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on the lion if you get the larger gun do you lose some guns

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hay on the lion if you get the 419 guns do you lose the number of main guns because you get larger guns or do you still get 9 min guns??? thanks. 

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30 minutes ago, _1204_ said:

No, it only is like that for the conqueror

Is it a big deal to use bigger guns or is there an advantage to keep smaller guns.

I'm fairly new to conquer.

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5 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Is it a big deal to use bigger guns or is there an advantage to keep smaller guns.

I'm fairly new to conquer.

It might be different if it had Yamatos 460mm guns that can overmatch cruiser armor... however it cant with its 457 mm. for just spewing fire at long range, the extra guns are far superior. Most people includong myself keep the small guns. I dont even think it's a toss up (like on GK)

Edited by _1204_

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On 3/3/2019 at 8:48 PM, dEsTurbed1 said:

Is it a big deal to use bigger guns or is there an advantage to keep smaller guns.

I'm fairly new to conquer.

On paper, shell for shell, Conqueror's 457mm guns are a better choice.

More HE / AP damage.

Significantly high Fire Chance.

High AP Penetration.

Much stronger AP Overmatch benefits than the smaller 419mm AP shells.

Higher Sigma.

Significantly tougher turrets than the 419mm gun turrets.  Turret face is strong, the 419mm gun turrets have thin faces.  You end up in a brawl somehow, your opponent can pick out and take your 419mm turrets out easily.

Etc.

 

But the 419mm guns win out for one reason despite all that:  12 guns > 8.

Let's be frank here.  BBs are pretty RNG-fest oriented ships.  You can have the correct aim for your salvo and RNG says, "F--k you, in particular."  The 457mm guns only send 8 shells total and even with the 2.0 Sigma, they feel off.  On the same token, the 419mm gun set feels more comfortable as sending 12 shells lets you roll the dice 12 times and hope for hits.  Unless RNG says you're lucky on a BB salvo, you'll have a lot of misses per salvo on any BB, even Yamato.  That's why 12 dice rolls > 8.  It's the same reason why Montana's guns are comfortable.  12 shells flying down to someone is no joke.

 

The benefit of 12 shells flying to a target becomes much more pronounced when you are attacking Cruisers and especially Destroyers.  8 shells tends to go awry.

 

Now, there are some great low gun count Battleships in Tier X that make them more dangerous than Conqueror's 457mm guns.

Yamato - 9 guns only, but 460mm advantage and IJN BB dispersion (best BB line dispersion in the game) and highest BB Sigma in the game (2.10 Sigma).

Republique - 8 guns only, but they are 430mm with Overmatch advantage than 406mm-420mm guns.  It's important because of some of the armor plate on certain Cruisers that will bounce 406-420mm on the sides.  Just as importantly, they reload fast.

 

Conqueror 457mm guns don't have such good benefits.  They're not notably accurate and your ROF is mediocre despite having only 8 guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

On paper, shell for shell, Conqueror's 457mm guns are a better choice.

More HE / AP damage.

Significantly high Fire Chance.

High AP Penetration.

Much stronger AP Overmatch benefits than the smaller 419mm AP shells.

Higher Sigma.

Significantly tougher turrets than the 419mm gun turrets.  Turret face is strong, the 419mm gun turrets have thin faces.  You end up in a brawl somehow, your opponent can pick out and take your 419mm turrets out easily.

Etc.

 

But the 419mm guns win out for one reason despite all that:  12 guns > 8.

Let's be frank here.  BBs are pretty RNG-fest oriented ships.  You can have the correct aim for your salvo and RNG says, "F--k you, in particular."  The 457mm guns only send 8 shells total and even with the 2.0 Sigma, they feel off.  On the same token, the 419mm gun set feels more comfortable as sending 12 shells lets you roll the dice 12 times and hope for hits.  Unless RNG says you're lucky on a BB salvo, you'll have a lot of misses per salvo on any BB, even Yamato.  That's why 12 dice rolls > 8.  It's the same reason why Montana's guns are comfortable.  12 shells flying down to someone is no joke.

 

The benefit of 12 shells flying to a target becomes much more pronounced when you are attacking Cruisers and especially Destroyers.  8 shells tends to go awry.

