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KaptainKaybe

Why I am concerned about limited charge DCP on RU BBs

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So apparently, Wargaming seems intent on adding the limited charge DCP as a gimmick to the RU BB line. And this worries me.

The idea behind these limited DCP charges is that it will allow these ships to push hard at the enemy right away and shrug off fires and flooding due to the faster cooldown.

BUT ..

CCs have been testing these ships, and they do indeed seem strong ... but that's due to the crazy accuracy of her guns. And that's being nerfed a bit as of today, which makes sense. But they are also nerfing the immunity duration after using DCP and that's problematic on top of already having a problematic DCP. Now with a good division willing to help you push, that's fine. She doesn't need too much DCP if she can decimate a bunch of ships up close in the opening minutes of a match.

But that's never going to happen on the NA server. Or EU for that matter.

Here is what WILL happen to these ships:

First off, no one knows how to deal with them right now and don't know their weaknesses and how to exploit them. This will change and change fast once they go live. Once live, the RU BB players will *want* to push, but none of their teammates will be willing to push with them. This game has been around for ages and we all know this to be true. It's why German BBs are struggling a bit despite being incredibly tanky - No one wants to assist in a push, so they have to bide their time looking for an opening.

While this is going on and the RU BB needs to stay at range where they are less effective, every single cruiser within range will immediately focus HE on them to start fires. Every DD will toss torps at them to start floods. Every single carrier player will do both. As often as possible. Because they know that if can light even just two fires, that BB will have to lose 20% of their DCP potential or lose over a third of their health to those fires. If he *does* DCP it, they can just wait 10 more seconds and start the whole process all over again.

By the time these ships CAN push, they'll be down to 1 or 2 DCP charges remaining *at the most*. If they have more than that, then they'll have burned a ton of Repair Party charges instead to patch up all that DOT damage. Either way, they'll be in poor shape to push anything.

So now you're thinking "Oh, whatever, dude ... with the DCS2 upgrade as well as the captain skills BOS and FP, they'll be fine!"

Except no, they're not fine. No other ship *requires* a 17 point captain to play it even at low tiers. You *need* FP and BOS to keep those fires to a minimum. You also *need* CE to reduce the chances you'll be spotted early. And spotted early they will be. With DDs pushing forward and planes flying around everywhere, these ships will be lit up like christmas trees ... doused in gasoline.

And saying it's balanced because their armor is very HE resistant means squat. German BBs are also very HE resistant, and they have MUCH better tools available for brawling as is like Hydro, excellent secondary guns, and turtleback armor to resist citadels. Their problem is that they are most effective when the team is pushing and suffer when they are not ... exactly like the Russian battleships.

I don't have access to these ships now myself as I am not a CC or ST. But being a just above average player (52% WR), if I can figure it out, I'm certain so can everyone else. These ships will burn and burn hard. Unless they spend most of the match hiding. That's my prediction.

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Interesting observations.  I like the idea of strategic but limited use DCP as a line gimmick, as it is something different than the norm.  How it will balance out remains to be seen until these ships are finalized.

If they stay on the course they are, Russian BBs will have to be built for ultimate survivability over everything else.

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I think it'll come down to looking at the number of times the average BB player uses DCP. My concern with the limited charges is that 5 with SI and premium consumables seems a bit low. I'm absolutely not a DCP spammer myself and pretty much always let a single fire burn itself out. But even I find that I can use more than 5 charges on a regular basis. I think I'd be more open to limited charges if they were higher, like 6 or 7 of them instead of 5.

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Okt. Rev. has had limited DCP for ages without any issues. Low and mid tiers will do fine. High tiers could be iffier given the longer ranges and HE spam but if so it will be addressed. 

The player base as a whole is simply not as tactical in their thinking as you're assuming. I really doubt they'll see see RU BBs as a uniquely valuable target for HE. Most in fact will probably be unaware that they have limited DCPs to begin with. 

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A very good post sir, well constructed and delivered +1

It did strike me when you were describing the role the BB would play, how it seemed to mirror the role of the DD going forward into the kill zone. You mention the armour and heal may not be good enough - that certainly is the case with the concealment and manoeuvrability of the DD; the stats show this loud and clear!

However, unlike the many who just say 'well that is their role' regarding the DDs, I actually agree with you. Who wants to jump in a ship that has poor survival and is more likely to see the port quicker than anyone else - no one.

So I support making the life of this BB better 'if' it is shown to suffer (I do notice the Rev has very good stats at Tier V, but this may not transfer across). Let's wait and see.

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40 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

And this worries me.

