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CV > DD? No: DD > CV, Carefree DD no Fear the CV!

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Just now, Sumseaman said:

Well I certainly try to drop the fighters where they need to be. It gives all that bristling AA armament on cruisers something to do too. You are a top DM player. You know that you're more the counter than any other ship.

How well did I counter the enemy CV in that match?  I countered him for all of about 1 minute and then from that point on he just stayed outside my aura.   Which left him approximately 99% of the battlefield to do whatever he felt like doing on that day.

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1 minute ago, CommodoreKang said:

CVs have fundamentally broken the game from the very, very beginning.  It was worse in some ways in the RTS mode but at least your CV could sometimes counter the enemy CV.  Now you can't even do that.  So both teams get to suffer every time they get in a CV game.  

RTS carriers were a lot more flexible and I find it incredible that any surface combatant prefers 3 squadrons dropping bombs and torps on them, rather than what it's developed into here, where the carrier is effectively a super destroyer. Take a look at typical damage now, and all this hullabaloo about scouting and turning the fleet into a fish ball are just people who can't adapt and overcome this weak challenge.

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3 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

How well did I counter the enemy CV in that match?  I countered him for all of about 1 minute and then from that point on he just stayed outside my aura.   Which left him approximately 99% of the battlefield to do whatever he felt like doing on that day.

You aren't wrong about that. Carriers need usable fighters for cap and general fleet defense.

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1 minute ago, CommodoreKang said:

How well did I counter the enemy CV in that match?  I countered him for all of about 1 minute and then from that point on he just stayed outside my aura.   Which left him approximately 99% of the battlefield to do whatever he felt like doing on that day.

It's not on you. Other players should be aware of what you are and what flank you are going to take advantage of that aura. I've seen many a twit Musashi run off on their own, away from the cruisers then point the finger at the carrier for not being there to dump fighters on demand.

@Snargfargle keeps providing solid screenies/proof of matches that shows carriers keep the game more dynamic. There's a lot of truth to it. You just can't play like you did pre 0.8. 

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1 minute ago, cavscout1739 said:

RTS carriers were a lot more flexible and I find it incredible that any surface combatant prefers 3 squadrons dropping bombs and torps on them, rather than what it's developed into here, where the carrier is effectively a super destroyer. Take a look at typical damage now, and all this hullabaloo about scouting and turning the fleet into a fish ball are just people who can't adapt and overcome this weak challenge.

RTS CVs fundamentally broke the game as much or more than the current version.  But RTS CVs countered each other.  That's how they "balanced" them.  Give one super OP ship to each side (or 2 or whatever).  Voila, balance.  

Now they aren't overpowered in damage.  In fact, they are anemic damage dealers.   But they are the kings of the sea in spotting.  And NOTHING can stop them from spotting any part of the map at 200 knots.  And that makes them game breakingly overpowered.

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4 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

RTS CVs fundamentally broke the game as much or more than the current version.  But RTS CVs countered each other.  That's how they "balanced" them.  Give one super OP ship to each side (or 2 or whatever).  Voila, balance.  

Now they aren't overpowered in damage.  In fact, they are anemic damage dealers.   But they are the kings of the sea in spotting.  And NOTHING can stop them from spotting any part of the map at 200 knots.  And that makes them game breakingly overpowered.

Know what carriers are good for though? Killing island campers. It's funny as hell pushing a cruiser or destroyer out broadside with torps for them to get a blat for their trouble. I've also managed to get respectable dmg out of them too.

Edited by Sumseaman

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3 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

It's not on you. Other players should be aware of what you are and what flank you are going to take advantage of that aura. I've seen many a twit Musashi run off on their own, away from the cruisers then point the finger at the carrier for not being there to dump fighters on demand.

@Snargfargle keeps providing solid screenies/proof of matches that shows carriers keep the game more dynamic. There's a lot of truth to it. You just can't play like you did pre 0.8. 

Breaking the game is fun and engaging and super dynamic I'm sure.  But it's still game breaking.  The static and island hugging game play at higher tiers is a function of damage not scaling with armor.  Adding more spotting just makes it worse.  If people are too afraid to move when there's not a CV in game, why would adding a CV that could spot you at any moment free of risk make people less afraid to be aggressive?

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40 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

It's a rock paper scissors class based competitive combat game with ships as skins.   DD-CA-BB.  Each one designed with the other in mind.  CVs are just a mini game on top of that.  If they didn't break the game, maybe you could get away with it.  But they do.  The fundamentally break the game.  You can try to pretend that hydro or radar is like flying around the battlefield in your disposable drone ships at 200mph.  But, you're only fooling yourself.  

CVs have never fit.  They nerfed them down to nothing and they still don't fit.  Because they fundamentally break the game.  Ships move at 30 knots and have a limited health pool they expend while spotting.  Planes fly 5 times that speed and you sacrifice a little DPS rather than HP to spot the entire map at will.  Completely and totally game breaking.

