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Shenanigans_Abound

The real truth about your blowout losses

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I posted this as a reply to someone a few minutes ago but since it’s going to get buried I wanted to make sure more people could see it. 

You all assume the blowouts are because of bad MM instead of looking at either your play or how your team mates played instead you try to find a reason to justify the blowout for anything but bad team play (I know as well as anyone the MM isn’t perfect but it succeeds 99 percent of the time) Now before the hate train starts on this keep in mind, some people know it’s a team based game that requires communication but a lot of people don’t, if the community would just take some time away from being toxic to bad players or misunderstanding players and help them understand what they might need to do differently in the future maybe this problem will slowly fix itself. The in game chat feature is supposed to be used for in game communication of battle plans but sadly 95 percent of the time it’s used for name calling and stat shaming( I’m just as guilty of it too in moments of extreme frustration)  sometimes players forgot an odd quirk of in game chat allows you to talk when you’re dead, call out enemy ships etc.. sometimes people get tunnel vision and don’t watch the map but you can if you’re dead, People claim they want better teams but don’t take the few minutes after they’re dead to help out that player who may not know what they’re doing wrong or what they did wrong. But I’m sure the general response to this will be “I never die my team does” like you’ve never been killed in a game before and if that’s your first thought then that’s part of the problem as well. People are so concerned with Kdr and staying alive like there is some sort of benefit... there isn’t. An afk yammy for entire game will have the same resupply charge as a yammy that did 250k but died, you living accomplishes nothing. I personally have no problem dying for the benefit of a win or contesting if it gets towards the ultimate goal of a victory but a lot of people do and that’s a problem in and of itself.  

 

edit- yeah i had a total brain collapse and originally named this loses- obviously not correct.. it happens and its been corrected :D

Edited by Shenanigans_Abound
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I'm not sure if this is intentional or not by WG but MANY times I get a game with foreign speaking teammates (Reds also have those in the same match) That SEVERELY limits any tactical team play planning. Don't just say "Use the ingame short messages" because you know what...they are in English as well. 9 times out of 10 those players will not follow your lead or offer any assistance, they just sail off with their "Brethren?" and fail miserably doing so. And 9 times out of 10 I'll be in the top 3 positions trying to carry but just can't communicate at critical times. 

 

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25 minutes ago, Botcha said:

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not by WG but MANY times I get a game with foreign speaking teammates (Reds also have those in the same match) That SEVERELY limits any tactical team play planning. Don't just say "Use the ingame short messages" because you know what...they are in English as well. 9 times out of 10 those players will not follow your lead or offer any assistance, they just sail off with their "Brethren?" and fail miserably doing so. And 9 times out of 10 I'll be in the top 3 positions trying to carry but just can't communicate at critical times. 

 

Maybe WG should institute an English proficiency exam for people playing on the NA server.

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Most matches start with something akin to 4v4 or a pair of 4v4 engagements.  If one team wins both 4v4s, the rout will usually follow.  If the 4v4s are split between the sides, it will remain close for a while.  4v3 at the C cap is a bigger problem than 12v11 is overall.  Start a snowball, make the losing team push, and enjoy/suffer the one sided fight.

It is far easy to hurt your team than to help it, especially at higher tiers, because anyone can go broadside and die at just about any point while a great player can only sink a red when given an opportunity to do so.  Great plays take time, bad plays can be done fast.

Personal observation from using MM mon and taking notes:  Avg WR isn’t a great predictor of winning, but avg XP is a little better.  This may be due to sample size (5000 battles in a ship gives you a good idea of their skill in it while 15 battles is not a good sample).   It is really only good for seeing if players have really good or bad play in a ship over many battles...but you never know if they will suffer from bad RNG or the potato will be a star that match.

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If you team loses one ship quickly at start, usually a DD, you may get by.  Lose 2 in the first two or three minutes through poor decisions and you've lost 1/6 of your team and that can be a tough row to hoe.

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1 minute ago, Spooooooooooooooooooooon said:

Nothing I like better than some dead guy in game giving me advice on how to succeed

Well I guess if you know what you’re doing then that part wouldn’t apply to you. Maybe that player giving advice took a lucky shot and detonated but is a lot better than you. You say “dead guy” assuming he’s worse than you because he’s dead. Lol. 

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2 minutes ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

Well I guess if you know what you’re doing then that part wouldn’t apply to you. Maybe that player giving advice took a lucky shot and detonated but is a lot better than you. You say “dead guy” assuming he’s worse than you because he’s dead. Lol. 

Most likely.  WoWs is well-known for the number of feathered porcine that congregate in Randoms.

