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Sovereigndawg

Fix Defense of Newport Scenario

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Well I suppose I won't be playing much this week. Way too many losses on Newport when using random teams. When Newport is the scenario I just do the minimum for missions and then quit playing. It would behoove you to make changes WG, I am sure I am not the only one that hates losing 90% or more of the Newport battles.

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20 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Well I suppose I won't be playing much this week. Way too many losses on Newport when using random teams. When Newport is the scenario I just do the minimum for missions and then quit playing. It would behoove you to make changes WG, I am sure I am not the only one that hates losing 90% or more of the Newport battles.

They don't seem to care....

Aegis is really the only one worth playing with random teams now, too many players who seem to be unable to shoot and drive...

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Newport was always the worst, though Raptor Rescue really competes for that title.

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13 minutes ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Newport was always the worst, though Raptor Rescue really competes for that title.

I always liked Raptor. I was usually able to get five stars just by leading the charge in my Warspite.

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I always though Ultimate Frontier was the worst with random teams.

 

At least with Defence of Naval Station Newport you all start in the same area so you can do a bit of light carrying or render some extra shell in aid of someone who for whatever reason is making hard work at that moment in time due to RNG or a bit of miss-positioning.

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19 minutes ago, 1Sherman said:

I always liked Raptor. I was usually able to get five stars just by leading the charge in my Warspite.

You're an exception, not the rule. Most randoms completely fail at Raptor.

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My biggest gripe with ops is the inconsistency. Some are way too easy, some are way too hard. 

A PUG should be able to 3-star every op without too much trouble. 

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1 hour ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Well I suppose I won't be playing much this week. Way too many losses on Newport when using random teams. When Newport is the scenario I just do the minimum for missions and then quit playing. It would behoove you to make changes WG, I am sure I am not the only one that hates losing 90% or more of the Newport battles.

WG doesn't listen or care about problems in Operations, UF has been a dumpster fire for awhile numerous posts have been made all to no avail.

Defence of Newport has always been a tough Op but no where near the disaster that is UF . Anything to do with PvE takes a back seat in WOWS ,take a look at the Exeter mission, shoot down 30 planes in Co-op? There are no enemy CVs in Co-op! There excuse was "it was a oversite"and will try harder next time!?! UF, and Newport are easy fixes , the elimination of a few red ships in the Op would cure the problem,let's see how long it takes WG to do ANYTHING concerning Ops.

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Remove this operation pls. I can't make credits off it. This "destroy all ships before main fleet arrives" condition made this op impossible to pass with 5 stars.

Edited by tinfoilpaperweight
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2 hours ago, KiyoSenkan said:

Most randoms completely fail at Raptor.

The trouble I have had with Raptor is occasionally a fail team but as often when Raptor's helmsman decides to do something absurdly stupid and the ship itself does not enter the base before the end. I've had this happen when ALL the enemy ships were dead.

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This is why I looked for people to play with and has resulted in an Operations discord, so there isn't a need to play with random pickup groups or simply avoid the operation altogether in favor or other ones. While the regulars get on later in the evening/night, that doesn't mean people can't join and jump in voice during other times.

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I only really pug Aegis and then only if Operations channel is dead. I usually have Ops channel open so ask in the channel, especially if Defense is the op of the week, lot of divisions are up doing something else. Honestly even with a good group I hate Defense. I am one of those who don't do well in it.

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21 minutes ago, jayhawk226 said:

I only really pug Aegis and then only if Operations channel is dead. I usually have Ops channel open so ask in the channel, especially if Defense is the op of the week, lot of divisions are up doing something else. Honestly even with a good group I hate Defense. I am one of those who don't do well in it.

I am not talking about the in game operations channel. There is an operations discord server that I am one of the admins for.

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This operation (Defense) is very difficult to win generally and especially hard to win 5 stars. 

I’d like to see some changes to it which I s why I like my idea of coupons or rewards dropping to allow players to use a higher tier ships in these missions because it can help level the playing field for the players occasionally. Especially this op and Raptor Rescue. It’s not about a player trying to boost numbers it’s about helping the team achieve 5*.

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Yes there have been some bad games today.  No need to talk about those, cause everyone's got them.

Those great games are nice. DD, knew how to play his ship and kicked butt.  Random pug,  tactical expertise.

 

/AND I will leave a general rant.  BBs,  should always be up right at the line.  Even if you can't tank for your teammates,  cause the bots wont shoot you.  The time for your shells to hit is improved and the accuracy too.   The quicker you can smash them,  saves objectives as well as your cruiser teammates! 

