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___V_E_N_O_M___

Mountable National Flags?? What do y'a'll think about it?

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You can have Soviet Flags. Resposible for Millions of Deaths, But Italian or German Flags from WW2 etc you cannot. Why, Because Russians own the game. IMHO I feel ALL should be historicaly accurate and to heck with thinned skinned people.

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2 minutes ago, GSXstage1 said:

You can have Soviet Flags. Resposible for Millions of Deaths, But Italian or German Flags from WW2 etc you cannot. Why, Because Russians own the game. IMHO I feel ALL should be historicaly accurate and to heck with thinned skinned people.

The Italian WW2 flag is in the game??

As for the German and Japanese flags, well they are deemed illegal in many couuntries for obvious reasons. But you are right they should be in the game. 

The Soviet ensign is indeed a flag representative of a regime that was responsible for as many deaths if not more than what the nazis are responsible for.

Unfortunately Russia being part of the allies means such atrocities are overlooked, such as the world we live in.

 

Anyway please stay on topic, no need to derail the thread!! 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Duma said:

Possibly because it's moored?  Are they flown that way when underway?

Not in battle. Jackstaffs were removed to avoid being shot away.

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6 hours ago, Femennenly said:

Typically speaking in majority of navies, the nations flags are mounted above all other flags in a show of acknowledgement of the Nation.

For this reason, we have stayed true to tradition in keeping the Nation's flag mounted above all other mountable flags.

Fem, 

 

6 hours ago, Femennenly said:

In all these provided example, there are no other flags flying on the ship. The issue isn't its location, rather that if the flag is mounted on the bow/stern, then were will the cosmetic flags/signals be located as they are required to be beneath the national flag. 

You know this isn't true of the ships in World of Warships.  Just off the top of my head, the Fubuki, Asashio, Benson all have their national flags lower than the cosmetics flags.

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32 minutes ago, Battleship_Elisabeth said:

Not in battle. Jackstaffs were removed to avoid being shot away.

That makes sense.

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6 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Yamato underway, flag mounted aft:

 

Yamato_during_Trial_Service.jpg

 

6 hours ago, Duma said:

The question was out of idle curiosity.  I am certainly no authority on Naval Ensign Etiquette.

 

6 hours ago, Femennenly said:

In all these provided example, there are no other flags flying on the ship. The issue isn't its location, rather that if the flag is mounted on the bow/stern, then were will the cosmetic flags/signals be located as they are required to be beneath the national flag. 

The Japanese only flew the flag from the stern while at see in peace time. In times of war the flat was flown high.

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On 3/15/2019 at 1:28 PM, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

The Italian WW2 flag is in the game??

As for the German and Japanese flags, well they are deemed illegal in many couuntries for obvious reasons. But you are right they should be in the game. 

The Soviet ensign is indeed a flag representative of a regime that was responsible for as many deaths if not more than what the nazis are responsible for.

Unfortunately Russia being part of the allies means such atrocities are overlooked, such as the world we live in.

 

Anyway please stay on topic, no need to derail the thread!! 

 

 

 

The Italian WW2 flag is the Kingdom of Italy, the flag used from the formation of the country in 1861 to 1946. The nation was under fascist control but the leader spent a lot of time trying to wrestle back control, knowing that the Fascism was poison, despite being weaseled into letting the fascist minority gain movement by advisors who were nothing short of incompetent. After the surrender of Italy they helped the allies and were part of the war effort. The flag represents a trusted monarchy that actually wanted to help the people, not the perpetuation of an ideology OR the radicalization of national ideas. 

IMO the Soviet Ensign should not be there if the German and Japanese ones are there, but then again, we aren't in control of that, now are we?

Edited by Phil_Swift_With_Flextape
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6 minutes ago, Phil_Swift_With_Flextape said:

The Italian WW2 flag is the Kingdom of Italy, the flag used from the formation of the country in 1861 to 1946. The nation was under fascist control but the leader spent a lot of time trying to wrestle back control, knowing that the Fascism was poison, despite being weaseled into letting the fascist minority gain movement by advisors who were nothing short of incompetent. After the surrender of Italy they helped the allies and were part of the war effort. This is why in the treaties after WW2 Italy got the better end of the deal than Germany or Japan could even imagine. The flag represents a trusted monarchy that actually wanted to help the people, not the perpetuation of an ideology OR the radicalization of national ideas. 

IMO the Soviet Ensign should be there if the German and Japanese ones are there, but then again, we aren't in control of that, now are we?

The flag used by the italins in ww2 is the same flag in game?

The soviet ensign is there but the Japanese and German ones are not...

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8 minutes ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

The flag used by the italins in ww2 is the same flag in game?

The soviet ensign is there but the Japanese and German ones are not...

It seems to be that the Italian flag is correct.

The one the bugs me is the Germans do not have correct flags for the pre-Nazi eras and it can be done as shown with the pre-revolution flag on Russian ships.

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20 minutes ago, Phil_Swift_With_Flextape said:

This is why in the treaties after WW2 Italy got the better end of the deal than Germany or Japan could even imagine.