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1 hour ago, Botcha said:

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not by WG but MANY times I get a game with foreign speaking teammates (Reds also have those in the same match) That SEVERELY limits any tactical team play planning. Don't just say "Use the ingame short messages" because you know what...they are in English as well. 9 times out of 10 those players will not follow your lead or offer any assistance, they just sail off with their "Brethren?" and fail miserably doing so. And 9 times out of 10 I'll be in the top 3 positions trying to carry but just can't communicate at critical times. 

 

Language has nothing to do with potato games.  I can find Potatoes regardless of language, nationality.

2 hours ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

I posted this as a reply to someone a few minutes ago but since it’s going to get buried I wanted to make sure more people could see it. 

You all assume the blowouts are because of bad MM instead of looking at either your play or how your team mates played instead you try to find a reason to justify the blowout for anything but bad team play (I know as well as anyone the MM isn’t perfect but it succeeds 99 percent of the time) Now before the hate train starts on this keep in mind, some people know it’s a team based game that requires communication but a lot of people don’t, if the community would just take some time away from being toxic to bad players or misunderstanding players and help them understand what they might need to do differently in the future maybe this problem will slowly fix itself. The in game chat feature is supposed to be used for in game communication of battle plans but sadly 95 percent of the time it’s used for name calling and stat shaming( I’m just as guilty of it too in moments of extreme frustration)  sometimes players forgot an odd quirk of in game chat allows you to talk when you’re dead, call out enemy ships etc.. sometimes people get tunnel vision and don’t watch the map but you can if you’re dead, People claim they want better teams but don’t take the few minutes after they’re dead to help out that player who may not know what they’re doing wrong or what they did wrong. But I’m sure the general response to this will be “I never die my team does” like you’ve never been killed in a game before and if that’s your first thought then that’s part of the problem as well. People are so concerned with Kdr and staying alive like there is some sort of benefit... there isn’t. An afk yammy for entire game will have the same resupply charge as a yammy that did 250k but died, you living accomplishes nothing. I personally have no problem dying for the benefit of a win or contesting if it gets towards the ultimate goal of a victory but a lot of people do and that’s a problem in and of itself. 

Player actions are what win / lose games.  You can be in an Overpowered ship but do dumb things to get the team to lose.  There have been players winning in mediocre, awful ships because they play correctly.

 

One of the first obstacles to getting better with the game is being able to honestly tell what went wrong after you got sunk, and any decision making you did that led to that.  If not, you keep on doing the same dumb mistakes and the Battles played keeps on getting higher with no improvement.

 

If things went to sh*t, you have to be able to honestly assess yourself if you were part of contributing to that sh*t show.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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28 minutes ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

Well I guess if you know what you’re doing then that part wouldn’t apply to you. Maybe that player giving advice took a lucky shot and detonated but is a lot better than you. You say “dead guy” assuming he’s worse than you because he’s dead. Lol. 

Exactly.  There's also the case that people who are being useless, get shot at less and therefore live longer.  Surviving in and of itself is not indicative of of good play.  Like that battleship sniping from the 10 line while the enemy controls 3 cap points, or goes to hang out at the no BB signs on North.  Yeah, you're still alive, but you were useless.  Just because you are alive doesn't mean you played well.  Conversely, the guy who died trying to make a play to cover for your useless stern didn't necessarily play poorly.

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2 hours ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

The in game chat feature is supposed to be used for in game communication of battle plans but sadly 95 percent of the time it’s used for name calling and stat shaming( I’m just as guilty of it too in moments of extreme frustration)  sometimes players forgot an odd quirk of in game chat allows you to talk when you’re dead, call out enemy ships etc.. sometimes people get tunnel vision and don’t watch the map but you can if you’re dead, People claim they want better teams but don’t take the few minutes after they’re dead to help out that player who may not know what they’re doing wrong or what they did wrong.

I understand entirely I'm guilty myself. I dont usually stat sham well because im quite crap myself so i dont mind stats but i do loose my cool quite often when someone does something i thought was stupid. And ive been trying to get better about it and have been for a long time doing what you're talking about in low tiers. When i see a BB shooting HE at another broadside BB i tell them to switch, If a cruiser is shooting ap at a broadside bb doing no damage ill tell them to shoot he, etc. However the issues ive found myself is the players at the lower levels dont pay attention or dont care to listen when you try to explain why shooting the S Carolina with AP from your Dresden isnt doing that much because hes aiming at the hull and to either switch to HE or shoot his superstructure. 

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4 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Exactly.  There's also the case that people who are being useless, get shot at less and therefore live longer.  Surviving in and of itself is not indicative of of good play.  Like that battleship sniping from the 10 line while the enemy controls 3 cap points, or goes to hang out at the no BB signs on North.  Yeah, you're still alive, but you were useless.  Just because you are alive doesn't mean you played well.  Conversely, the guy who died trying to make a play to cover for your useless stern didn't necessarily play poorly.

