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Snargfargle

CV > DD? No: DD > CV, Carefree DD no Fear the CV!

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Have any dedicated DD players stopped to consider that if BBs and CL/CAs weren't such AA fortresses, those of us that play CVs would gladly go after the boats with the bigger health pools? And I have to say, DDs are considered the easy targets purely because of their AA values, DDs that are actually maneuvering are fairly hard to hit, even with DBs or at least that's been my experience so far, but I've only gotten as high as Ranger in the US CV line, the other lines don't really have DBs that are well suited to DDs killing. I've been working with the IJN line since day 1 of the rework (and made it to T10 in time to enjoy that week where Hakuryu was actually fun) and I've got the RN CVs up to T8. USN DBs are the best thing for DDs that a CV has to work with right now. I honestly never got why the rockets were deemed OP, each one hits like a DD shell, it's just concentrated into a couple of bursts rather than the pop-pop-pop that DDs can put out for much more sustained fire and half the time only half of the darn things hit because RNG is a huge troll. 

I'd also like to point out to the guy going on about the '200 kt mega scouts', no plane in the game can sustain 200 kts indefinitely, even using the boost tapping trick. Yes, CV planes are the best thing for scouting in the game, but most of the time if you are actually focusing on scouting, you're not dropping ordnance and therefore not 'earning your keep'. Scouting is not terribly well rewarded in my experience and CVs are darn expensive to run right now, it's not a sustainable way to go. Also, the planes are far from disposable, it hurts to lose them and not just in DPS (DPS isn't even the right term, it takes so long to setup good strikes that it's more accurate to use DPM). The fewer planes left in the group, the easier it is to shoot the rest of them down thanks to the goofy AA mechanics.

Lastly I'd like to point out that people that don't play all of the classes in an effort to find the strengths and weaknesses of each are really doing themselves a disservice. It really does help quite a bit. It also shows that something that you might think has everything going for it actually has glaring flaws that take skill and knowledge to compensate for. There's a reason I don't consider any class to be my 'main' class, I think of myself as more of a jack-of-all-trades and I'm reasonably good at pretty much everything. 

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1 hour ago, Sumseaman said:

Ocean, where every player looks at each other and says 'What the hell do I do?'.

Slumming in Atlanta once and Ocean came up...

...sigh....

...watching the minimap like a hawk, paying close attention to my position and concealment.

Spotted...

...nobody really close...

...DESTROYER.

Started pushing into the backfield and sure enough; not one, but TWO destroyers.

Of course they were not amused, and I quickly worked to justify those feelings.

I just played support and back guard that game, but learned more lessons that game than I think any other single game up to that point.

Because of that, despite so many hating it, and my being in an Atlanta that game, I like Ocean.

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See. Killed by a Gearing. Once a DD is close to you there is nothing that a CV can do to stop it.

image.thumb.png.238e38613880f4a08a661bbae3179151.png

Now, if the DDs are far away and you can maneuver, plus you have a CL helping you, then you can sink them. Those two kills were actually DDs but each had very little health left when I bombed them, and I had to bomb them four times each to do that damage.

image.png.7b05fc53a986191156657c98b19881a8.png

Edited by Snargfargle

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13 minutes ago, Gaishu_Isshoku said:

Yes, DDs definitely don't have to fear CVs. Carry on.

https://streamable.com/ysdow

Well, you are among the best CV players in the game. We are talking about mere mortals here. :Smile_veryhappy:

That was a lucky shot too. Usually I won't get a bomb hit if that's all of the reticle that's on the ship.

image.png.23f7bee1350555f3b51c62472e57bde4.png

And 16,000 damage in a single strike is just amazing. I'm averaging 2500 per bomb. I think RNG was very favorable here.

Edited by Snargfargle

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I really dislike how one person has a good RNG roll and that's all that's focused on.

I really dislike how one person seems to be super awesome massively good at a game, being an outlier over the general stats, yet, because he can do it everyone else is OP at it.

I really dislike how no matter what, 80% of the population of this game will scream about CVs being OP even when they can't do more than a single citadel hit on a ship in one pass, which takes 2-3 minutes to accomplish, and extreme skill and luck to boot.

I enjoy playing CV to break the monotony of grinding surface ships. I want them to be fun and not a head bang on the desk experience though, and I just think we keep going towards the head bang part and not the fun with all the changes due to the whines.

 

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43 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

That was a lucky shot too. Usually I won't get a bomb hit if that's all of the reticle that's on the ship. 

 

23 minutes ago, TurboT said:

I really dislike how one person has a good RNG roll and that's all that's focused on. 

That drop wasn't RNG. It's a replicable technique that WG will hopefully fix. I use it fairly frequently on stream. Dropping near the end of the drop timer at high speed will concentrate all the bombs near the tip of the reticle.

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I spent 20 minutes in the Training Room bombing Gearings. Here was an average result:

Reticle as centered as I could get it, bombs released just as the counter turned red, 3696 damage. 

image.png.46d8ee383b0d41b2bf178aeddca27a8a.png

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1 minute ago, Gaishu_Isshoku said:

 

That drop wasn't RNG. It's a replicable technique that WG will hopefully fix. I use it fairly frequently on stream. Dropping near the end of the drop timer at high speed will concentrate all the bombs near the tip of the reticle.

