher tier BB, you probably wouldn't have been bombed. If you're going out solo don't complain when a CV focuses you due to the AA around you being weak compared to the rest of your teams AA cluster fest.

Don't start with an obvious lie if you want me to take you seriously.

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8 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

My experience with CVs is primarily Mid-Tier.  6's and 8's.  I am aware that Tier 10 is different.

That said, I have decided that I hate CVs as they currently are. 

Every non-USA ship in my port must be ,optimized to deal with Carriers whether they show up in a game or not.  The alternative is being repeatedly and endlessly dropped with whatever a CV player's favorite toy is.  Usually torpedoes.   I was in a Nelson with an Iron duke close at hand.  The enemy Furious had no fear of our combined AA and could drop first me then the ID repeatedly.  The Nelson's AA was too weak to effectively punish the Furious' torp bombers, taking 6/7 torps from his first attack and 5/7 from his two back-to-back attacks.  He then launched a third run against the ID and that plus inbound fire was quickly it for him.  

There is no effective counterplay against planes.  It's all AA RNG and CV player skill at dodging flak bursts.  I as the ship being attacked have a very small role in my own defense.  When a ship's (especially a battleship's) AA is poor, attempting to dodge the first torpedo attack merely sets up easy second and third attacks   It's not fun to play against because watching for torp planes and skill at dodging their attacks is only rewarded with 1, maybe 2 less torp hits than simply driving in a straight line.  My frustration is multiplied by having a CV throw wave after wave of the same type of attack plane at me.  

I am not looking for invulnerability from air attack.  I would simply like a less miserable experience playing against planes at Tiers 6-8.  

I want a better way of regulating how fast a carrier player can reuse a type of plane than attrition from the last strike.  Going against a ship with poor AA, it doesn't seem like enough planes get shot down to cut into the CV's reserve supply of planes combined with CV readying new planes.  An attack squadron, like nearly every other weapon in WoWs, should have a cooldown timer before they could be launched again. 

I would like some kind of active role in defending my ship, though I am at a loss for what that would be.  AA really has to remain an automated defense system.  I really can't afford to play an anti-air minigame and aim/fire main battery guns and maneuver.  That's simply too much split concentration.  Maybe a return to marking plane groups for AA attention as existed in the RTS CV system.  Don't know how behind that I am.  Just thinking out loud.  It at least rewards heads-up play.

4 games in co op with t4 cv's is not enough to know how to play the class. my advice to you is if in a dd turn off your AA if in a cruiser use sector AA. if in a BB well lets be honest the cv will probley get bored before you die.

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1 minute ago, Capitan_Incognito said:

Don't start with an obvious lie if you want me to take you seriously.

Actually, he's not lying.  AA does shoot through islands.  Maybe you should take the time to see for yourself instead of showcasing your ignorance.   

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7 hours ago, QinsCoCoPops said:

If they changed it so high level AA ships had to maneuver to keep aircraft in the reinforced sector by making the sector a 75% buff not 25%....

.... then people would complain (more than they already do) that when attacked by planes, they had to pay too much attention to planes, at the expense of ship to ship combat.

IMO, the bonuses are as they are for a reason. Note that the more nimble the ship type, the bigger the bonus. A DD gets +50%, because throwing their ship all over the place is pretty much second nature anyway, and doesn't cause the problems for a DD like it does a BB.

A BB only gets 25%, because it's not supposed to dance all over the place to give its guns a chance to kill planes. Sure, you can maneuver to keep planes on your strong side, but it's not typically critical.

Plus, if you leave a BB's unreinforced side too weak, planes will just take a little longer to make sure they come in on the weak side, because they can outmaneuver the BB.

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8 hours ago, vorlonagent said:

My experience with CVs is primarily Mid-Tier.  6's and 8's.  I am aware that Tier 10 is different.

That said, I have decided that I hate CVs as they currently are. 

Every non-USA ship in my port must be ,optimized to deal with Carriers whether they show up in a game or not.  The alternative is being repeatedly and endlessly dropped with whatever a CV player's favorite toy is.  Usually torpedoes.   I was in a Nelson with an Iron duke close at hand.  The enemy Furious had no fear of our combined AA and could drop first me then the ID repeatedly.  The Nelson's AA was too weak to effectively punish the Furious' torp bombers, taking 6/7 torps from his first attack and 5/7 from his two back-to-back attacks.  He then launched a third run against the ID and that plus inbound fire was quickly it for him.  

There is no effective counterplay against planes.  It's all AA RNG and CV player skill at dodging flak bursts.  I as the ship being attacked have a very small role in my own defense.  When a ship's (especially a battleship's) AA is poor, attempting to dodge the first torpedo attack merely sets up easy second and third attacks   It's not fun to play against because watching for torp planes and skill at dodging their attacks is only rewarded with 1, maybe 2 less torp hits than simply driving in a straight line.  My frustration is multiplied by having a CV throw wave after wave of the same type of attack plane at me.  

I am not looking for invulnerability from air attack.  I would simply like a less miserable experience playing against planes at Tiers 6-8.  

I want a better way of regulating how fast a carrier player can reuse a type of plane than attrition from the last strike.  Going against a ship with poor AA, it doesn't seem like enough planes get shot down to cut into the CV's reserve supply of planes combined with CV readying new planes.  An attack squadron, like nearly every other weapon in WoWs, should have a cooldown timer before they could be launched again. 

I would like some kind of active role in defending my ship, though I am at a loss for what that would be.  AA really has to remain an automated defense system.  I really can't afford to play an anti-air minigame and aim/fire main battery guns and maneuver.  That's simply too much split concentration.  Maybe a return to marking plane groups for AA attention as existed in the RTS CV system.  Don't know how behind that I am.  Just thinking out loud.  It at least rewards heads-up play.

1963258249_tenor-2019-03-10T190834_469.gif.341bdfab0e017699a2a63b4d8470b028.gif

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8 hours ago, Edgecase said:

I've long argued that the broken element of the CV rework is a lack of AA interactivity.

I completely agree with this...WG is always going to have this problem until they introduce some skill base AA mechanic for Surface ship drivers that allows them to feel involved in their own defense.  All that being said....  OP is not accurate either.   

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CVs will always fail. AA won't matter. The only people playing CVs will be a tiny group of T10 players and the occasional T8 premium hold out. 

 

Edited by HeathenForay

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