 

shot-19_03.13_21_55.32-0498.thumb.jpg.77cfb394a7a132a67f26382d253b54cb.jpg

Spoiler

shot-19_03.13_21_55.25-0346.thumb.jpg.56df9c4d7e908fd07a4c0421e78d625c.jpg    

 

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"Dont let the enemy ships breach the line" while you spend 90% of the match on fire and missing at point blank ranges and AI can thread shells through impossible gaps on islands to do full penetration or citadel damage.

 

SEEMS LEGIT

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On 3/13/2019 at 11:29 AM, b101uk said:

I always though Ultimate Frontier was the worst with random teams.

Narai is the worst with random teams. No one actually tries to complete all the objectives and get five stars.

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Just now, 1Sherman said:

Narai is the worst with random teams. No one actually tries to complete all the objectives and get five stars.

there is an element of that, but by the same token it's better to get 2, 3 or 4 stars and a win than waste time on something that will probably otherwise be a loss, if people have died early that result in others chasing the CV or the civilian ship while leaving the harbour area with insufficient mixed firepower, in Narai with randoms I have far more 5 star wins than total losses when it is the weekly operation, though 3 & 4 star are the most popular.

 

but look how often ultimate frontier will fail for zero stars with random teams in the last minute or so.

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2 hours ago, b101uk said:

there is an element of that, but by the same token it's better to get 2, 3 or 4 stars and a win than waste time on something that will probably otherwise be a loss, if people have died early that result in others chasing the CV or the civilian ship while leaving the harbour area with insufficient mixed firepower, in Narai with randoms I have far more 5 star wins than total losses when it is the weekly operation, though 3 & 4 star are the most popular.

 

but look how often ultimate frontier will fail for zero stars with random teams in the last minute or so.

I've gotten a lot more losses on Narai than I have Ultimate Frontier. On the latter, you don't need to be as coordinated and hyper-aggressive as you do in the former. I've found that the only way to get five stars on Narai is if everyone pushes ahead of the convoy in one big mass and doesn't slow down for any reason.

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Kinda wished they changed Izumo into a stock configuration instead of an upgraded hull with all those AA mounts.

It practically makes Izumo a no fly zone for tier 6 CVs not to mention a number of DFAA cruisers that spawns in the ops.

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I profoundly despise Defense of Naval Station Newport.  This is the only scenario that results in a 90% drop in my number of battles per day whenever it is the op of the week.  It has been this way for the last 6 months at least.  At least with the old Cleveland, you had the firepower to carry a team of potatoes.  In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the original "balancing" was done with the Cleveland in mind.  Given that nothing comes close to that level of firepower now, this operation is a constant lesson in frustration.  It needs to be reworked (ie: massively toned down) with the current tier 6 ships in mind.

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I agree with those who say that Newport needs to be toned down. My personal belief is that a team of completely random players should be able to hope to win the Operation with at least 1 star at least half the time. When it comes to Newport and Ultimate Frontier in particular winning period is near impossible.

My suggested fix for Newport would be to replace some of the destroyers with an additional battleship, particularly in the 2nd and 3rd waves. 

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On 3/14/2019 at 2:02 AM, awiggin said:

They don't seem to care....

Aegis is really the only one worth playing with random teams now, too many players who seem to be unable to shoot and drive...

It helps that Aegis is actually fun. Killer Whale is alright too.

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Arrrghh,  just had such a good Newport game(in PEF to my surprise) that was soured by Bot targeting AI.  I'd probably call it unfair.  This also occurs in Ultimate Frontier(currently not avail ingame) in a more infuriating, worse way.

 

This is about the Konig that spawns with the last wave of ships in the far west of Newport.  Due to the way it navigates and islands/obstacles around,  it ends up shooting at objectives sometimes, but specifically even when players are in the open it shoots support buildings.  And in this game, we lost 1 star in the last 30-40secs due to this.

 

-I'm going to sum up the circumstance as best as I can.  We had a cruiser engaging Konig at 3-4km for a bit time(to have a random Operations game where a player is actively getting a jump on this Konig is super rare.)  The cruiser was sunk by the Konig as I was 8.8km away from it in my PEF BB.  There was clear open water between the two of us.  It never fired at me and took 2 deliberate salvos at the support buildings ashore. The last one knocked out a building and cost us a star.

So now I'm going through the possible thought processes one might have about this particular situation.  

-If your team is beat up and trying to maintain heals in the zones,  or badly positioned at this time,  I can understand with the fluctuating line of sight that the Konig will have to shoot something.  And losing a support building,  will cost us a star and in this instance I have no issues with that.

