Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
awiggin

The paradox WG faces with premiums.....

72 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,226
[WOLF7]
Members
12,309 posts

Well, now that WG seems to have reversed course on the GC nerf, it's time for a reality pill....:Smile_teethhappy:

WG is stuck, they have realized that they can't sell enough premiums if they aren't at least somewhat OP compared to the tech tree. There simply aren't enough ship aficionados to sell historically significant ships. (Other than Missouri)

Perhaps if this game had  generated the kind of numbers WOT has, (WOT RU currently has 20 times the player base WOWS has) it might be different, but it didn't and with the amount of turnover this game suffers with, it seems unlikely to get better.

So, what does WG do? Nerf entire classes aka the Murmansk AFT/BFT nerf? Buff tech lines after the fact? (If they buff tech lines, is it a stealth nerf?)

Or do they find another way to monetize the game? 

Really curious as to what players think WG should do, without shooting themselves in the wallet?

  • Cool 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[LRM]
[LRM]
Members
2,878 posts
7,061 battles
32 minutes ago, awiggin said:

(Other than Missouri)

I would say Arizona is the other exception, especially on NA. The famous casualty of Pearl Harbor, the flagship of the Pacific, struck down in an attack as swift as the wind picks up.

 

As for balancing, buffing the overall power level of the game to nerf these ships would have to be the logical course of action if they have a plan B.

Also, do keep in mind, the only reason nerfing premium ships are an issue is because Wargaming doesn't want to offer financial refunds. If they offered monetary compensation to those who baught her, then the whole situation would be zero sum. It's basically the linchpin of any premium ship change. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,488
[-K-]
[-K-]
Members
5,006 posts
16,890 battles

The real paradox is that by cutting off any avenue to adjust the balance of premium ships after release, the player base has basically guaranteed itself a future of mediocre premiums. Without the potential to adjust a premium ship downward, they essentially have to release them all "rounded down" in power, to leave themselves some headroom. They can (and do) buff them later, but people almost never notice such adjustments months after the initial sale.

Well, or they can just keep risking the release of an OP ship that will flood the roster every time they try to do a Ranked season at a different tier... looking at you, GC (5), Belfast (7), Kutuzov (8), and Musashi (9).

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
6,209 posts
13,362 battles
1 minute ago, Edgecase said:

The real paradox is that by cutting off any avenue to adjust the balance of premium ships after release, the player base has basically guaranteed itself a future of mediocre premiums. Without the potential to adjust a premium ship downward, they essentially have to release them all "rounded down" in power, to leave themselves some headroom. They can (and do) buff them later, but people almost never notice such adjustments months after the initial sale.

Well, or they can just keep risking the release of an OP ship that will flood the roster every time they try to do a Ranked season at a different tier... looking at you, GC (5), Belfast (7), Kutuzov (8), and Musashi (9).

Well the Musashi did not have near the impact that other ships had, especially tech tree kita and Jutland. 

But you forgot LY, which breaks ranked at tier 8 but is merely above average in randoms

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,382
Members
3,089 posts
12,077 battles
12 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Well the Musashi did not have near the impact that other ships had, especially tech tree kita and Jutland. 

But you forgot LY, which breaks ranked at tier 8 but is merely above average in randoms

Both Lo Yang and Black.  They stand out in competitive environment, and in division play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,498
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,219 posts
21,232 battles
8 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

The real paradox is that by cutting off any avenue to adjust the balance of premium ships after release, the player base has basically guaranteed itself a future of mediocre premiums. Without the potential to adjust a premium ship downward, they essentially have to release them all "rounded down" in power, to leave themselves some headroom. They can (and do) buff them later, but people almost never notice such adjustments months after the initial sale.

Well, or they can just keep risking the release of an OP ship that will flood the roster every time they try to do a Ranked season at a different tier... looking at you, GC (5), Belfast (7), Kutuzov (8), and Musashi (9).

Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, WG can relax on balancing ships before release. Just let them be OP and they will sell better. Players are ok with that, after all. Why spend the time and energy on balanced ships that dont sell as well, I mean the community doesnt care anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,460
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
4,159 posts
6,031 battles
2 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, WG can relax on balancing ships before release. Just let them be OP and they will sell better. Players are ok with that, after all. Why spend the time and energy on balanced ships that dont sell as well, I mean the community doesnt care anyway.

