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CommodoreKang

To DefAA or Not To... What are your thoughts?

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I'm thinking no.  Just started playing again and have had a couple games with no CV and the last one I ate a torp in the late game which is annoying.  Mostly my fault of course but hydro would have saved me from driving into it.

But even a CV match, does DefAA really have enough combat impact to outweigh slotting hydro?  

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Hydro wont really save you from torps dropped from planes. I mostly stick with Defensive AA, especially if I'm using a ship that has radar.

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Hydro is nice for pushing DDs in smoke.  I miss having it available, I may switch back to it on my cruisers.

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I think not just depends on the actual ship and its stats. Defensive AA might be good on an American cruiser but is it really worth it on a Japanese cruiser to boost the limited AA? I dont think there is really a wrong answer though, just in the IJN you wont get as much benefit as in the USN cruiser tree, as an example.

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14 minutes ago, Starfleet1701 said:

Hydro wont really save you from torps dropped from planes. I mostly stick with Defensive AA, especially if I'm using a ship that has radar.

Yeah, but let's say you're stalking a DD in the late game and you get the kill on them but you eat a torp and die yourself in the process.  Hydro will prevent that death.  Will DefAA prevent a CV from killing you in the late game if they decide they want to for some reason?

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10 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Hydro is nice for pushing DDs in smoke.  I miss having it available, I may switch back to it on my cruisers.

Yes it is.  It's nice in many, many situations.  Can make all the difference in many of those many situations. 

DefAA?  I never found it that impactful pre-rework and my little experience post hasn't changed that opinion to this point.

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8 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

I think not just depends on the actual ship and its stats. Defensive AA might be good on an American cruiser but is it really worth it on a Japanese cruiser to boost the limited AA? I dont think there is really a wrong answer though, just in the IJN you wont get as much benefit as in the USN cruiser tree, as an example.

True enough.  But I'm not convinced that it's even worth it on the US line.  I'd rather eat the chipping damage and let RNG do it's thang.

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Double posted somehow...

Edited by Skuggsja

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55 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

True enough.  But I'm not convinced that it's even worth it on the US line.  I'd rather eat the chipping damage and let RNG do it's thang.

Slaughtering their airgroups will frustrate them and lead them to play something else though.  That's a net win.

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American cruisers dfaa is sooooooooooooo worth it. Slaughters airgroups! 

IJN the fighter/dfaa combo is effective. 

Mino is down right nasty. 

I see cvs more frequently now but their appearances seems to be diminished over the past week

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7 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Slaughtering their airgroups will frustrate them and lead them to play something else though.  That's a net win.

Couldn't agree more.  My experience pre-rework was that you might get one DefAA off in the early game but it never really seemed that impactful.  In the late game, it's useful but, at that point, you're likely being focused and so that only helps on the first wave and often your AA is shot to hell making it even less effective.  And, in a big chunk of games, I never got to use it at all.  

With CVs being less effective, I just wonder if you're presence as an AA menace is enough.

(btw 3 games and 3 games without CVs (not complaining))

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5 minutes ago, wstugamd said:

I see cvs more frequently now but their appearances seems to be diminished over the past week

Yeah and then that leads to the other issue.  The old hydro/DefAA/MM dance.  That also never works out well. 

See a CV in the Q?  Drop out and load DefAA.  Then get back in and get matched with no CV.  But, as soon as you put hydro back on, you're gonna get a CV.  Take it off and put DefAA back on and that's almost guaranteed no cv matching.  I'm almost positive that is a coded into the match maker. 

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1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

I'm thinking no.  Just started playing again and have had a couple games with no CV and the last one I ate a torp in the late game which is annoying.  Mostly my fault of course but hydro would have saved me from driving into it.

But even a CV match, does DefAA really have enough combat impact to outweigh slotting hydro?  

Ships like Graf Spee where you really need certain skills that help with surface combat mostly and little to none on AA. Those kind of ships I often equip premium Defensesive AA on and premium Catapult fighters if possible. Simply because Graf Spee and ships like it can’t do too much with AA on their own. 

But it depends on the role of your ship as well, since some of the IJN CAs that I favor using as DD hunters I may still equip hydro on if their AA and cat fighter are adequately up to the task of AA defense.

Other ships like Salem I am able to take both Hydro and Defensive AA to deal more effectively with both threats. And in the case of Salem losing the radar to gain hydro makes me feel better as Radar does not detect Torps.

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4 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

If the ship has it, you bet DFAA is the key.