When you see a bunch of your teammates on the 9-10 Line at North / Northern Lights when the real fighting is for the caps, you can only shake your head.

 

Every time I see a Flamu video with those two maps, he's always commenting on his Potato teammates being out there, being useless.  It's pretty funny because I could relate and that it keeps happening every time.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I've come to strongly dislike BB players simply because they rarely seem to even try to play the objectives.  That's not their job.

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37 minutes ago, Spooooooooooooooooooooon said:

Nothing I like better than some dead guy in game giving me advice on how to succeed

There's been PLENTY of times I've had a solid plan set up that should have given me an extreme advantage to have a wrench thrown into my plan via random torps, a lucky salvo, constant CV attacks, another ship beating me there and getting a better shot on me. I could keep listing all of these situations where my death wasnt always my own stupidity. Now a good portion of my deaths are and when they are i know it but it doesnt mean another player cant see something you can do to improve. If we were all our own coaches we'd all be MVP every year. 

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1 hour ago, Botcha said:

I'm not sure if this is intentional or not by WG but MANY times I get a game with foreign speaking teammates (Reds also have those in the same match) That SEVERELY limits any tactical team play planning. Don't just say "Use the ingame short messages" because you know what...they are in English as well. 9 times out of 10 those players will not follow your lead or offer any assistance, they just sail off with their "Brethren?" and fail miserably doing so. And 9 times out of 10 I'll be in the top 3 positions trying to carry but just can't communicate at critical times. 

 

and it is THEIR fault that you apparently speak only one language ?

and before you say North AMERICAN server, there are at least 3 languages commonly spoken in NA :-)

 

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25 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

I've come to strongly dislike BB players simply because they rarely seem to even try to play the objectives.  That's not their job.

I was playing a Fuso yesterday and my DD and some CA player called me all sort of things that I did not follow my DD rushing into a cap but instead went a bit east to flank it.

(clarification... not 20km away to the border but to the EDGE of the CAP !!))

If I had followed him in I could support him with 4 guns, from the flank I fired 12

The DD and his CA friend both died, I finished first...

Edited by freggo
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This game this morning resulted in 1.8k base xp. I still made a mistake at the end and we likely would have won had I not done so.

I don't care that I made 1.8k base xp or had a great game, which I did; I still made mistakes.

The mistake I made was yolo rushing in an attempt to save the game. I should not have yolo rushed the way I did. So in a sense, I died and lost the game for my team because I followed your advice (though practically you probably would have died way earlier given your advice).

 

image.png.112e41121d4c77d5c282718b0c4f504a.png

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2 minutes ago, freggo said:

I was playing a Fuso yesterday and my DD and some CA player called me all sort of things that I did not follow my DD rushing into a cap but instead went a bit east to flank it.

If I had followed him in I could support him with 4 guns, from the flank I fired 12

The DD and his CA friend both died, I finished first...

And? 

Going to the flank in a Fuso is usually a terrible idea, yet here you are thinking that it's a good one.  This is exactly the mindset that makes me hate BB drivers.

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2 hours ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

I posted this as a reply to someone a few minutes ago but since it’s going to get buried I wanted to make sure more people could see it. 

You all assume the blowouts are because of bad MM instead of looking at either your play or how your team mates played instead you try to find a reason to justify the blowout for anything but bad team play (I know as well as anyone the MM isn’t perfect but it succeeds 99 percent of the time) Now before the hate train starts on this keep in mind, some people know it’s a team based game that requires communication but a lot of people don’t, if the community would just take some time away from being toxic to bad players or misunderstanding players and help them understand what they might need to do differently in the future maybe this problem will slowly fix itself. The in game chat feature is supposed to be used for in game communication of battle plans but sadly 95 percent of the time it’s used for name calling and stat shaming( I’m just as guilty of it too in moments of extreme frustration)  sometimes players forgot an odd quirk of in game chat allows you to talk when you’re dead, call out enemy ships etc.. sometimes people get tunnel vision and don’t watch the map but you can if you’re dead, People claim they want better teams but don’t take the few minutes after they’re dead to help out that player who may not know what they’re doing wrong or what they did wrong. But I’m sure the general response to this will be “I never die my team does” like you’ve never been killed in a game before and if that’s your first thought then that’s part of the problem as well. People are so concerned with Kdr and staying alive like there is some sort of benefit... there isn’t. An afk yammy for entire game will have the same resupply charge as a yammy that did 250k but died, you living accomplishes nothing. I personally have no problem dying for the benefit of a win or contesting if it gets towards the ultimate goal of a victory but a lot of people do and that’s a problem in and of itself. 