 

Now, there are some great low gun count Battleships in Tier X that make them more dangerous than Conqueror's 457mm guns.

Yamato - 9 guns only, but 460mm advantage and IJN BB dispersion (best BB line dispersion in the game) and highest BB Sigma in the game (2.10 Sigma).

Republique - 8 guns only, but they are 430mm with Overmatch advantage than 406mm-420mm guns.  It's important because of some of the armor plate on certain Cruisers that will bounce 406-420mm on the sides.  Just as importantly, they reload fast.

 

Conqueror 457mm guns don't have such good benefits.  They're not notably accurate and your ROF is mediocre despite having only 8 guns.

Thank you for responding with a detailed report.

I think I'll run both in some coop games to see which ones I like.

I do love my Republique.  The conquer was my last tier 10, so I don't have much experience with her.

And yes 12>8 in most situations,  especially when I have trouble penning with my Yammy.

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21 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Thank you for responding with a detailed report.

I think I'll run both in some coop games to see which ones I like.

I do love my Republique.  The conquer was my last tier 10, so I don't have much experience with her.

And yes 12>8 in most situations,  especially when I have trouble penning with my Yammy.

I really like the balance pass WG did to make Republique's 430mm x8 setup work.  Because if WG had done their previous practice with BB guns, these 430mm guns on her would have sucked without the fast reload.  I get that WG gets this experience with the French BBs, which came out after Conqueror and the RN BB Line.  But they could have gone back and tweaked only her 457mm guns to be more useful.

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Probably half my games in the Conqueror were attempts to try to do well with the 457s.  I just can't have a good game with those guns to save my life.  Slinging HE/AP doesn't matter.  With HE I set more fires with the 419's than the 457's despite lower fire chance.  With AP the minimal damage increase per shell simply isnt worth the loss of 4 guns and the dispersion is the same in both cases.  Its a matter of perspective, but I dont feel I pen anything any better with the 457's and the 419s seem to pen just fine.  I have since officially given up on the 457's and sold the module.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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On 3/14/2019 at 8:41 AM, Taco_De_Moist said:

Probably half my games in the Conqueror were attempts to try to do well with the 457s.  I just can't have a good game with those guns to save my life.  Slinging HE/AP doesn't matter.  With HE I set more fires with the 419's than the 457's despite lower fire chance.  With AP the minimal damage increase per shell simply isnt worth the loss of 4 guns and the dispersion is the same in both cases.  Its a matter of perspective, but I dont feel I pen anything any better with the 457's and the 419s seem to pen just fine.  I have since officially given up on the 457's and sold the module.

I gave the 457s two different, significant time periods to prove themselves.  Both ended up as disappointment.  You don't have IJN / Yamato accuracy with the 457s to make up for USN / RN BB dispersion.  Not even the 2.0 Sigma the 457s get help that.

 

Getting more fires with the 419s is because you throw more shells, and the chances of multi-hit salvos with 12 shells > 8 shells.

 

The 9-gun count Iowa-class BBs are great because they can slot APRM2 to reduce that USN / RN BB dispersion.

 

Side note:  For a while, around when I first got Conqueror, I had her in AA Spec.  AAGM2 was fitted, not ASM1.  And the dispersion was horrifyingly bad.  Normally in the Pre-CV Rework days I had many AA Spec BBs.  Even Gneisenau was that way.  But Conqueror was the only AA Spec BB I tried whose gunnery was so bad that I ditched the AA attempt and went back to Stealth - Survival - Main Battery Build, which isn't a common build for me on BBs :Smile_veryhappy:

 

Anyways, Conqueror's 457mm guns are one tweak away to make them useful.  Make them:

1.  The Republique Route:  Faster shooting 457s than the 419s to make up for the 8 gun count.  Should not be as fast as Republique's 430mm guns, so it should be somewhere in the middle of that and what Conqueror 457s currently have.

Or

2.  The IJN / Yamato Route:  Improved dispersion and Yamato Sigma.  Yamato will still have 460mm advantage that the 457mm will never have, as well as having 9 guns vs 457-Conqueror's 8.  This is encroaching into Yamato's territory, but not stepping on her toes at all.  Especially when Yamato's Legendary Upgrade is taken into account.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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