 

Cap them at 50-60kts and remove speed boost and all is well. Until then bring forth the mega dd: minotaur.

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10 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Know what carriers are good for though? Killing island campers. It's funny as hell pushing a cruiser or destroyer out broadside with torps for them to get a blat for their trouble. I've also managed to get respectable dmg out of them too.

LOL see my last comment.  Let me ask you this. 

Why are there islands in the game?  Why is every single island mirrored on both sides?  And why does every island have a strategic flank as well as a holding point?  And why is every holding point on every island near a cap specifically situated just far enough away from that cap that if you hug tight enough you can radar the entire cap?

Coincidence or island hugger conspiracy?  Or, could it be that the devs put the islands in there specifically to camp behind?

Edited by CommodoreKang

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2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

LOL see my last comment.  Let me ask you this. 

Why are there islands in the game?  Why is every single island mirrored on both sides?  And why does every island have a strategic flank as a holding point?  And why is every holding point on every island near a cap specifically situated just far enough away from that cap that if you hug tight enough you can radar the entire cap?

Coincidence or island hugger conspiracy?  Or, could it be that the devs put the islands in there specifically to camp behind?

Oh I agree that island molestation is part of the game. I have a Mino and Salem and do it frequently. They both have great AA though so it's a battle of risk for both the carrier and cruiser. Sometimes though there are players who just sit there in a ship that has no business being there. We carrier players love you Kang! Why won't you love us back!

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4 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

LOL see my last comment.  Let me ask you this. 

Why are there islands in the game?  Why is every single island mirrored on both sides?  And why does every island have a strategic flank as well as a holding point?  And why is every holding point on every island near a cap specifically situated just far enough away from that cap that if you hug tight enough you can radar the entire cap?

Coincidence or island hugger conspiracy?  Or, could it be that the devs put the islands in there specifically to camp behind?

If everyone had the same optics as pre-radar navies, every map could be ocean.

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1 minute ago, cavscout1739 said:

If everyone had the same optics as pre-radar navies, every map could be ocean.

Let's be honest here.  The ships look and feel like WWII ships but the combat is absolutely nothing at all like actual WWII naval combat.   It's probably as close as you could get in fun shooter type game.  But, as far as capturing the real thing goes, it might as well be space invaders.

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1 minute ago, CommodoreKang said:

Let's be honest here.  The ships look and feel like WWII ships but the combat is absolutely nothing at all like actual WWII naval combat.   It's probably as close as you could get in fun shooter type game.  But, as far as capturing the real thing goes, it might as well be space invaders.

Except for the part where the action speeds up as you try to find the last destroyer.

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9 minutes ago, cavscout1739 said:

If everyone had the same optics as pre-radar navies, every map could be ocean.

Ocean, where every player looks at each other and says 'What the hell do I do?'.

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3 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Something like that.

All the complaints at all tiers about poor helpless destroyers getting bullied by carrier always made me ???

I never seemed to have trouble with being permaspotted or continually getting harassed by carriers...

...but then I played both...

...so yeah.

Yeah, I never had trouble, and every "DD is useless because CV" post, makes me ashamed to even call myself a Destroyer Main...

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6 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

Sometimes though there are players who just sit there in a ship that has no business being there. 

Except for the fact that WG put the island there for them to hide behind.  So that they can get up into the action and not immediately die.  Then you come along in your throw away spotter 200 knot mobile and get them killed even though they tried to get into the action.

10 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

 We carrier players love you Kang! Why won't you love us back!

Lol I do love you guys.  Going further, I say lets get you guys a mode of you own.  That way WG can put your damage back on as one would expect of a CV.  And then we can all have fun together.  In a mode designed handle a CV.  A mode where it makes sense for you as the CV to be the most powerful ship on a side.

Seems like a decent compromise to me...

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17 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Breaking the game 

What do you consider "breaking"? To me, it means to render something either unusable or undesirable. However, the game is still playable and people still want to play it. People are not leaving the game in droves since the rework.

There was a normal spike over the holiday and decline afterwards. Now things are back to what they were before. An active game shows natural ebbs and flows. A broken game shows a steady decline.

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34 minutes ago, Sumseaman said:

 

@Snargfargle keeps providing solid screenies/proof of matches that shows carriers keep the game more dynamic. There's a lot of truth to it. You just can't play like you did pre 0.8. 

Games with CVs suck. AA Deathballs suck. Getting attacked every thirty seconds again and again by an unethical, unfun mechanic for no other reason than that you are playing sucks. CVs add nothing good to the game.

Dont believe it? Ask all of us who have closed wallets and curtailed play. If CVs are wonderful for the game, why have so many people made those choices? And dont give me that git gud garbage. Those of us who have quit are all whales and veterans who know how to play, and we want the game we loved so much back.

