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Premiums are not the problem. Your garbage match maker is.

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The few premiums out there are not a problem if you actually matched people based on statistics in the boats they are in and a +1/-1 MM for T8+.  If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.  If one team has 4 radars and the other team has 4 radars, they cancel each other out.  You need to base your MM on stats rather than "LOL, RANDOM".  A simple sorting algorithm that sorted people who enter the game and tried to even it up by stats, consumables would go way farther than trying to level nerf ships you sell. 

We all know your sales will tank if you sell below average ships, so you can't be blamed for selling over performing ones.  It is how you make your money.  We also know you have an attrition problem due to people getting absolutely slaughtered.  These land slide games are because of a few reasons, like no actual tutorial to show people how to play, power crept T-10 ships vs T-8 Ships, but the biggest one is your garbage MM.  Even your Streamers complain about the MM imbalance, yet you have effectively done nothing to fix it.  How fun is it to be stuck on a side where everyone is 40% WR and the otherside is sitting with 5 unicums.  It sucks, it makes the game un-fun for both side.  The game is over in less than 7 minutes.  The dominant side you are sailing full force popping what shots you can before the game ends, the other side just gets steam rolled.  Games like that are not the one off anymore, it is becoming the norm.  As the population shrinks it will continue to get worse and worse and the divide will be massive.  There is no Premium that is going to fix a 40% WR team vs a 60% WR team.

Then you couple that with the fact as soon as you hit T-8 it becomes a glaring problem because of the "LOL-PowerCreep" that is some T-9 and mostly T-10 ships.  If T-8 ships only faced T-9 ships and T-10 ships only faced T-10 / T-9 ships it would be a lot easier to ease into the power creep that you have created . By the time you hit T-9 you know how to counter T-9 and can get used to T-10.  T-8's will also get some T-6 games to break up the up tiers, but they will never face the power creep T-10 ships.  I know you think that you need to feed T-10 ships fodder so they keep spending money (T-10 is the one tier where you can not reliably play for free), but you lose the customers at rank 8.  This is the same reason T-7 ships sell so much better than T-8's, no one wants to get stuck in your T-8 power crept MM hell.  

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

Edited by JonnyFreedom
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7 minutes ago, JonnyFreedom said:

The few premiums out there are not a problem if you actually matched people based on statistics in the boats they are in and a +1/-1 MM for T8+.  If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.  If one team has 4 radars and the other team has 4 radars, they cancel each other out.  You need to base your MM on stats rather than "LOL, RANDOM".  A simple sorting algorithm that sorted people who enter the game and tried to even it up by stats, consumables would go way farther than trying to level nerf ships you sell. 

We all know your sales will tank if you sell below average ships, so you can't be blamed for selling over performing ones.  It is how you make your money.  We also know you have an attrition problem due to people getting absolutely slaughtered.  These land slide games are because of a few reasons, like no actual tutorial to show people how to play, but the biggest one is your garbage MM.  Even your Streamers complain about the MM imbalance, yet you have effectively done nothing to fix it.  How fun is it to be stuck on a side where everyone is 40% WR and the otherside is sitting with 5 unicums.  It sucks, it makes the game un-fun for both side.  The game is over in less than 7 minutes.  The dominant side you are sailing full force popping what shots you can before the game ends, the other side just gets steam rolled.  Games like that are not the one off anymore, it is becoming the norm.  As the population shrinks it will continue to get worse and worse and the divide will be massive.

Then you couple that with the fact as soon as you hit T-8 it becomes a glaring problem because of the "LOL-PowerCreep" that is some T-9 and mostly T-10 ships.  If T-8 ships only faced T-9 ships and T-10 ships only faced T-10 / T-9 ships it would be a lot easier to ease into the power creep that you have created . By the time you hit T-9 you know how to counter T-9 and can get used to T-10.  T-8's will also get some T-6 games to break up the up tiers, but they will never face the power creep T-10 ships.  I know you think that you need to feed T-10 ships fodder so they keep spending money (T-10 is the one tier where you can not reliably play for free), but you lose the customers at the rank.  The same reason T-7 ships sell so well and T-8's don't sell as well as their counter part. 