If it worries you, don't play the line. Load HE whenever you see them, make free with torps, and enjoy the saltwater barbecue. The bow and side plate armour on some of those things makes them obscenely good at bow-tanking; there needs to be a weak spot, or people are going to scream about RU bias more than they are already.

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I heard that, in exchange for such limited DCP, RU BB's are incredibly resistant to cruiser shells, due to their armor scheme. They also have small-ish superstructure in general, and it seems they're incredibly resilient as they are.

If WG buffs their limited DCP charges, they're going to pick something else to be nerfed in exchange. But what? And as other people already mentioned, October Revolution seems to be doing just fine with limited DCP, so why would the rest of the line be exempt?

I suppose RU BB players would need to be smart about pushing, just like how German BB players are suppose to be.

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It should be noted that Russian BBs already have some big weaknesses, even if we set aside DCP

- Raised citadels above the waterline and facing the exterior. It means they are *very* vulnerable to citadels when showing broadside, even from short fuse British BB AP. Played properly, they can shine. Caught in a cross fire and they will die disastrously quick. Think Yamato or Roma.
- No Hydro when brawling, so DDs will have a field day. Torpedo belts also appear to be weak.
- AA is nothing special (except for the Kreml, I believe), so carriers will go into happy farming mode if these ships push ahead of their fleet and isolate themselves.
- Poor secondaries.
- Either no fighter plane or it shares the same slot as the anti-BB radar. Not sure. Either way, planes are needed to potentially spot other ships. Not to mention being added assistance against carrier strikes.

Those are all fairly significant when it comes to pushing and brawling. They have nowhere near the defensive capabilities of German battleships who also have loads of HE resistant armor everywhere. So the ONLY thing they have working for them by comparison is their accuracy up close, which is justifiably getting nerfed since it was indeed too strong. But nerfing the guns as well as the DCP immunity without touching any of the other concerns feels the opposite of russian bias.

So with all that in mind, I want to make sure that when these ships DO push, they are not hindered. Potentially losing all your DCP charges before you get a chance to is indeed pretty hindering. IMO.

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Personally I'd rather they relese new ships slightly underpowered rather the the norm as of late. Ships these days are generally released OP and we all complain when they nerf them or suffer from the inherent power creep. From what I can gather from the current Russian BB developments this wont be any different so I wouldn't worry too much about the DCP. 

In any case like all changes in this game I would love if the forum wasn't the land of sky falling before things are even half way done testing.

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Captain,

Thank you for your feedback on the upcoming RU BBs.

Please remember that the RU BBs are still in testing. 

Continue giving us constructive feedback!

Thanks.

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17 minutes ago, o0_BattleFlower_0o said:

Personally I'd rather they relese new ships slightly underpowered rather the the norm as of late. Ships these days are generally released OP and we all complain when they nerf them or suffer from the inherent power creep.

New lines have to be the "next best thing" in order to entice players to spend money on them. They're all OP at the start, then they get "balanced" into line once players have been enticed to spend money on them. 

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22 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

AA is nothing special (except for the Kreml, I believe), so carriers will go into happy farming mode if these ships push ahead of their fleet and isolate themselves.

Pretty sure this is wrong.

Russian BBs do not have small caliber mounts...and so can fire flak PLUS constant DPS down to 100 meters from the ship.

This is fundamentally superior to any battleship with the standard long/mid/short AA band setup.

No competent CV captain goes after any Russian ship without reckoning the imminent loss of most of his squadron.

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25 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

It should be noted that Russian BBs already have some big weaknesses, even if we set aside DCP

- Raised citadels above the waterline and facing the exterior. It means they are *very* vulnerable to citadels when showing broadside, even from short fuse British BB AP. Played properly, they can shine. Caught in a cross fire and they will die disastrously quick. Think Yamato or Roma.
- No Hydro when brawling, so DDs will have a field day. Torpedo belts also appear to be weak.
- AA is nothing special (except for the Kreml, I believe), so carriers will go into happy farming mode if these ships push ahead of their fleet and isolate themselves.
- Poor secondaries.
- Either no fighter plane or it shares the same slot as the anti-BB radar. Not sure. Either way, planes are needed to potentially spot other ships. Not to mention being added assistance against carrier strikes.

Those are all fairly significant when it comes to pushing and brawling. They have nowhere near the defensive capabilities of German battleships who also have loads of HE resistant armor everywhere. So the ONLY thing they have working for them by comparison is their accuracy up close, which is justifiably getting nerfed since it was indeed too strong. But nerfing the guns as well as the DCP immunity without touching any of the other concerns feels the opposite of russian bias.

So with all that in mind, I want to make sure that when these ships DO push, they are not hindered. Potentially losing all your DCP charges before you get a chance to is indeed pretty hindering. IMO.