-When I am engaging the Bot Konig and it ignores me,  what am I doing wrong here.  What should the players that encounter it, be learning from this?  That,  you or your team just wasn't quick enough or perfect shooters so you lose a star.   Or could this situation play out differently if I wasn't in a BB...  So too bad,  the player was trying to help with the objective but he was the wrong ship class so the bot ignores it and screws all 7 players out of a star...  

 

So I'm wanting to know if there is an overlooked issue with the AI BOTS targeting priority?  Maybe one or two small things out of place.  Or is this just a "get good" moment and is intended for the players to deal with?

And with how fluid and ever changing the engagements are,   maybe it doesn't happen enough to raise an eyebrow.  It may be as simple as a singular moment from a random player shell salvo,  a DD torp wave, or CV attack against the Bot Konig that affects it in a game and it doesn't snipe a shore building.

BUT when it does it, while there is a player actively engaging it.   It feels like the game is cheating you...!     

 

Moving onto "The Ultimate Frontier", which is not avail, under rework?

There are a lot of different opinions, on what is wrong or what the player base doesn't like about it.  I'm going on again with specifically what I feel is unfair.  It is related to the BOT targeting that I've already gone in length about.

-This particular situation has happened very similarly this way 3 different times I can recall(and has happened with different compositions too).  Survival is a bigger challenge for cruisers on this map with the numerous waves and quantities of enemy ships.  So toward the end of the operation, you have 2 player BBs remaining in my specific examples.  The enemy bots remaining are commonly 1BB, 2cruisers with +or- 1 ship and sometimes the bot DDs are still around.  I will talk more about the bot BB because of the alpha strike ability of the class to cause the problem(even though it sometimes seem to have wonky dispersion against buildings).

 

-I will be working with estimates on the ranges,  but what is clear is the line of sight of attacking ships.     

The enemy Alabama??(T8 USN BB is still the one i remember most in several encounters) is sailing directly at the Aerodrome and I will reference positions from the Bot BBs point of view.  So the Aerodrome is at 12 o'clock and around 14km away.    One player BB is at the bots 2 o'clock, 6km away and this player alone is the very telling of what I'm trying to describe.  So the Aerodrome itself is a clear 8KM behind a player ship, yet it ignores the player completely.  It may redundant to list the 2nd player,  but I want to round out the details of this situation. The second BB player was at the 10 o'clock position and about 10km away.  There are some islands/rocks to the WEST that can affect line of sight, but this second player has moved clear of it and has a shot on the Bot BB and vice-versa.  Another thing to point out is both players are at around 75%+ health.  Both players are ignored by the bot and it fires a few salvos to destroy the Aerodrome(which has about 35k health?) and instant FAILS the mission.  You could have a pretty good game and be on track for 4-5 Star finish.  You did well for the first 15-16mins of the mission,  and suddenly you end up with an unwinnable situation.   How is a player supposed to counter this situation.  Using a Tier 7 BB,  to overcome this scenario would require a player to one-shot a USN T8 BB bow on ASAP to prevent it from getting more chances at the aerodrome. And sometimes the player will also be under harassment from the remaining BOT cruisers and DDs that can't hit the Aerodrome,  probably because of range and landmass that can block shots from the western approach.  That isn't reasonable to me,  but maybe I'm not a good enough player..

-Now I do remember an odd time or two where the enemy BB did not exclusively focus the aerodrome.  And I think that was with low health player BBs. So the bots would try to sink the players,  and now players are part of the game again.  Rather than a situation where you can't really do anything to affect it.  And what if the 2 remaining players had high health or were cruisers instead of BBs.  Hmm, would that change anything.  The Bots generally have a laser focus against player cruisers.

 

-So I have to ask again,  is there a possibility there might be an issue with the BOT AI in regards to target priority in certain unique situations. If it is the case, then great!  It needs to be looked at and fixed. This puts the game towards improvement, more consistently fair and enjoyable modes/maps for the player base.  And if Hard difficulty is implemented,  it can cover the different experiences that average and skilled players might want from Scenarios.

But if this is intended(the act of AI BOTS ignoring players that are in a certain ship type or health status),  is it fair?  In Newport, you lose a star and TUF you instantly lose the mission no matter how well you did the other 95% of it.

 

I am trying to be fair and looking at it different ways.  But the outcome always goes to feeling CHEATED when this happens in Ultimate Frontier.  If it is intended as a way to add difficulty,  the designers have to find a better way to do it. (When or IF,  the scenario comes back.) 

From all of what I said,  it may be an uncommon issue.    But the fact it happens at all,  making a player feel cheated I think is one of the worst to happen.

 

Not sure who would be best to tag,  to see if there is anything here worth taking a look.

 

@iKami  @Femennenly

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