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

:Smile_great:I Agree:Smile_medal:

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1 hour ago, JonnyFreedom said:

The few premiums out there are not a problem if you actually matched people based on statistics in the boats they are in and a +1/-1 MM for T8+.  If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.  If one team has 4 radars and the other team has 4 radars, they cancel each other out.  You need to base your MM on stats rather than "LOL, RANDOM".  A simple sorting algorithm that sorted people who enter the game and tried to even it up by stats, consumables would go way farther than trying to level nerf ships you sell. 

We all know your sales will tank if you sell below average ships, so you can't be blamed for selling over performing ones.  It is how you make your money.  We also know you have an attrition problem due to people getting absolutely slaughtered.  These land slide games are because of a few reasons, like no actual tutorial to show people how to play, but the biggest one is your garbage MM.  Even your Streamers complain about the MM imbalance, yet you have effectively done nothing to fix it.  How fun is it to be stuck on a side where everyone is 40% WR and the otherside is sitting with 5 unicums.  It sucks, it makes the game un-fun for both side.  The game is over in less than 7 minutes.  The dominant side you are sailing full force popping what shots you can before the game ends, the other side just gets steam rolled.  Games like that are not the one off anymore, it is becoming the norm.  As the population shrinks it will continue to get worse and worse and the divide will be massive.

Then you couple that with the fact as soon as you hit T-8 it becomes a glaring problem because of the "LOL-PowerCreep" that is some T-9 and mostly T-10 ships.  If T-8 ships only faced T-9 ships and T-10 ships only faced T-10 / T-9 ships it would be a lot easier to ease into the power creep that you have created . By the time you hit T-9 you know how to counter T-9 and can get used to T-10.  T-8's will also get some T-6 games to break up the up tiers, but they will never face the power creep T-10 ships.  I know you think that you need to feed T-10 ships fodder so they keep spending money (T-10 is the one tier where you can not reliably play for free), but you lose the customers at the rank.  The same reason T-7 ships sell so well and T-8's don't sell as well as their counter part. 

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

I LIKE your Style!

I would also like to add my two cents to prolong games to make it a struggle on both sides for a satisfying end game as much as possible.

Remove Detonations.  This just removes a player and robs the team of fair play. Delete all Detonation signals. 

Lessen the damage Devastating Strike causes if your more than 12 km away.  More damage allowed if closer.

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1 hour ago, JonnyFreedom said:

The few premiums out there are not a problem if you actually matched people based on statistics in the boats they are in and a +1/-1 MM for T8+.  If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.  If one team has 4 radars and the other team has 4 radars, they cancel each other out.  You need to base your MM on stats rather than "LOL, RANDOM".  A simple sorting algorithm that sorted people who enter the game and tried to even it up by stats, consumables would go way farther than trying to level nerf ships you sell. 

We all know your sales will tank if you sell below average ships, so you can't be blamed for selling over performing ones.  It is how you make your money.  We also know you have an attrition problem due to people getting absolutely slaughtered.  These land slide games are because of a few reasons, like no actual tutorial to show people how to play, but the biggest one is your garbage MM.  Even your Streamers complain about the MM imbalance, yet you have effectively done nothing to fix it.  How fun is it to be stuck on a side where everyone is 40% WR and the otherside is sitting with 5 unicums.  It sucks, it makes the game un-fun for both side.  The game is over in less than 7 minutes.  The dominant side you are sailing full force popping what shots you can before the game ends, the other side just gets steam rolled.  Games like that are not the one off anymore, it is becoming the norm.  As the population shrinks it will continue to get worse and worse and the divide will be massive.

Then you couple that with the fact as soon as you hit T-8 it becomes a glaring problem because of the "LOL-PowerCreep" that is some T-9 and mostly T-10 ships.  If T-8 ships only faced T-9 ships and T-10 ships only faced T-10 / T-9 ships it would be a lot easier to ease into the power creep that you have created . By the time you hit T-9 you know how to counter T-9 and can get used to T-10.  T-8's will also get some T-6 games to break up the up tiers, but they will never face the power creep T-10 ships.  I know you think that you need to feed T-10 ships fodder so they keep spending money (T-10 is the one tier where you can not reliably play for free), but you lose the customers at the rank.  The same reason T-7 ships sell so well and T-8's don't sell as well as their counter part. 

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

None of that will do what you think it will do.

+/-1 MM for Tier VIII+ would make Tier VIII a wonder Tier, but it would utterly ruin Tier VI and VII.