I will disagree on that point. AA is very strong on the Russian BB Line.  I know I play CV and attacking one if it is more than 1/2 health is like throwing planes away, and that goes for everything from T7-T10 which is what I have faced.  They have obnoxious AA. 

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Somewhere, a certain royal marine mammal is eagerly awaiting the release the new brawling BB line.

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"- No Hydro when brawling, so DDs will have a field day. Torpedo belts also appear to be weak.
- AA is nothing special (except for the Kreml, I believe), so carriers will go into happy farming mode if these ships push ahead of their fleet and isolate themselves.
- Poor secondaries.
- Either no fighter plane or it shares the same slot as the anti-BB radar. Not sure. Either way, planes are needed to potentially spot other ships. Not to mention being added assistance against carrier strikes. "

I think you just described my Monarch.

"Those are all fairly significant when it comes to pushing and brawling. They have nowhere near the defensive capabilities of German battleships who also have loads of HE resistant armor everywhere."

Don't agree-

German BBs burn better than almost anything else I hit them with using Cleveland and Helena. I have a maxed Bismarck, and it burns at the slightest hint of HE from a DD on up. 

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I really wish WG would give Russian BBs an option of either the limited DCP, or just the standard DCP on normal BBs. 

In general I don’t think limited DCP is a fun gimmick, cause bad RNG and it could be out before the game ends.

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19 minutes ago, Ericson38 said:

German BBs burn better than almost anything else I hit them with using Cleveland and Helena. I have a maxed Bismarck, and it burns at the slightest hint of HE from a DD on up. 

Pure confirmation bias, Ericson. We know *for a fact* that all BBs of the same tier all have an exactly equal chance of catching fire when hit by the same HE shells. The reason it may seem that way is that many German BB captains play with secondary builds instead of the BOS/FP zombie builds popular on other ship lines.

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1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Pretty sure this is wrong.

Russian BBs do not have small caliber mounts...and so can fire flak PLUS constant DPS down to 100 meters from the ship.

This is fundamentally superior to any battleship with the standard long/mid/short AA band setup.

No competent CV captain goes after any Russian ship without reckoning the imminent loss of most of his squadron.

This was changed in... 0.8.0.1 I think?  Any ship that does not have short range mounts has no AA from 0.1km to 1km.   It's actually an exploitable weakness as a CV, since if you position your planes right you can recall literally on top of ships like Jean Bart or Republique without taking any losses after 1 drop.   If you do it wrong you tend to get wiped, but it's definitely a thing.

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1 hour ago, KaptainKaybe said:

It should be noted that Russian BBs already have some big weaknesses, even if we set aside DCP

- Raised citadels above the waterline and facing the exterior. It means they are *very* vulnerable to citadels when showing broadside, even from short fuse British BB AP. Played properly, they can shine. Caught in a cross fire and they will die disastrously quick. Think Yamato or Roma.
- No Hydro when brawling, so DDs will have a field day. Torpedo belts also appear to be weak.
- AA is nothing special (except for the Kreml, I believe), so carriers will go into happy farming mode if these ships push ahead of their fleet and isolate themselves.
- Poor secondaries.
- Either no fighter plane or it shares the same slot as the anti-BB radar. Not sure. Either way, planes are needed to potentially spot other ships. Not to mention being added assistance against carrier strikes.

Those are all fairly significant when it comes to pushing and brawling. They have nowhere near the defensive capabilities of German battleships who also have loads of HE resistant armor everywhere. So the ONLY thing they have working for them by comparison is their accuracy up close, which is justifiably getting nerfed since it was indeed too strong. But nerfing the guns as well as the DCP immunity without touching any of the other concerns feels the opposite of russian bias.

So with all that in mind, I want to make sure that when these ships DO push, they are not hindered. Potentially losing all your DCP charges before you get a chance to is indeed pretty hindering. IMO.

 

Personally i don't think any of those things are too bad.  The deck armor on some of those ships is absolutely crazy to the point where you would need IFHE on 203s to penetrate it with HE (Which naturally makes it more resistant to fire and damage).

-Almost any ship will suffer terribly under crossfire

-Hydro is basically a cruiser skill and German 'gimmick'

-AA will just melt planes on those ships it's ludicrous 

some battleships don't really ever use secondaries, ever.  Due to the lack of range on them so it wouldn't be a single nation problem

I don't see the point where  a 17 point captain would be 'needed'

BoS and Fire prevention should do just fine so just a standard 10pt.  Anything after that is icing on the cake.  If people start flinging shells at me in excess in any ship.  You start sailing away.  You might not earn all the XP in the world but if you haven't over committed you should be able to live

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1 hour ago, o0_BattleFlower_0o said:

Personally I'd rather they relese new ships slightly underpowered rather the the norm as of late. Ships these days are generally released OP and we all complain when they nerf them or suffer from the inherent power creep. From what I can gather from the current Russian BB developments this wont be any different so I wouldn't worry too much about the DCP. 