 

Uh.

Wut?

You are way off base with this. Germany and Japan both got a ton more reconstruction effort from the Allies--the US, primarily--post-war. Why? Japan got it because Dugout Doug was the OG weeb of them all, and utterly infatuated with everything Japanese. Germany got it because it was the presumptive front line against the Soviets.

The Italians, otoh... they got some aid, but they did a lot of fending for themselves, and they were still clearing away rubble well into the 1960's, never mind replacing what had been there previously.

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In the sailing ship days and places like yacht clubs and maybe naval/ CG bases, use a flag pole that works more like the rear mast (missen mast on a ship, main mast on a brig) of an old sailing ship (18th and 19th century). There is a pole (mast) and another pole mounted to the mast at about a 45 degree angle, that represents, or is, the gaff. (it supported the rear sail called the spanker) The national flag was flown from the end of the gaff. This put it below the mast tops. There were other flags flown at the mast head and off to the sides. Although another national flag may have been flown at different places too. Such as at the foremast top when a ship in front of them could not see the flag at the stern. In battle ships may have flown the flags in multiple locations to make sure of no misidentification.

But times and custons change.

Since many sailing ships looked alike and it was difficult to tell a merchantman from a warship, (uniform paint schemes were not universal) naval ships would fly a commissioning penant from the mainmast (a long streamer looking flag)

Naval ships also, when meeting another ship when at war, had a code system,  of challange and responce. A different color flag(s) flown at a specific location to tell friend from foe.

The term "flag lieutenant" came from this time as he was the lieutenant on the admiral's staff whose job was to make sure the right signal flags were flown properly and at the right times.

When visiting another country ships, and yachts, will fly a small version of that country's national flag from the outermost right side spreader, or yard. This is called a courtesy flag.

 

Now what was the subject??  Oh, mounting national flags on the WG ships. It might be nice if it isn't too much of a hassle. Me I seem to have bad luck in the game when I fly the one flag I have, other than the default national flag. Would like to have the "Rising Sun" on my IJN ships but I get it.

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2 hours ago, GrayPanther2018 said:

In the sailing ship days and places like yacht clubs and maybe naval/ CG bases, use a flag pole that works more like the rear mast (missen mast on a ship, main mast on a brig) of an old sailing ship (18th and 19th century). There is a pole (mast) and another pole mounted to the mast at about a 45 degree angle, that represents, or is, the gaff. (it supported the rear sail called the spanker) The national flag was flown from the end of the gaff. This put it below the mast tops. There were other flags flown at the mast head and off to the sides. Although another national flag may have been flown at different places too. Such as at the foremast top when a ship in front of them could not see the flag at the stern. In battle ships may have flown the flags in multiple locations to make sure of no misidentification.

But times and custons change.

Since many sailing ships looked alike and it was difficult to tell a merchantman from a warship, (uniform paint schemes were not universal) naval ships would fly a commissioning penant from the mainmast (a long streamer looking flag)

Naval ships also, when meeting another ship when at war, had a code system,  of challange and responce. A different color flag(s) flown at a specific location to tell friend from foe.

The term "flag lieutenant" came from this time as he was the lieutenant on the admiral's staff whose job was to make sure the right signal flags were flown properly and at the right times.

When visiting another country ships, and yachts, will fly a small version of that country's national flag from the outermost right side spreader, or yard. This is called a courtesy flag.

 

Now what was the subject??  Oh, mounting national flags on the WG ships. It might be nice if it isn't too much of a hassle. Me I seem to have bad luck in the game when I fly the one flag I have, other than the default national flag. Would like to have the "Rising Sun" on my IJN ships but I get it.

Here you go, Rising Sun flag mod:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/48023-0811-japanese-naval-ensign-rising-sun-flag-for-ijn-ships-v2/

Edited by ___V_E_N_O_M___

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I miss when all IJN ships in game had their ensign flown from the stern jackstaff. It gave the ships some character, in my opinion.

I'd love to have the option to fly the ensign from there on them again.

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14 hours ago, Duma said:

Possibly because it's moored?  Are they flown that way when underway?

No.

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5 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

The national ensign is placed at the location of highest honor.

https://www.marineinsight.com/guidelines/nautical-flag-etiquettes/

Game dont adhere to this policy, Scharnhorst has its national flag flying below the commemorative flags. So I am afraid that goes out the window...

 

Anyway why are you qustioning this idea, are you telling me you wouldn't want to change your ships main flag position?

I ask because you keep posting stuff about etiquette but it has no relevance to wows since wows does not follow that rule.

I dont accept @Femennenly explanation either for the same reason.

Edited by ___V_E_N_O_M___

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39 minutes ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Game dont adhere to this policy, Scharnhorst has its national flag flying below the commemorative flags. So I am afraid that goes out the window...

 

Anyway why are you qustioning this idea, are you telling me you wouldn't want to change your ships main flag position?

I ask because you keep posting stuff about etiquette but it has no relevance to wows since wows does not follow that rule.