My question is when you have to choose between hydro and DFAA.  Probably wasn't clear enough about that in the OP.  

I'm not convinced it's key in that situation.  Would welcome being convinced otherwise.

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As a guy who's played a lot of CV since the rework, but still does the other classes, it super depends on ship.

I took out one of my several Myoko's today - DefAA helped it wipe a fair few planes from a Lex from the skies.

Something like Balti or Cleveland - AA alone is currently overkill if your already speced. 

And even in something like a Myoko (I went rogue and was solo but still knew CV couldn't hit me hard enough, the 6 BB's that suddenly showed up from my spotting though....) stay with a couple ships, especially decent or good AA ones, you don't need Def AA.

That and if you go solo in most DD's - unless your Kidd, Gearing, Fletcher, or 1 or 2 of the RU bias DD's (do they even GET Def AA for the insane damage they've done?) and maybe 1-2 others, maybe a cruiser with terribad AA like a Kron - then no amount of Def AA will save you from someone like me, let alone the top tier players because yes, the skill gap is back in all it's glory with how flak is and them nerfing things wrong, again, just like RTS. 

Case in point -

Spoiler

shot-19_03.09_22_23.27-0814.thumb.png.0d2710225fbef9307fe7d21fa172e278.png

I managed to catch most of those ships isolated, with not so great AA, and no idea if Benson was full AA or not but if he was - didn't save him. Of these arguably Hipper had the roughest AA. Which is half the issue with the rework, which was the issue with RTS. Much as I was using Saipan (more HP per plane but overall lower HP than Lex's and still rekt by a flak hit) - anything that especially gets isolated with not great AA - well see above, anything with remotely close to good AA - planes barely, if at all, make it through, similar story when teams all group up in 4-12 ships. 

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Ships like Graf Spee where you really need certain skills that help with surface combat mostly and little to none on AA. Those kind of ships I often equip premium Defensesive AA on and premium Catapult fighters if possible. Simply because Graf Spee and ships like it can’t do too much with AA on their own. 

But it depends on the role of your ship as well, since some of the IJN CAs that I favor using as DD hunters I may still equip hydro on if their AA and cat fighter are adequately up to the task of AA defense.

Other ships like Salem I am able to take both Hydro and Defensive AA to deal more effectively with both threats. And in the case of Salem losing the radar to gain hydro makes me feel better as Radar does not detect Torps.

True.  i'm mostly in the DM and mostly hunting\supporting DDs wherever I can.  Hydro allows you to be much more aggressive in that play style.   DefAA is great and all but you can't use it offensively and even defensively it feels a little meh even if the overall AC damage numbers make it numerically viable.

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2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

True.  i'm mostly in the DM and mostly hunting\supporting DDs wherever I can.  Hydro allows you to be much more aggressive in that play style.   DefAA is great and all but you can't use it offensively and even defensively it feels a little meh even if the overall AC damage numbers make it numerically viable.

If you enjoy aggressive play in DM, you should give Salem a try. Salem gets a super heal much like some Royal Navy ships get, and only has to trade in Radar range and the smallest caliber AA guns to get it. Which the AA in practice does not feel all that different, and after few HE hits your AA betwen DM and Salem become equal. After all those really small caliber AA guns tend to be the easiest to have become destroyed by incoming HE hits. But as far as main guns, mobility and armor DM and Salem are equal, which really makes the Super Heal stand out nicely between the two ships.

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6 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

I managed to catch most of those ships isolated, with not so great AA, and no idea if Benson was full AA or not but if he was - didn't save him. Of these arguably Hipper had the roughest AA. Which is half the issue with the rework, which was the issue with RTS. Much as I was using Saipan (more HP per plane but overall lower HP than Lex's and still rekt by a flak hit) - anything that especially gets isolated with not great AA - well see above, anything with remotely close to good AA - planes barely, if at all, make it through, similar story when teams all group up in 4-12 ships. 

Good point.  My gameplan coming back was: 

Play normally when there's no CV.  Play into the lemming train when there is a CV.  Forget about the objectives.  Stay together, stay alive and hope the other team does the same.  ANd maybe if you're lucky your group will go somewhere useful.

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

If you enjoy aggressive play in DM, you should give Salem a try. Salem gets a super heal much like some Royal Navy ships get, and only has to trade in Radar range and the smallest caliber AA guns to get it. Which the AA in practice does not feel all that different, and after few HE hits your AA betwen DM and Salem become equal. After all those really small caliber AA guns tend to be the easiest to have become destroyed by incoming HE hits. But as far as main guns, mobility and armor DM and Salem are equal, which really makes the Super Heal stand out nicely between the two ships.