In any case like all changes in this game I would love if the forum wasn't the land of sky falling before things are even half way done testing.

I'd rather they be released in an underpowered state because most of them didn't exist and being a blueprint design should not be considered carte blanche to do whatever you want with its parameters just to make it better than things that were actually built and battle-tested.

 

Make Kreml play like an actual prototype (constant breakdowns, unreliable performance) instead of an Anime Prototype (stronger than the production model for some reason)

 

Because an incompetent, unreliable theoretical ship accurately represents the incompetent, unreliable navy that theoretically built it.

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59 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Pure confirmation bias, Ericson. We know *for a fact* that all BBs of the same tier all have an exactly equal chance of catching fire when hit by the same HE shells. The reason it may seem that way is that many German BB captains play with secondary builds instead of the BOS/FP zombie builds popular on other ship lines.

If they are all the same, then what is the problem again with this aspect of the game ?

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A few mentions I must do before I start:

a. All stuff is WiP, you know the drill, I just don‘t want an NDA-strike so for the protocoll I noted it here.

b. My insight is from playing a handful of games mostly in Lenin and Kreml, and one game in the T5 whose name I forgot.

In my experience the limited number of charges is not too much of an issue. How things usually played out was that I got myself into an aggressive position, and then used the firing angles and short range accuracy to lock the area down. Key being to know how to use terrain, and to know what targets you should be striking. The firing angles in combination with the above mentioned criteria resulted in the scenarios where I would only face one or two ships at one time, and that HE spam would not be able to freely set fires as the profile I offered was too small to accurately hit rear sections for additional fires. With that I wouldn‘t have to burn (pun intended) my DCP too often, and be nearly immune to incoming AP fire. Note, I have yet to run out of DCP charges, I am really cheap in that regard.

You bring a comparison to German BBs, and it is somewhat true. However, it misses out on one important factor. The German armor scheme is designed around the idea that you can‘t avoid showing your side, which with the turret angles (especially GK) is a thing. Soviet BBs on the other hand can usually remain angled near or even within the autobounce territory and avoid citadel damage, provided the captain did not overextend. These ships do not have the fool-proof idea of German BBs. If they get shot into the side, they are utterly ded. If they can manage their positioning, they will be like a rock in the ocean, resisting wave after wave without itching one bit.

The Soviet BB build does demand some investment, but then again: What else are you gonna invest in? They don‘t really support Secondaries like the Germans or French do. Nor do they support AA builds like the Americans. It‘s Survivability or nothing. So not like you have a choice anyway :Smile_teethhappy:

 

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1 hour ago, Kenjister said:

This was changed in... 0.8.0.1 I think?  Any ship that does not have short range mounts has no AA from 0.1km to 1km.   It's actually an exploitable weakness as a CV, since if you position your planes right you can recall literally on top of ships like Jean Bart or Republique without taking any losses after 1 drop.   If you do it wrong you tend to get wiped, but it's definitely a thing.

Huh.

Missed that patch note.

Thanks! :)

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I get your point but is it that different from another BB play ?

 

I often play my Yamato and Musashi agressively, while this ship doesn't have near Kurfurst level of HE protection, when angled it still one of the best in my book. When I'm being forced to tank, with my FP, I often have 1 fire on the superstructure because that's where people aim but I rarely get a second fire on my bow or stern. It can happen but then I just reverse into cover, repair fire, heal a bit and go back. I had game in my Yamato where I had Dreadnaught and Fireproof but I didn't used my damage con a single time, only my heal. 

 

I think the DCP on soviet BB isn't that much an issue if you know how to angle and how to position in the ship but again, this works for basically all BB. How many damage con Soviet BB have with premium charge and SI ? 5 I think ? Well those 5 are enough if you can play without overextending or being out of position. If you're being very agressive in your Kurfurst or Bismarck, you might use 5 DCP, or even a sixth one if you get unlucky torps for instance but I don't think I've ever used more than 6 DCP in a game. Heal on the other hands if very valuable and sometime it straight up replace my DCP. Remember that 1 fire or 1 flooding can be 100% healed and if you're getting HE spam in those soviet ship, you'll mostly get damaged by fire rather than HE so you can basically heal all that fire damage and you barely lost a few HP because of those few HE pen.

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