Skill based MM wouldn't affect blowouts at all because blowouts are not caused by one side having a Belfast or more radar ships or players with a higher average win rate.  Blowouts are caused by the snowball effect and teams of unicums still experience blowout losses.

Most matches I have had are not blowouts, unless you really don't understand the mechanics of the snowball effect and what a real blowout is.  If a match ends with one team sunk and 9 or 10 of the other team still up, that is a blowout.  6 or 7 still up and that was a fairly competitive match.  Battles where there are only 1 to 3 total ships left at the end, those defy the snowball effect to be as close as they are.  One of my three matches last night ended with our Yamato winning the match for us with 2 enemy ships unable to come from behind.  Heck, a few weeks ago I was in a match in which I was the 8th or 9th ship, Izumo if I recall, on my side to be sunk while the enemy still had 10 ships afloat.  I left the match, giving it up as a loss and thought I'd just do another Izumo match once the ship was available and for now I'd do another ship.  After winning that ship's game I found that those last 2 ships had won the match, the BB holding the line long enough for the cruiser or DD (I don't recall which) to cap the enemy base.  That match ended with 2 ships on my team afloat against 10 on the enemy, yet my team won because of persistence on the part of those two players and mistakes made by the overconfident 10 players who thought they were getting a blowout victory.

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4 minutes ago, dionkraft said:

I LIKE your Style!

I would also like to add my two cents to prolong games to make it a struggle on both sides for a satisfying end game as much as possible.

Remove Detonations.  This just removes a player and robs the team of fair play. Delete all Detonation signals. 

Lessen the damage Devastating Strike causes if your more than 12 km away.  More damage allowed if closer.

Those things you would remove as causes of blowouts are also avenues to stop blowouts and to turn an incipient blowout back on the team with the initiative.

I do not agree with their removal.

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16 minutes ago, dionkraft said:

I LIKE your Style!

I would also like to add my two cents to prolong games to make it a struggle on both sides for a satisfying end game as much as possible.

Remove Detonations.  This just removes a player and robs the team of fair play. Delete all Detonation signals. 

Lessen the damage Devastating Strike causes if your more than 12 km away.  More damage allowed if closer.

How about no.

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2 hours ago, JonnyFreedom said:

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

It's because of T8 MM that most (actually all) of my expensive premiums are port queens.  T8 match making stinks like hemorrhoids wrapped in bacon. Yes I know some of you love the challenge, and the gains, and you are so badass you can top the team in your Admiral Hipper every time.  But like Freedom, I would prefer to wait in queue a few more minutes to get  a favorable match, as opposed to  hitting battle and getting an instant t10 match.  Make it happen WG, seriously.

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How many times has people beaten the "Skilled MM" horse to death now.

And +1/-1 MM will eventually lead to very stale matches since you get to face the same ships all the time.

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there is another problem with MM. Look at the screenshot of the battle results. Red team got 7/12 players whose clan got to typhoon league (i.e. pretty good skill level) vs. a bag of potatoes including myself. we just didn't stand a chance. I generally oppose MM based on skill but that is just way too much.

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9 minutes ago, Citrusss said:

there is another problem with MM. Look at the screenshot of the battle results. Red team got 7/12 players whose clan got to typhoon league (i.e. pretty good skill level) vs. a bag of potatoes including myself. we just didn't stand a chance. I generally oppose MM based on skill but that is just way too much.

hmm.png

ufff :-( yea.

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27 minutes ago, LadyJess said:

Why not give the option of +1/-1 MM or +2/-2 MM to the players at tier 5+

They don't want to give you that for one simple reason. You are not forced anymore to go to tier X.

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3 hours ago, JonnyFreedom said:

The few premiums out there are not a problem if you actually matched people based on statistics in the boats they are in and a +1/-1 MM for T8+.  If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.  If one team has 4 radars and the other team has 4 radars, they cancel each other out.  You need to base your MM on stats rather than "LOL, RANDOM".  A simple sorting algorithm that sorted people who enter the game and tried to even it up by stats, consumables would go way farther than trying to level nerf ships you sell. 

