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Zaydin

To destroyers who complain about being 'permaspotted by CVs', I have some simple advice

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26 minutes ago, Cakeman826 said:

I still advise that you leave it off unless you know you are the intended target. All you do is draw my eye to you when you start shooting my planes and at that point your detection is so far out lining up a shot is really easy. Once you know you are the target let it rip.

When you're a DD and there's dive bombers out after I'd just been flying around with rockets and had proximity spotted you...you're the intended target :P

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1 hour ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Question, what if you have a US DD like the Sims with decent AA (At least for a Destroyer) with 400% DFAA and Zone Boost?  Still keep it off?

Seriously asking.

Thanks.

Yes.

You want the planes to spot you.

By time he tries to get to safety. They are all shot down.

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While I do agree that turning AA off and on at the right moments is essential to current DD play and that it should be encouraged.

 

There isn't much that some DDs can do when their AA range is sub 1km while their air detect is closer to 2-3km. Specifically the Shinonome and Shiratsuyu, both of which see T6 and T8 carriers regularly.

What must one do to avoid constant harassment in these DDs who have no way of defending themselves against these constant attacks, some would say to simply smoke up, that's alright, but when a savvy CV captain lays a fighter over your smoke, with your 0.9km AA range with an amazing 17AA DPS what choice does one have. Wait out the fighter and risk getting radared or torped as you sit there unable to fight back what is essentially the weakest planes around?

This is even worse in the case of the an adventurous Shiratsuyu captain deciding to play with Torp Reload Booster, as you now have no smoke to wait out the attack, and have around the same level of AA as the Shinonome, forcing you to either play around your team, which usually means you're not going to do much spotting for them, or simply using smoke because there is no point to running torp reload booster if there are CVs in queue.

Every ship should at least have the option of being able to defend itself from air attack, but in these cases once a CV notices you're not able to fight back they're just going to keep spamming you with their nearly infinite supply of planes (compared to your limited smokes) until you die a few minutes into the match.

 

Sorry about the rant, and while I am no expert at DDs , I just had to point out some of the recent experience I've had concerning this.

Edit: Having now watched the clip provided by @Ayanami_Kai_Ni it only solidifies the fact that the all or nothing design of AA has no place in mid to high tier, seeing as how that Shiratsuyu had pretty much next to no way to counter a single attack group, nevermind two.

Edited by Saidalphon
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6 minutes ago, Saidalphon said:

While I do agree that turning AA off and on at the right moments is essential to current DD play and that it should be encouraged.

 

There isn't much that some DDs can do when their AA range is sub 1km while their air detect is closer to 2-3km. Specifically the Shinonome and Shiratsuyu, both of which see T6 and T8 carriers regularly.

What must one do to avoid constant harassment in these DDs who have no way of defending themselves against these constant attacks, some would say to simply smoke up, that's alright, but when a savvy CV captain lays a fighter over your smoke, with your 0.9km AA range with an amazing 17AA DPS what choice does one have. Wait out the fighter and risk getting radared or torped as you sit there unable to fight back what is essentially the weakest planes around?

This is even worse in the case of the an adventurous Shiratsuyu captain deciding to play with Torp Reload Booster, as you now have no smoke to wait out the attack, and have around the same level of AA as the Shinonome, forcing you to either play around your team, which usually means you're not going to do much spotting for them, or simply using smoke because there is no point to running torp reload booster if there are CVs in queue.

Every ship should at least have the option of being able to defend itself from air attack, but in these cases once a CV notices you're not able to fight back they're just going to keep spamming you with their nearly infinite supply of planes (compared to your limited smokes) until you die a few minutes into the match.

 

Sorry about the rant, and while I am no expert at DDs , I just had to point out some of the recent experience I've had concerning this.

I wouldnt disagree on this point. No one should be completely defenseless against a CV. There are extremes though and on the opposing side of that you have Mino, Worcester and a couple others that are literal no fly zones still. You can rather easily lose an entire squad before you even get close enough to drop one of those guys.

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35 minutes ago, Ayanami_Kai_Ni said:

For me, turning AA off only makes me use up at most 30 more seconds of my time to find you.

I'll still find you if I want to. And I'll smash you in with DBs

This is my experience at high tiers. Sure, I keep AA off until I'm found. Before I opened the thread, I thought the simple advice would be a bit more edifying than "turn off AA". Oh well.