The loudest ones don't, obviously; but many of us actually do.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,498
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,219 posts
21,232 battles
9 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

The loudest ones don't, obviously; but many of us actually do.

Oh I know, but what a way to make money for them. I'd love to see the silent majority actual make a difference, like a certain election, and just crush the ones screaming about getting their money back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[LRM]
[LRM]
Members
2,878 posts
7,061 battles
12 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, WG can relax on balancing ships before release. Just let them be OP and they will sell better. Players are ok with that, after all. Why spend the time and energy on balanced ships that dont sell as well, I mean the community doesnt care anyway.

Says the guy who wants Belfast and Kutuzov buffed and resold. The community cares about balance. At this point, if a OP ship gets knocked down aggregately by a change in the rules of the game, then that's just how things are. If an OP ship doesn't get knocked down, bully for it.

Just now, Skuggsja said:

Oh I know, but what a way to make money for them. I'd love to see the silent majority actual make a difference, like a certain election, and just crush the ones screaming about getting their money back.

Ok, at this rate your being a obstructionist. If you can throw down stop sticks you want it to happen with impunity. You might want to rethink taking that position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,933 posts
8,575 battles

No paradox, just LISTEN to CCs and testers when they say "this ship is too good". This whole mess could have been avoided over a year ago. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
616
[WOLF5]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
2,767 posts
38,997 battles

A ship can be fun and unique without being OP.  Atlanta, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,498
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,219 posts
21,232 battles
8 minutes ago, Phil_Swift_With_Flextape said:

Says the guy who wants Belfast and Kutuzov buffed and resold. The community cares about balance. At this point, if a OP ship gets knocked down aggregately by a change in the rules of the game, then that's just how things are. If an OP ship doesn't get knocked down, bully for it.

Ok, at this rate your being a obstructionist. If you can throw down stop sticks you want it to happen with impunity. You might want to rethink taking that position.

That post is sarcastic and trollish. It is meant to point out the inherent flaw in the arguments and decisions here lately, especially the level of hypocrisy. 

An obstructionist of what? What am I obstructing? You honestly think our input matters if it isn't just a flood of posts on a forum being tallied yay or nay?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,057
[CNO]
Members
5,291 posts
16,601 battles
1 hour ago, awiggin said:

Or do they find another way to monetize the game? 

IMHO, the best way for WG to monetize the game is to have payment options available to allow paying customers to pay for products.  I used to run Prime most of the time.  And there have been several premium ships that interested me over the past several months.  I would have bought the top end Exeter package.  But ever since Amazon Pay disappeared, I have no way to part with my money to acquire products I wish to acquire.  Willing buyer.  Willing seller.  No way to get money from buyer to seller.  I tried an alternate method, and that failed too.  So I've been running free for the past four months or so.  Not because I'm boycotting WG, but simply because I can't get money to them to buy their product.  

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,933 posts
8,575 battles
2 minutes ago, Patton5150 said:

A ship can be fun and unique without being OP.  Atlanta, for example.

Atlanta is just as OP as Belfast, I think there are too many of them out there for WG to do anything about. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
257
[--O--]
Members
452 posts

It is not hard to figure out how to solve problems and monetize the game.

First listen to your customers to the best of your abilities.

Premium ships should be special an to a degree a little better than other ships in the tier (EXAMPLE) Missouri it was the most advanced BB of its time and thus should be advanced in the game. Be it in consumables, weapons or just ability to generate Credits. All Premium ships need something to set them apart. 

I have said this several times now, the solution to much of the problems (setting aside cv issues) is the TIER'S. (SOLUTION) T-1 should never face anything but T-1 it is the introduction phase. T-2 through T-5 is not to bad right now but power-creep has come in a little and a few ships being moved around could help. T-6 and 7 are in a good place right now. The Problem starts at T-8 which could face t-12 paper ships that they never would have in real life (yes i know what this is) But in what world would any T-8 say maybe a IJN DD take on any of the t-10 paper-monsters? They wouldnt, no more than a Hash would take on a Kurfurst.

Wargaming could fix the entire tech tree and salve many problems while still keeping 2 tier match making and balancing out ships to meet ships they would have or might have tried to engage in battle.