I dont accept @Femennenly explanation either for the same reason.

It does follow the protocall, the position of highest honour may not necessarilly be the highest position by height.

When a RCN ship is alongside in a foreign port the Canadian Naval Ensign is flown from the ensign staff at the stern, the national flag is flown from the jack staff at the bow, and a courtesy flag is flown from the outermost halyard on the jetty side. In this scenario the courtesy flag is in a higher position by height, the CNE is in the highest position by order of precedence.

when a RCN ship is conducting a replenshment at sea(RAS), or leaving a NATO fleet sometimes other flags such as sports team flags(Roughriders, Blue Bombers, etc.. ) are flown from the halyards, and are at a height at least equal to, if not higher than the CNE in the sea position. Using that same logic(real world navies), the cosmetic flags on the Scharnhorst may be flying higher above the water, but the ensign is in the "higher" position.

Edited by VeatherVitch
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4 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

It does follow the protocall, the position of highest honour may not necessarilly be the highest position by height.

When a RCN ship is alongside in a foreign port the Canadian Naval Ensign is flown from the ensign staff at the stern, the national flag is flown from the jack staff at the bow, and a courtesy flag is flown from the outermost halyard on the jetty side. In this scenario the courtesy flag is in a higher position by height, the CNE is in the highest position by order of precedence.

Precedence can be any where on the ship...

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Just now, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Precedence can be any where on the ship...

Except every navy has a set rule about what staff or halyard is the highest in precedence. The general rule is alongside the ensign staff at the stern is highest, and at sea the ensign flown from a specific halyard reserved for only the ensign.

I admit I haven't sailed alongside every navy, but I have sailed with the German, British, US, Spanish, Portugese, Norwegan, Italian, Danish, Indian, Japanese, Korean, and Chinese navies. They all seemed follow the same general rule that the RCN does.

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Another important thing is some tech trees need to have their historical flags implemented, namely the IJN, Kriegsmarine, Marine Nationale, Pan-Asia (ROC, PRC etc.) and the Commonwealth.

 

  Rumor has it the historically accurate IJN flag was not chosen and in is place the modern Japanese flag is used because Chinese and Korean players found the WWII IJN flag, which BTW is still being used today, to be offensive. That's [edited] really because I'm Chinese and I don't feel offended at all, in fact I want that historical accuracy. People these days can be a bit too butt hurt. 

 

  Same with the PRC and ROC flags.  I just find it a bit unbelievable how politics can find its way into a video game that's about ships, with no blood and gore.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu
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46 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Another important thing is some tech trees need to have their historical flags implemented, namely the IJN, Kriegsmarine, Marine Nationale, Pan-Asia (ROC, PRC etc.) and the Commonwealth.

The commonwealth ships do have the correct ensigs as an option in game, the Commonwealth navies used the White Ensign just like the RN.

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3 hours ago, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

Game dont adhere to this policy, Scharnhorst has its national flag flying below the commemorative flags. So I am afraid that goes out the window...

 

Anyway why are you qustioning this idea, are you telling me you wouldn't want to change your ships main flag position?

I ask because you keep posting stuff about etiquette but it has no relevance to wows since wows does not follow that rule.

I dont accept @Femennenly explanation either for the same reason.

Scharnhorst flag flies from the gaff, which is the place of highest honor, so no.

Femmenenly's is wrong though.

Yes, I am telling you I do not want to change it.  I want it in it's proper location.  Yes, I am posting stuff about flag etiquette because there's a reason why navy ships put their flags where they do.

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Thanks VENOM you may have just made me a modder.

Edited by GrayPanther2018
Correction

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On 3/15/2019 at 8:25 AM, ___V_E_N_O_M___ said:

@Sub_Octavian @iKami @Femennenly

Do you think it would be possible to change the hardpoint where you can mount the national flag on a ship, to add a bit more customization? I think it would be great if we could change where this flag can be mounted, all ships have flag poles on fore, middle and aft positions. Why aren't we using them?

 

LOL "flagpoles"

The one at the bow is called the Jack Staff and the one at the stern is the Flag Staff. They are used when moored.

The "flagpoles" amidships are called masts. Flags, pennants and signals are flown from halyards attached thereto.

Underway, national ensigns are usually flown by most navies at the gaff on the after-most mast. In cases of single-masted vessels, the ensign is flown at the truck of the mast, above all other pennants.

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1 hour ago, CruiserSailor said:

LOL "flagpoles"

The one at the bow is called the Jack Staff and the one at the stern is the Flag Staff. They are used when moored.

The "flagpoles" amidships are called masts. Flags, pennants and signals are flown from halyards attached thereto.

Underway, national ensigns are usually flown by most navies at the gaff on the after-most mast. In cases of single-masted vessels, the ensign is flown at the truck of the mast, above all other pennants.

 

It's not always above everything else. It's only required to be above anything else on that same halyard. You may very well have ROMEO or something closed up on the yardarm for an unrep and have that be higher than the national ensign.

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