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4 minutes ago, Cakeman826 said:

I wouldnt disagree on this point. No one should be completely defenseless against a CV. There are extremes though and on the opposing side of that you have Mino, Worcester and a couple others that are literal no fly zones still. You can rather easily lose an entire squad before you even get close enough to drop one of those guys.

While I do partially agree that no-fly zones should not be a thing it should also be considered that these are T10 ships specifically designed to have strong AA. They should however be required to have at least some investment to bring them up to no-fly zone standards, and while defensive AA can essentially turn almost any ship capable of using it into a no-fly zone, that's the intended result. (Although having a limited number of DFAA charges compared to the plentiful supply of planes a CV has now is something that still needs to be looked at.)

 

My main point is the fact that every ship in the mid to high tier meta should at least get a chance at fighting back, as these experiences could turn off captains from certain ships or even entire lines.

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40 minutes ago, PrivateJoker13 said:

When you're a DD and there's dive bombers out after I'd just been flying around with rockets and had proximity spotted you...you're the intended target :P

I would assume that considering you cant reasonably hit anything except an over-extended DD that early in the game anyways :P

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2 minutes ago, Saidalphon said:

My main point is the fact that every ship in the mid to high tier meta should at least get a chance at fighting back, as these experiences could turn off captains from certain ships or even entire lines.

Completely agree. Some changes on both sides of the aisle are still needed.

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1 hour ago, Ayanami_Kai_Ni said:

For me, turning AA off only makes me use up at most 30 more seconds of my time to find you.

Unless you aren't looking for him specifically in the first place, that is.

Even then, 30 seconds is a surprisingly long time. The DD could get into a decent AA umbrella, or add to that 30 seconds with smoke, or something more pressing might come up. Or maybe the CV player isn't you, and doesn't have as much patience.

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Here's the thing... even IF I don't attack you, I have distracted you from what you were doing. You also know you'll have to watch me now until I leave the area; further distraction.

I try to target ships (F3) so the team gets where I'm going. You'd be surprised at how comfy it is to be flying at a target and see 20 plus rounds of ammo flying along or ahead of you at that same target. Very effective. 

Today I worked over a bb with two different flights. There was a dd moving around near the bb - but he felt safe because I'd dropped on the bb twice - one more and he'd probably be sunk. Having DB's though... I thought the DD might just be two comfortable, presuming I'd attack the bb again. So I started the bb run, off to the right the dd turned causally away, I turned onto the dd and poof... gone. I then went and killed the BB.

I guess what I'm saying is you just never know if a carrier's gonna come after you or not when you are in a dd. 

BUT... if you can tell what type of planes are attacking you, there are very simple moves a DD can make to avoid most if not all of the damage the carrier could do to it. 

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5 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I thought this was already standard DD practice to turn AA off unless being directly attacked?  Maybe if you got an AA DD like Kidd trolling CVs you can go all willy-nilly with AA, but everyone else was supposed to already turn it off.  This was standard practice before the CV Rework, was it not?  :Smile_teethhappy:

Yes, thats what I dont understand about all these threads. Are DD drivers with AA off a minority?

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7 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I thought this was already standard DD practice to turn AA off unless being directly attacked?  Maybe if you got an AA DD like Kidd trolling CVs you can go all willy-nilly with AA, but everyone else was supposed to already turn it off.  This was standard practice before the CV Rework, was it not?  :Smile_teethhappy:

Been doing that as standard procedure since I first found out about the P key function way back in the day. The only 2 reasons I ever start a battle in a DD with AA on are 1- My AA range is shorter than my air detection anyway or 2- I'm in one of my trolly Flak DDs (Harugumo, Kitakaze, Akizuki, etc.). Admittedly, I don't have to worry much about enemy planes right now being a co-op player, but I'm staying in the habit, it served me well before 8.0, I have a feeling it will serve me well long after. And to think people used to think I was nuts for sticking to my full AA builds during the CV drought years, I knew the devs wouldn't allow it to last forever, plus I'd long been waiting to be more than just garbage with a CV myself (I was not great with the RTS system). It's just a shame that CVs were fun for about a week (and only at tier 10 anyways). Now it's a DOT class that is fair to poor in DOT ability (depending on which line you're working with), that's just a lousy mix. 

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It really is fun to mess with CVs too.  Once they get out of your minimum air detection distance.  Turn your AA back off.  Become undetected.  Maneuver.  They come back in?  turn it on again.  If you are too much trouble sometimes the CV will just bugger off to go pick on some other destroyer/battleship/cruiser.  