IF you could get the other 90% of the WoWS community to spend some time of the forums, then that would be the best start.  There are many people out there that are not competitive.  I have learned this many different times, through sports, board games and now computer games.  You cannot make a non competitive person competitive...you want to, they would have more fun, they would enjoy it!  But they do not, they play for FUN, and fun might mean charging the enemy, fun might mean playing the best they think THEY can, to learn to be better takes out the fun... I have seen this time and again.  I don't understand it... I think being competitive IS fun, to be better and get gud is FUN... but many don't ... you will never change them and if you harass them enough they will LEAVE...Not saying any of YOU reading this, we are here because we care about the game and we probably WANT to get better.  But face it folks... many players don't care, will not care and we are stuck with them.   Try to communicate in game, try and be competitive and try to have MORE fun.  CWs is for the competitive, and it works well that way, but to take that player base and say EVERYONE else has to be like us is a fallacy...the vast amount of people are NOT like  you.  Learn that and it gets a lot easier to figure people out.  Also there are young and old, who quite frankly do not have the skills yet or their natural physical ability now hampers them...one group may get gud, the other is just trying to hang on... they make up a good portion of our player base too.... some mentioned language barriers...valid point, some folks just will NEVER get it... I have led over 200 players in 3 clans it WoT and I know for a fact that I can explain something over and over and the player goes out and does the same mistakes... is the person dumb?  No, they just have trouble grasping, then get caught up on the moment and bad habits take over.  SO much goes into how a player plays this game...oh how many times do you read..."well I am so drunk now"  You can't drive cars well in RL, and you don't drive ships well inebriated...fact.  How about players on drugs?  There are a lot out there... are they better on drugs? I don't know...but it IS what we all deal with.   I try to instruct, I sometime get frustrated and say things I probably shouldn't but in the end I want everyone to play better....there probably is no solution for pubs.... just play.. do your best, encourage when you can, and have some fun!

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I wish there were a way to see my average damage in wins as opposed to average damage in losses. Maybe there is and I don't know about it. I'm under the impression that the amount of damage I do in a DD, has little to do with whether or not I win. And that means I'm almost totally at the mercy of my team to do the damage.

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8 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

And? 

Going to the flank in a Fuso is usually a terrible idea, yet here you are thinking that it's a good one.  This is exactly the mindset that makes me hate BB drivers.

Maybe you and I have a different interpretation here. I am not a border hugger or island kisser; I like to brawl up close and personal!

He went straight lined full speed dead center into the cap, I aimed for the east border of the cap, not 20clicks away!

 

Edited by freggo
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3 minutes ago, GoaJim said:

I wish there were a way to see my average damage in wins as opposed to average damage in losses. Maybe there is and I don't know about it. I'm under the impression that the amount of damage I do in a DD, has little to do with whether or not I win. And that means I'm almost totally at the mercy of my team to do the damage.

That is actually a great idea! Hello WG... you are reading this ?

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I do sometimes try and help my team mates by being an extra set of eyes to help them out since a red DD may only have appeared for a breed maybe meant for example and could easily be possible that some of your team in the area possibly did not see it. And calculating most likely target based on the DD position and help could help your team.

When giving such help I typically keep it very polite and to the point as to not distract the team by having to read long paragraphs. I do keep short hand  abbreviations to a minimum with only two nes use are BB,CA, DD, CV,  to prevent confusion and absolutely no profanity since that could annoy the team and only clutters up space in chat.

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When someone says "flanks" I assume 1 or 10 line moves, going around the outside of the cap.  In a slow battleship, getting stuck out there where there are no targets is bad.  BBs need to keep their guns firing as fast as they can.  They should be trying to melt the barrels, not camping islands like cruisers or trying to be kewl and "outflank" the enemy.  Slow USN BB's aren't going to out flank jack squat.

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2 hours ago, Shenanigans_Abound said:

I personally have no problem dying for the benefit of a win or contesting if it gets towards the ultimate goal of a victory but a lot of people do and that’s a problem in and of itself. 

I have learned to stop doing this after seeing way too many people throw the chances of winning even still.

Now, I figure that unless I can cause 3+ people to stay alive by dying, it's not worth throwing my ship away.

 

2 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

When someone says "flanks" I assume 1 or 10 line moves, going around the outside of the cap.  In a slow battleship, getting stuck out there where there are no targets is bad.  BBs need to keep their guns firing as fast as they can.  They should be trying to melt the barrels, not camping islands like cruisers or trying to be kewl and "outflank" the enemy.  Slow USN BB's aren't going to out flank jack squat.

This isn't correct at all.

I have found the better I get at battleships, the less often I fire.

Edited by enderland07
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