We all know your sales will tank if you sell below average ships, so you can't be blamed for selling over performing ones.  It is how you make your money.  We also know you have an attrition problem due to people getting absolutely slaughtered.  These land slide games are because of a few reasons, like no actual tutorial to show people how to play, but the biggest one is your garbage MM.  Even your Streamers complain about the MM imbalance, yet you have effectively done nothing to fix it.  How fun is it to be stuck on a side where everyone is 40% WR and the otherside is sitting with 5 unicums.  It sucks, it makes the game un-fun for both side.  The game is over in less than 7 minutes.  The dominant side you are sailing full force popping what shots you can before the game ends, the other side just gets steam rolled.  Games like that are not the one off anymore, it is becoming the norm.  As the population shrinks it will continue to get worse and worse and the divide will be massive.

Then you couple that with the fact as soon as you hit T-8 it becomes a glaring problem because of the "LOL-PowerCreep" that is some T-9 and mostly T-10 ships.  If T-8 ships only faced T-9 ships and T-10 ships only faced T-10 / T-9 ships it would be a lot easier to ease into the power creep that you have created . By the time you hit T-9 you know how to counter T-9 and can get used to T-10.  T-8's will also get some T-6 games to break up the up tiers, but they will never face the power creep T-10 ships.  I know you think that you need to feed T-10 ships fodder so they keep spending money (T-10 is the one tier where you can not reliably play for free), but you lose the customers at the rank.  The same reason T-7 ships sell so well and T-8's don't sell as well as their counter part. 

So instead of trying to fix things you are selling, try fixing your code instead.  MM is your problem, more than CVs ever were.  Getting up tiered absolutely blows.  I would rather wait to get a fair game, than get blown out in a horrible loss.  Nothing feels good about steam rolling or getting steam rolled.  You know your MM sucks, please just spend some time and fix it.  Develop a basic MMR system like the rest of the pvp games developed after 2010.  Feel free to join the community of good pvp game design.

By this point its pretty safe to say that no premium is completely broken. I have spent the better part of my WOWS journey punishing people in premiums. Each "OP" premium tends to have the same strength and weakness of its class and as long as you focus on how to counter the class you should be ok. As for Belfast, I so love when they smoke up. It lets me know where to send a wall of torps, nothing is without a counter in this game.

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1 hour ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

How many times has people beaten the "Skilled MM" horse to death now.

And +1/-1 MM will eventually lead to very stale matches since you get to face the same ships all the time.

+1/-1 MM only would apply to T-10

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3 hours ago, dad003 said:

Meh git Gud 

I propose GetGudwin's Law: the longer a thread goes on, the closer the probability of someone saying "git gud" is to 1.

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Just now, JonnyFreedom said:

+1/-1 MM only would apply to T-10

Which would utterly destroy Tier VI and VII.

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46 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Which would utterly destroy Tier VI and VII.

T-10's would suck up all the T-9's.  The max a T-7 would ever face would realistically be a T-8.  T-6 is no different than it is now.

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9 hours ago, Taichunger said:

I propose GetGudwin's Law: the longer a thread goes on, the closer the probability of someone saying "git gud" is to 1.

It is almost like they are trying to say something useful, and then realize they have not participated in the English Language for more than a few weeks.

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10 hours ago, _no_one_ said:

They don't want to give you that for one simple reason. You are not forced anymore to go to tier X.

Forced to go to T10????   Who is forcing you to go to T10 other than yourself?  Other than brand new players you don't have to play any tier of ship that you don't want to play.  Want to run only T2?  OK.  Want to stay at T6?  No problemo.   We all have reasons for the ships we play, but no one is forcing anyone to play a tier they don't want to play.  Sure you will see ships of tiers higher than yours, but you don't have to play any ship you don't want to.

Unless you are one of those people that somehow conflate T10 with "endgame", and think that they have "won the game" by getting to T10 as fast as possible.  In which case you are actually the loser.

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As disconcerting as it is to be agreeing with Jonny "I Forgot the H" Freedom, this time I'm forced to. I don't agree with moving to +/-1 match making, but I do think that any attempt to balance the ships between teams would be a good idea. I hear people talk about how this is going to increase wait times, which indicates that they don't understand what is being proposed here. Pick the exact same set of players in ships with the exact same spread, but change how you allocate them to teams. No extra waiting at all is necessary.

While no ranking scheme is going to be perfect, I think it's safe to say that if I was picking my own team and had the choice of a 27% WR scrub or a 72% denizen of Olympus, I'd pick the second one every time. That player might happen to be drunk tonight, or might be trying some wild and crazy tactic for the first time, but on average they are going to be better than somebody who has demonstrated an inability to win.