If you pay for a Premium ship it should NEVER be buffed or nerfed upon release. The excuse of only so much testing can be done is [edited] there is many ways to get people to play the PTS or even (testers) could play them live server to see what they do and how they perform! But once you release it is as it is and that is it.

There is not a Premium in the game IMO is to overpowered for someone to not kill it, Yes a couple are very powerful and very hard to deal with, that is wargamings fault not the players. Hell put Kitakami in the Premium shop and even i might buy it one trick ponies can be fun. People want interesting ships even if they are a one-trick its a different play they like. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,706
[H_]
Members
3,351 posts
14,936 battles
1 hour ago, awiggin said:

Well, now that WG seems to have reversed course on the GC nerf, it's time for a reality pill....:Smile_teethhappy:

WG is stuck, they have realized that they can't sell enough premiums if they aren't at least somewhat OP compared to the tech tree. There simply aren't enough ship aficionados to sell historically significant ships. (Other than Missouri)

Really curious as to what players think WG should do, without shooting themselves in the wallet?

The "real paradox" is because the "value proposition" of the game is "WW2 naval combat;" and, WG's strategic intent is "arcade level shooter with ships..."  That is the paradox and the are exclusive goals.  They can't coexist. 

What WG should do?  That isn't an easy answer.  They tested the market with the cruiser line split radar gimmick to see what that did to revenue flow and to test the players hold on the value proposition.....  How tightly would the NA crew hold on to WW2 naval combat.....  Well, NA accepted the Radar meta and WG then immediately assumed the NA market was ready for the CV arcade changes..........  Boy, were they wrong !  This isn't WoTs where they converted the game into a FPS Arcade shooter and left the historic players alone to stay or leave (as a great many of us did en masse...!!!)   Now, here we are.  We lost a few players to radar and that was an acceptable loss in WG's eyes....  The problem is, those that left hurt clans.  The CV mess destroyed trust and many of us had a great sense of deja vu !  The fool me once saying became a rallying cry and the market rejected, en masse the changes....  You won't fool me twice....  Premium ships fall into the paradox because for arcade sales and nerf tactics, the premiums have to be OP to sell since the WW2 history guys/gals are all gone....  If they go back to WW2 naval combat and not a cheap arcade game format, premiums need to be historic and have unique values that make them different and not outlandishly OP....  The investment to WW2 is huge and a slow revenue curve that can last a long time vis-a'-vis and Arcade curve that produces more revenue faster but with a lot less duration because the market can't have OP premiums controlling matches very long.....

Long story made short:  WG has to decide what WoWs is to be tomorrow:  WW2 naval combat or a gimmicky FPS arcade shooter with ships.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,933 posts
8,575 battles
2 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

IMHO, the best way for WG to monetize the game is to have payment options available to allow paying customers to pay for products.

 

Amazon won't allow them to use their pay service b/c the containers are considered a form of gambling. 

Get rid of the crappy containers and get Amazon back. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[LRM]
[LRM]
Members
2,878 posts
7,061 battles
7 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

That post is sarcastic and trollish. It is meant to point out the inherent flaw in the arguments and decisions here lately, especially the level of hypocrisy. 

An obstructionist of what? What am I obstructing? You honestly think our input matters if it isn't just a flood of posts on a forum being tallied yay or nay?

Exactly my point made. Instead of a logical critique with evidence, it's an emotional tirade and tomfoolery. 

The last thing this community needs right now is more emotionalism. That's the obstructionism I speak of. This community has enough on its plate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,498
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,219 posts
21,232 battles
1 minute ago, Phil_Swift_With_Flextape said:

Exactly my point made. Instead of a logical critique with evidence, it's an emotional tirade and tomfoolery. 

The last thing this community needs right now is more emotionalism. That's the obstructionism I speak of. This community has enough on its plate.

That's cute and all, I don't really care what you think. Im not sure who you think you are or whatever, but again I dont care. If you could just not respond to me in the future, that would be great. I've already had enough of your Carrier Rework talk to last me a lifetime. Thanks in advance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,933 posts
8,575 battles
5 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Long story made short:  WG has to decide what WoWs is to be tomorrow:  WW2 naval combat or a gimmicky FPS arcade shooter with ships.........