Since AA firing you drop detection very fast once the guns stop firing.  It isn't like firing main battery and be detected for 20 seconds.

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10 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Turn your damn AA off. It can make a huge difference. At higher tiers especially, your AA range will be twice what your aerial detection range is. Having your AA on if you aren't under direct attack or trying to support a friendly under air attack just gives your position away to the enemy carrier and, in turn, the carriers team.

Is it guaranteed to protect you? No, of course not. But making it harder for the enemy CV to know where you are will improve your life expectancy.

Good advice indeed. Before the rework, the moment I saw CVs in Co-Op when entering a match as a Destroyer, I automatically turn my AA off. It helps, to an extent but it helps. 

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5 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Yes, thats what I dont understand about all these threads. Are DD drivers with AA off a minority?

Surprisingly yes.

For awhile I honestly thought that DDs were intentionally letting CVs spot/hit them. So that the stats would show CVs being to effective against DDs.

The problem will come later when DDs actually learn how to play against CVs and CVs will be powerless against them.

It's like balancing torpedoes when everyone just sails in straight lines. It is not a good metric.

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11 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Oh hi troll.

Clearly didn't bother reading the whole post since I outright admitted it's not a guarantee.

Oh hello there!

It's two sentences, chances are you already read just by glancing at it.

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Unless you are a Hatsuharu and the CVs are T6. It's AA is surprisingly good but since they aren't too common most CV captains keep trying to bomb you even after you wiped out a few squadrons. My best so far is 29 plane kills, and all I had was the AA upgrade, no captain skills. It's pretty fun to play. 

Edited by Der_Eigenvektor
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14 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Turn your damn AA off. It can make a huge difference. At higher tiers especially, your AA range will be twice what your aerial detection range is. Having your AA on if you aren't under direct attack or trying to support a friendly under air attack just gives your position away to the enemy carrier and, in turn, the carriers team.

Is it guaranteed to protect you? No, of course not. But making it harder for the enemy CV to know where you are will improve your life expectancy.

solid advice however something troubling seems many cvs, at least the good ones are locking the entry into caps with fighters making a dds job so un fun. The only counter to this is for the friendly cv to drop fighters over the area first and even then this tells the enemy team where to throw the torps.

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But if you turn it off, how can you make CVs curse in chat? 

Sns2LHl.png

:cap_rambo:

Edited by DeadMeat_015

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Had AA turned off for the whole Battle just now but the CV had not problem finding us DDs time and time again with RPF.

So i started to sit behind my CAs and BBs problem solved.

Don't torp while greens are infront well tough, torps away.

Adapted.

Edited by Final8ty

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17 hours ago, Zaydin said:

Turn your damn AA off. It can make a huge difference. At higher tiers especially, your AA range will be twice what your aerial detection range is. Having your AA on if you aren't under direct attack or trying to support a friendly under air attack just gives your position away to the enemy carrier and, in turn, the carriers team.

Is it guaranteed to protect you? No, of course not. But making it harder for the enemy CV to know where you are will improve your life expectancy.


17 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

Yes absolutely, keep it off until you are spotted by planes, then turn it on and pop that DFAA, you'll catch them by surprise and probably take down a bunch of planes as he tries to boost out of there.


17 hours ago, Theodin said:

At this point in the game, referencing the poor/lazy players that abound these days, if I overfly a DD that has his AA off I will just keep going.

Reason?  He is obviously playing his ship, will be really difficult to hit and return minimal reward for the effort.

Better to continue to scout for the lone wolf, solo lazy non-team player that hates to join the ‘lemmings’.

:Smile_great:My  Gearing  was repeatedly gone after early game and whilst I was still close too allies only a few days ago,  So much for what Theodin says here   PS  Yes  AA  was turned off

Edited by shadowsrmine
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24 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

Had AA turned off for the whole Battle just now but the CV had not problem finding us DDs time and time again with RPF.

So i started to sit behind my CAs and BBs problem solved.

Don't torp while greens are infront well tough, torps away.

Adapted.

Yeah, I've done this a few times and I felt useless not scouting and screening for red torps. Did your team cope well with no screening? Lots of ships that have hydroacoustics don't use it now because it sits in the DFAA slot which is now more popular.

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1 minute ago, Pytheas said:

Yeah, I've done this a few times and I felt useless not scouting and screening for red torps. Did your team cope well with no screening? Lots of ships that have hydroacoustics don't use it now because it sits in the DFAA slot which is now more popular.

Well all i can say is that we won because i stayed alive

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