Yeah, I was thinking about picking that up before the re-work.  Just haven't had the confidence in the game to invest too much more at this point.  I've ran into a few Salems and they are tough cookies especially late game.

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23 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

My question is when you have to choose between hydro and DFAA.  Probably wasn't clear enough about that in the OP.  

I'm not convinced it's key in that situation.  Would welcome being convinced otherwise.

If I have to chose, I go with DFAA at mid-tiers to T7, and Hydro T8 and up on ships with stronger AA. Its' a toss-up on a game per game basis as you never know what MM will throw at you, and the wrong consumable will lead to an early salt water bath. Until the CV rework Cleveland and Baltimore both had Hydro most of the time.

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1 minute ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

If I have to chose, I go with DFAA at mid-tiers to T7, and Hydro T8 and up on ships with stronger AA. Its' a toss-up on a game per game basis as you never know what MM will throw at you, and the wrong consumable will lead to an early salt water bath. Until the CV rework Cleveland and Baltimore both had Hydro most of the time.

What's your thought process around bringing it up to T7?  DDs not as much a threat there, more CVs at those tiers?

Regarding MM, I came to the conclusion pre-rework that you just pick Hydro and deal with the times you wished you had DFAA.  Many more times I'd end up wishing I had Hydro even when there was a CV. 

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13 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Play normally when there's no CV.  Play into the lemming train when there is a CV.  Forget about the objectives.  Stay together, stay alive and hope the other team does the same.  ANd maybe if you're lucky your group will go somewhere useful.

Ideally lemming a bit towards the caps but yeah. Unless your in Mino, Salem, etc. Some of these ships are borderline if not outright immune to attack from CV's, on their own - in Mino's case no Def AA needed. Least from your average CV top tier players may have skills to dodge but current stealth AA (sorry but most of this despite the last hotfix is still stealth in my book given I can't see a ship like Mino till it fires a salvo at my planes) has made things an issue.

But that's this week - give it about 5 more days and WG will likely take another sledgehammer swing that goes the other way and Def AA will be near if not mandatory. All under why many of us told Wargaming to postpone the patch because this just wasn't going to end well and be harder to fix than they thought. True answer is you gotta play by ear week to week just about based on whatever insane hotfix or patch comes out this week, and the next, and the next, till maybe they figure this mess out. 

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2 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Ideally lemming a bit towards the caps but yeah. Unless your in Mino, Salem, etc. Some of these ships are borderline if not outright immune to attack from CV's, on their own - in Mino's case no Def AA needed. Least from your average CV top tier players may have skills to dodge but current stealth AA (sorry but most of this despite the last hotfix is still stealth in my book given I can't see a ship like Mino till it fires a salvo at my planes) has made things an issue.

But that's this week - give it about 5 more days and WG will likely take another sledgehammer swing that goes the other way and Def AA will be near if not mandatory. All under why many of us told Wargaming to postpone the patch because this just wasn't going to end well and be harder to fix than they thought. True answer is you gotta play by ear week to week just about based on whatever insane hotfix or patch comes out this week, and the next, and the next, till maybe they figure this mess out. 

Truth.  I tried to walk away because it's just such a mess at this point.  I don't even completely blame WG.  Though I do question so many of their decisions.  Unfortunately, they don't have many good options really.

But, the core game is really outstanding and when it's good it's really good.   Had a couple fun matches right off the bat (no cvs ofc).   Bracing for my first CV game...............

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10 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Truth.  I tried to walk away because it's just such a mess at this point.  I don't even completely blame WG.  Though I do question so many of their decisions.  Unfortunately, they don't have many good options really.

But, the core game is really outstanding and when it's good it's really good.   Had a couple fun matches right off the bat (no cvs ofc).   Bracing for my first CV game...............

They can be fun despite a CV - that 180k damage game I linked - yeah that was a loss in a game that went about 15 minutes. The impact of CV's, other than god tier players, was always lower than people thought in RTS and it is way lower now. Only player that made more than me - was MVP on the other team, by 157 xp. Which was one of their BB's. Unless your bottom tier with bad AA and run off alone - CV's have more bark then bite right now. Finally got a win in Saipan (third match the charm) and dealt under 50k damage - at one point before the team rallied it looked like I was about to be shut out at 13k damage cause bottom tier and unable to get planes through certain ship AA or groups. 

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