This game has never, never, never been a sim. Not even on day 1.

The ships we have are in to provide SOME historical value, but their stats are changed as necessary to make the game fun and fast paced. 

Read the account of the hunt for Bismarck, an accurate WWII naval sim would be boring. Lots of sailing around and shooting water, where one lucky hit could disable or destroy your ship. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[LRM]
[LRM]
Members
2,878 posts
7,061 battles
1 minute ago, Skuggsja said:

That's cute and all, I don't really care what you think.(1) Im not sure who you think you are or whatever, but again I dont care. If you could just not respond to me in the future, that would be great.(2) I've already had enough of your Carrier Rework talk to last me a lifetime. Thanks in advance.

1. You are the poster child for the vitriol garbage that people sling at each other on these forums. Absolutely no respect for anyone "because it's the internet, there fore my 'sensibilities' say I don't have to be nice". I hope one day you see the error in this.

2. Are you referring to my thought out critique I posted yesterday? If so, than that makes sense, especially with your established character. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
600
[-BRS-]
Members
1,390 posts
6,577 battles

WG can sell balanced ships, they just can't charge these crazy prices for them.  If ships were $10-20 instead of $50-$60 they wouldn't have to make OP ships. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,498
[DEV_X]
Supertester
2,219 posts
21,232 battles
Just now, Phil_Swift_With_Flextape said:

1. You are the poster child for the vitriol garbage that people sling at each other on these forums. Absolutely no respect for anyone "because it's the internet, there fore my 'sensibilities' say I don't have to be nice". I hope one day you see the error in this.

2. Are you referring to my thought out critique I posted yesterday? If so, than that makes sense, especially with your established character. 

Did I not ask you to go away? You haven't earned my respect and you sure aren't going to.  You're holier than thou attitude here is abrasive annoying. No, I'm talking about more than a week ago when you annoyed the crap out of me with your incessant rambling. Please, stop responding to me. You won't be getting any respect here or beneficial conversation between the two of us. I don't care for you, I don't want to converse or discuss anything with you, and I find your holy white knight attitude annoying. Now please go away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,243 posts
5,495 battles
1 hour ago, awiggin said:

Well, now that WG seems to have reversed course on the GC nerf, it's time for a reality pill....:Smile_teethhappy:

WG is stuck, they have realized that they can't sell enough premiums if they aren't at least somewhat OP compared to the tech tree. There simply aren't enough ship aficionados to sell historically significant ships. (Other than Missouri)

Perhaps if this game had  generated the kind of numbers WOT has, (WOT RU currently has 20 times the player base WOWS has) it might be different, but it didn't and with the amount of turnover this game suffers with, it seems unlikely to get better.

So, what does WG do? Nerf entire classes aka the Murmansk AFT/BFT nerf? Buff tech lines after the fact? (If they buff tech lines, is it a stealth nerf?)

Or do they find another way to monetize the game? 

Really curious as to what players think WG should do, without shooting themselves in the wallet?

Go back and tweak tech tree ships that have been power crept to hell by newer tech trees AND premiums?

Maybe stop rushing ships out of the door before they have been properly balanced in the first place?

Block certain ships from being usable in competitive (heck, block all premiums if you want).

My objection to the change to the GC had nothing to do with the GC at all.  It had to do with the possibility that they could then allow ships to be released in a super OP broken state with the excuse that they could be balanced later.  It opened the possibility of abuse.

Premiums are still subject to nerfs through global changes.  Smoke fire, stealth fire, and radar are all examples of global modifications.

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
980
[LRM]
[LRM]
Members
2,878 posts
7,061 battles
4 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

Did I not ask you to go away? You haven't earned my respect and you sure aren't going to.  You're holier than thou attitude here is abrasive annoying. No, I'm talking about more than a week ago when you annoyed the crap out of me with your incessant rambling. Please, stop responding to me. You won't be getting any respect here or beneficial conversation between the two of us. I don't care for you, I don't want to converse or discuss anything with you, and I find your holy white knight attitude annoying. Now please go away.

The game is headed in a direction that concerns me. I decided instead of continuing my silent overview of the forums, to step up and speak out. Call it "white knight" and "incessant ramblings", but it's far more productive than advocating for OP premiums to be buffed while being a troll about it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×