The only other stat that might make sense to balance is the total number of random games played - if you have one team that averages 300 games per player and another that averages 3,000 per player and both had the same WR, I'd bet on the more experienced team unless I had compelling reasons not to. All of the other stats like damage done, ships sunk, etc. are indicators of who is likely to win, but WR is a direct measure of how successful that player has been at winning. Assuming that we want both teams to have a roughly even chance of winning, that's all you really need to see. The experience number is useful because it separates new players with potentially less accurate WR numbers from long-term people who have numbers that have had time to average out the outliers.

This won't end blow-out matches (however you define them), but it would likely improve the average closeness of games when both sides start with roughly the same chance of winning. I know that when I enter a match with 3 guys from -K- or OPG on one side (not in a division), I already know who is going to win unless a similarly OP group is on the other side. I don't give up, but I do have lower expectations of success.

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13 hours ago, dionkraft said:

Lessen the damage Devastating Strike causes if your more than 12 km away.  More damage allowed if closer.

You do realize that "Devastating Strike" doesn't actual cause damage, right? It just pops up if you kill a ships for more than 50% of it health with one salvo/fire/flood. That's like 2 Yamato shells citadeling a Minotaur. The shells do a set amount of damage if they explode inside a citadel. You can't really change that based on distance. Same thing with a destroyers torpedos. I'd love to see the DD main reactions if you told them that their torpedos only did full damage if they were launched right on top of the enemy ships. 

 

14 hours ago, JonnyFreedom said:

If there is a 100k belfast and a 100k New Orleans, they cancel each other out.

I agree with some of what you're saying, but I think I need to make a point here. I would argue that a New Orleans with 100k damage theoretically cancels out a Myoko (Or Yorck/Algerie/Schors/Helena) with 100k damage on the other team. This assumes however, that the two ships are equally difficult to play, and have similar capabilities. With NO/Myoko/Yorck/Schors/Helena, I'm willing to treat them as such. Fiji has smoke and no HE which I think would put her on par with the other ships, although she gets different capabilities. 

 

Belfast and Atlanta on the other hand are different. They get radar, which allows them to influence the battle in ways that a NO (Or other equivalent Tech-tree ship) can't. 100k damage by a NO is not equivalent to 100k damage by a Belfast if you consider that Belfast may have helped her team more with her smoke and radar. Calling them equivalent also assumes that they're equally difficult to play. I don't have a Belfast, so I can't speak to the differences between it and the other cruisers, but I'm not willing to say that they're identical gameplay-difficulty wise without some proof. 

 

Base point - Even in a single tier battle, even if you choose average players with the same win rate, there are going to be ships that over-perform. There's a reason that Kitikaze and Musashi were so common in ranked. They're insanely good. If you pit 2 Musashi, 2 Kron/Alaska, and 2 Kitikazes against 2 Freddy/Izumo, 2 Donskoi/Seattle and 2 Tashkent/Udaloi, and make all 12 players equally good, I'm going to bet on the first team every time. Player statistics alone won't decide the battle.

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11 minutes ago, TheOmegaDuck said:

I'd love to see the DD main reactions if you told them that their torpedos only did full damage if they were launched right on top of the enemy ships. 

Legend has it you can still hear the REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE to this day.

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1 hour ago, ElAurens said:

Unless you are one of those people that somehow conflate T10 with "endgame", and think that they have "won the game" by getting to T10 as fast as possible.  In which case you are actually the loser.

I would clarify that by saying "...getting to T10 as fast as possible in all ship lines" (except CV, if you're the sort who thinks it will pollute your soul to go there).

Matchmaker is one of those things that reveals a brutal truth about actual war - a captain doesn't always get to choose the best colleagues to sail with. AFAIK the last time an admiral took a unicum team into a set-piece, winner-take-all naval battle in real life was either Trafalgar (Nelson's words to the First Lord of the Admiralty when told he could choose the composition of his fleet were "Choose [them] yourself; the same spirit motivates the whole profession"), or Tsushima (I don't know for sure if Togo had any potatoes with him).

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14 hours ago, dionkraft said:

Lessen the damage Devastating Strike causes if your more than 12 km away.  More damage allowed if closer.

DS doesn't cause damage. It's simply a threshold for an achievement.

You could remove DS altogether, and it literally would change nothing except remove a specific signal reward.

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