Oh. See that is one reason why you are so good -- you notice things like this. Back to the training room.

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52 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

Well, you are among the best CV players in the game. We are talking about mere mortals here. :Smile_veryhappy:

That was a lucky shot too. Usually I won't get a bomb hit if that's all of the reticle that's on the ship.

image.png.23f7bee1350555f3b51c62472e57bde4.png

And 16,000 damage in a single strike is just amazing. I'm averaging 2500 per bomb. I think RNG was very favorable here.

Do you think there might be many players in between you and Gaishu in terms of CV skill level? 

Because yes Gaishu is very, very good to put it mildly. But you are also far from the average CV player. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Gaishu_Isshoku said:

That drop wasn't RNG. It's a replicable technique that WG will hopefully fix

Oh, my gosh! If the DD Mains see this they are really going to have a fit. I could probably tweak this for more damage but in a few minutes I got a perfectly repeatable 9090 damage per bomber strike.

image.png.78e599bc34512800f9c62d919a01f9d4.png

 

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Just because the enemy CVs you run into suck doesn't mean everything is fine

 

And as Gaishu has said, low dropping is an abusable technique that is replicable and you can consistently get at least 4 bomb hits on a DD if done correctly. 
The key in doing it is that you must boost during the dive and drop in the last 0.5 seconds. 

Edited by Ayanami_Kai_Ni
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32 minutes ago, Ayanami_Kai_Ni said:

as Gaishu has said, low dropping is an abusable technique that is replicable and you can consistently get at least 4 bomb hits on a DD if done correctly. 

Since they are undoubtedly going to remove the glitch in a patch I'm not going it use it. However, it was neat to play around with in the Training Room.

I did something in a CV just now that I didn't think even possible after the nerf patches -- get a Devastating Strike on a tier X Battleship!

image.thumb.png.6539ec07198896af5406f440c312b820.png

 

 

Edited by Snargfargle

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49 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Do you think there might be many players in between you and Gaishu in terms of CV skill level? 

Because yes Gaishu is very, very good to put it mildly. But you are also far from the average CV player. 

 

Yes. This was a game I was in with Snarg after the .8.0.1 hotfix. Note the Snarg in the Midway then. Sorry Snarg you are above most when it comes to DDs and CVs. That being said same rules still apply.

 

Untitled5.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Yes. This was a game I was in with Snarg after the .8.0.1 hotfix. Note the Snarg in the Midway then. Sorry Snarg you are above most when it comes to DDs and CVs. That being said same rules still apply.

 

Untitled5.jpg

He's actually well below most. There are 325 new Midway players with over 80 battles. When sorted by WR Snargfargle is #297 on that list with a 38.1% WR. 

So while Gaishu devastating DDs with dive bombers is certainly outside of the norm Snarg's constant assertions that DD/CV balance is colosally out of whack and CVs are helpless against DDs isn't necessarily reflective of the average Midway player's experience either.

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17 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

He's actually well below most. There are 325 new Midway players with over 80 battles. When sorted by WR Snargfargle is #297 on that list with a 38.1% WR. 

I've been wondering why my CV win rate is so low as I'm now averaging nearly 100 k and a couple of ship kills per battle. I think it is because I was really poor with them as I was learning the new mechanic. I'm still learning but am constantly getting better. However, I still seem to lose most games. This was the last game I played tonight and I think I did fairly well, but it still was a defeat.

image.thumb.png.6539ec07198896af5406f440c312b820.png

 

Edited by Snargfargle

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19 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

He's actually well below most. There are 325 new Midway players with over 80 battles. When sorted by WR Snargfargle is #297 on that list with a 38.1% WR. 

So while Gaishu devastating DDs with dive bombers is certainly outside of the norm Snarg's constant assertions that DD/CV balance is colosally out of whack and CVs are helpless against DDs isn't necessarily reflective of the average Midway player's experience either.

Well when we played I thought he was better than I was. Turns out I'm crapper than I thought. I haven't leveled tier 10s yet though. 

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7 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

I've been wondering why my CV win rate is so low as I'm now averaging nearly 100 k and a couple of ship kills per battle. I think it is because I was really poor with them as I was learning the new mechanic. I'm still learning but am constantly getting better. However, I still seem to lose most games. This was the last game I played tonight and I think I did fairly well, but it still was a defeat.

image.thumb.png.6539ec07198896af5406f440c312b820.png

 

Then why are you assuming the reason you struggle so much with DDs in your CV is because of balance issues? Couldn't it be you just aren't very good at engaging them?

How could DD/CV interactions possibly be considered balanced if you had an easy time damaging and sinking them in your Midway given how many Midway players are better in the ship than you? 

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8 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Well when we played I thought he was better than I was. Turns out I'm crapper than I thought. I haven't leveled tier 10s yet though. 