 

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1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

What do you consider "breaking"? To me, it means to render something either unusable or undesirable. However, the game is still playable and people still want to play it. People are not leaving the game in droves since the rework.

There was a normal spike over the holiday and decline afterwards. Now things are back to what they were before. An active game shows natural ebbs and flows. A broken game shows a steady decline.

A non-CV game has a certain flow to it.  It might be too slow or static for some people's tastes and perhaps even mine.    A CV game is chaos.  It completely breaks the flow of the game.  CVs reinforce the blobbing mentality at best.  And at worst, the make the lemming train a strategic tactic. 

Lemming trains were becoming more successful even before the rework.  Radar spotting had a lot to do with that.  CV spotting is like radar spotting * infinity.  The only thing keeping the lemming train from becoming the go to defacto strategy is that most games don't have CVs in them.  My limited experience post rework is CVs are in about 25% of games or less.  That's the only thing saving the CV at this point.

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2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Just saying that I've sunk twice as many CVs with my Gearing as CVs have sank me. Most of the times I was sunk in my Midway it was a DD that sank me too. I really don't see what DDs are still complaining about, at least at high tiers. 

I understand where they come from, even as a CV player and part time DD and the rest. Yes, I've dodged them, yes, my CV gets torped by them, cause totally don't need easy active dodge ability, but that said just the other day I made 3 passes on a Yugumo for 8, 3 (I botched the approach, huge aim circle) and 8 hits with my Lex. Over 10k damage and dead in the water even though I had a couple of 0 pens/damage saturation - the last 8 hits also killing him as he took damage from elsewhere cause spotted and the second salvo, that killed his engine for good, meant he drifted out of his smoke. Let alone when I come screaming in with USN DB's with 1-2000 lb bombs wiping out 1/3 of their HP. Something like Gearing I avoid because it has decent AA abilities, but some of the others, really most of them that aren't USN or Russian Bias, I can ignore the AA and bully them at will when I find them. And that's after the dumb accuracy nerf.

I'd like to think some of that was me doing good, and deserving to be rewarded, same token - part of it is that CV damage really is just a bit too high in areas. Rockets for the most part I think generally need flat out lower damage (save maybe TT given lower accuracy, fewer of them, and basically lower caliber BB rounds) -but gain back the accuracy nerf they took which only helped add back to skill gap, torps I think need their damage spread out a bit more over more torps in most cases (so maybe instead of 1 torp that deals 5000 2 that deal 2500) though for fact Hak needs the accuracy changes it took undone and torp damage flat out nerfed below RTS numbers (currently they are higher than RTS), and DB's well - that depends on what bomb they are using. 

 

Some, as others have said, need to "Git Gud" and would have you believe things are cataclysmicly bad for DD's which at the moment, they aren't maybe when 8.0 first dropped they had far more an argument. Others however do have a point that there does need to be a bit of tweaking to them vs a CV. Rocket accuracy returned, but damage lowered and module HP of DD's (at least engine and steering) increased so as to be harder to knock out repeatedly should do a fair amount. 

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8 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Games with CVs suck. AA Deathballs suck. Getting attacked every thirty seconds again and again by an unethical, unfun mechanic for no other reason than that you are playing sucks. CVs add nothing good to the game.

Dont believe it? Ask all of us who have closed wallets and curtailed play. If CVs are wonderful for the game, why have so many people made those choices? And dont give me that git gud garbage. Those of us who have quit are all whales and veterans who know how to play, and we want the game we loved so much back.

 

Oh no its YOU!

I haven't closed my wallet or curtailed play but that's just me and that's the only person I can speak for.

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4 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

only shot down one plane because the CV could never find me in my Gearing with its 2.6 km detection for planes. Our Tier VIII DD also didn't have many issues in a CV game. We both solo capped, fighting off the other team's DDs to do so, and played normally as DDs.

Ok, instead of using the all around DD like the Gearing. Why not use the Shima instead ?

Its a false narrative to suggest DDs have it best or currently have a better situation then a CV.  When %90 to %95 of a CVs DMG is coming from DDs, maybe the gearing (in the right hands) is the exception.  The current in game conditions dont favor DDs against the above mentioned CV situation.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Ok, instead of using the all around DD like the Gearing. Why not use the Shima instead ?

I play what I've got. I don't have a Shima; I'm only at tier VI in the IJN DD line. 

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1 minute ago, Snargfargle said:

I play what I've got. I don't have a Shima; I'm only at tier VI in the IJN DD line. 

Awwww Jezzz come on Snarg lol.

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3 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Awwww Jezzz come on Snarg lol.

It took me nearly two years to complete the USN line. I still have yet to get all the legendary modules. I'm only a few days away from getting a Minotaur though. This will be my only non-USN tier X.

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