Everyone has outliers. My point was not that Snarg must be a terrible CV player every game or that he can't get better but that, on average, he is a very weak Midway player in comparison to his peers. Making balance conclusions based on how the least effective players in a ship perform is crazy. The least effective players in a ship should struggle. If they have an easy time you've created an OP monster. 

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18 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

Then why are you assuming the reason you struggle so much with DDs in your CV is because of balance issues? Couldn't it be you just aren't very good at engaging them?

How could DD/CV interactions possibly be considered balanced if you had an easy time damaging and sinking them in your Midway given how many Midway players are better in the ship than you? 

I'm not sure that you are reading my posts but the replies to my posts. Either that or you are remembering my really old posts, the ones that I wrote during the broken patch that had a bug with AA being so strong.

I think that things are pretty much balanced now regarding CVs. It's the "DD Mafia" who think that CVs kill every DD they see instantly. The only thing I'd like to see balance-wise is a slight nerfing of overlapping AA fire (planned for an upcoming patch). On the DD side, and although I like it personally for my planes, they also are going to remove of RPF from planes in an upcoming patch, which will make DDs much harder to locate.

I don't have an "easy" time in my Midway. In fact, I truly sucked with it for a couple of months. It's only recently, and with a lot of practice, that I'm starting to get the hang of it. 

Edited by Snargfargle

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8 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I only shot down one plane because the CV could never find me in my Gearing with its 2.6 km detection for planes. Our Tier VIII DD also didn't have many issues in a CV game. We both solo capped, fighting off the other team's DDs to do so, and played normally as DDs.

image.thumb.png.79cd74aa00e847f5b4ccee5502e9a238.png

 

 

 

 

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I'm doing fairly good with DDs since the rework. Since it's been pointed out what a sucky player I am, then if I'm doing OK in DDs it must be that they are not really having as many problems since the CV rework as some people in this forum seem to imply they do.

After 10,000 games my overall stats are not going to change much no matter what I do. This is the way averages work. However, I can look at trends and see if I'm improving or getting worse. I'm happy that my average damage and experience are getting slightly better as time goes on. I could probably make these values go up more if I were to play something like high-damage tier X battleships but I like to play all sorts of ships and tiers. 

image.thumb.png.094c6fe12da716e2172d954eba6dadf8.png 

 

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9 minutes ago, Malamute_Kid said:

 

Been there, done that. That avatar to the left is me when I was much younger.

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this post is going off the few posts above this.

 

Personally after playing with and against(and watching streams), i expect that WG will nerf the HE bombers for the US in one way or another.  From the exploit(?) above, to changing the min dive height, to the dispersion on the bombs in general.  They nuke anything they hit, and it isn't too hard to land hits with them.  They are universally useful unlike other bombers. Out of all of the types of bombers in the game, they are the one i fear the most.   I would say i am still new to the new CVs(only experience is post rework, no PTS) and can manage to have some fairly consistent good games out of them.   I just finished grinding the midway, with 80k average damage with a 57% WR in my lexi.(had i not been so new with them, i think i could of managed to win 3-5 more games that were close and loses)  Apparently according to one site, that puts me at #37 of NA players. i have a hard time believing i am that good with CVs to be that high.    I would imagine if i was playing a midway, i wouldn't have any trouble doing far more damage than that. I haven't tried the tiny tims yet.  I heard they were good.   Their results seem really hit and miss tho from watching videos or being bombed by them.  Especially if you get a pen for no damage. HVARs seem more consistent and can pen 32mm of armor.(they can smack larger ships for 10-15k)

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11 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

I'm not sure that you are reading my posts but the replies to my posts. Either that or you are remembering my really old posts, the ones that I wrote during the broken patch that had a bug with AA being so strong.

I think that things are pretty much balanced now regarding CVs. It's the "DD Mafia" who think that CVs kill every DD they see instantly. The only thing I'd like to see balance-wise is a slight nerfing of overlapping AA fire (planned for an upcoming patch). On the DD side, and although I like it personally for my planes, they also are going to remove of RPF from planes in an upcoming patch, which will make DDs much harder to locate.

I don't have an "easy" time in my Midway. In fact, I truly sucked with it for a couple of months. It's only recently, and with a lot of practice, that I'm starting to get the hang of it. 

 

14 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

See. Killed by a Gearing. Once a DD is close to you there is nothing that a CV can do to stop it.

image.thumb.png.238e38613880f4a08a661bbae3179151.png

Now, if the DDs are far away and you can maneuver, plus you have a CL helping you, then you can sink them. Those two kills were actually DDs but each had very little health left when I bombed them, and I had to bomb them four times each to do that damage.

image.png.7b05fc53a986191156657c98b19881a8.png

This is literally on the same page. Eight days ago (the same patch) you made a topic complaining about how CV nerfs have made DDs "nearly impervious to plane attack if they are played properly" and arguing that your Midway was helpless against a Gearing and Harugumo.

Other recent examples: "Dodge all you like, with only a few exceptions, almost everything out there is going to tear up your squadron before you can get in more than a token strike."

"Once a DD is within firing range of you there's not much you can do to stop it if the player has half a brain and keeps moving."

"CVs have been nerfed too much versus DDs that its almost an accident if they get a hit on you nowadays."

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