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Ensign_Cthulhu

Zero-damage oddity

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I can understand the whole zero-damage penetration thing, annoying as it is - the shell can be imagined as destroying the jam cupboard or the toilets or something like that, and doing no meaningful damage to the important parts of a fighting ship. Or the fuze failed and the shell never exploded.

But for the love of God, WG, when I take out the steering, propulsion and a set of torpedo tubes, surely I can expect to see some damage numbers!! Anyone else noticed this hilarity?

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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21 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I can understand the whole zero-damage penetration thing, annoying as it is - the shell can be imagined as destroying the jam cupboard or the toilets or something like that, and doing no meaningful damage to the important parts of a fighting ship. Or the fuze failed and the shell never exploded.

But for the love of God, WG, when I take out the steering, propulsion and a set of torpedo tubes, surely I can expect to see some damage numbers!! Anyone else noticed this hilarity?

All pens do damage, ask the Prince of Wales crew members on the compass platform & radar office. No one in the radar office survived. Exploding in the torpedo belt does damage as well. AP detonating in the water by a ship can & does pop rivets & break welds causing leaks to flooding.  Why WG has chosen to negate this type of damage 100% is frustrating. IMO some damage should be awarded.

Yes, I understand this is a game and balance takes precedents over realism but this is going a bit too far.

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50 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

the shell can be imagined as destroying the toilets or something like that, and doing no meaningful damage to the important parts of a fighting ship.

Lets put you on a ship with no toilets. See whose laughing:Smile_veryhappy:

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Ive always thought there should be a small,  but noticeable chance for AP pens to start fires.  After all....the shell DOES explode inside the ship.  Also, HE shouldn’t necessarily cause all that many fires either....HE in real world is used to throw craploads of shrapnel around to break stuff and kill people.   Yeah...it explodes and could cause a fire as well....but rounds DESIGNED to cause fires are called incendiaries.  Which we don’t have (and to my knowledge weren’t really a naval gun thing). 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

All pens do damage, ask the Prince of Wales crew members on the compass platform & radar office. No one in the radar office survived. Exploding in the torpedo belt does damage as well. AP detonating in the water by a ship can & does pop rivets & break welds causing leaks to flooding.  Why WG has chosen to negate this type of damage 100% is frustrating. IMO some damage should be awarded.

Yes, I understand this is a game and balance takes precedents over realism but this is going a bit too far.

They did think about it though. A few months ago. People hated it and it didn't happen. 

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17 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

They did think about it though. A few months ago. People hated it and it didn't happen. 

Yes, I remember them having all shells do a minimum of 10% (or something like that).

What ended up happening was secondary shells were doing crazy damage as well as some other oddities.

The fix to this problem (which isn't that common really) caused a much bigger problem.

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36 minutes ago, kgh52 said:

All pens do damage, ask the Prince of Wales crew members on the compass platform & radar office. No one in the radar office survived. Exploding in the torpedo belt does damage as well. AP detonating in the water by a ship can & does pop rivets & break welds causing leaks to flooding.  Why WG has chosen to negate this type of damage 100% is frustrating. IMO some damage should be awarded.

Yes, I understand this is a game and balance takes precedents over realism but this is going a bit too far.

Oh, I know; in the real world you are correct. I was imagining ways you can handwave it in the game. That being said, if you are going to give me a zero damage hit, at least give me either a shatter or an overpen.

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19 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

They did think about it though. A few months ago. People hated it and it didn't happen. 

When did players opinions matter? Many hate CV's, yet they're in the game. Many hate radar but it is in the game. Nothing personal but I believe "thinking about it" is as far as it could go with the CV rework and upcoming RN CV & Russian BB lines.

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27 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

They did think about it though. A few months ago. People hated it and it didn't happen. 

Especially since your TDS taking damage now affected your HP badly. Even a BB is nervous about that.

Frankly I don't think anything's gonna be done about the zero damage pens. A special ribbon for those would've been nice, but eh. It's not frequent enough to be a major problem.

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4 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Oh, I know; in the real world you are correct. I was imagining ways you can handwave it in the game. That being said, if you are going to give me a zero damage hit, at least give me either a shatter or an overpen.

There is ways but so many except it as it is I believe it is below the bottom rung of the priority ladder. Yes, some type of no damage hit rather then a pen without damage would be nice.

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Zero damage pens don't enter the ship's hull. They hit an external module like a secondary turret, AA mount, torpedo tube or, say, rudder. Since those are outside of the hull and the hull itself represents the bag-o-hitpoints, doing damage to an external module does not do damage to internal hitpoints, IE the number floating above the target.

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5 hours ago, Lert said:

Zero damage pens don't enter the ship's hull. They hit an external module like a secondary turret, AA mount, torpedo tube or, say, rudder. Since those are outside of the hull and the hull itself represents the bag-o-hitpoints, doing damage to an external module does not do damage to internal hitpoints, IE the number floating above the target.

Yet we do cause damage by hitting the superstructure, which is not part of the hull either. Disagreeing with zero damage pens does not mean we do not understand the mechanics involved.

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9 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

when I take out the steering, propulsion and a set of torpedo tubes, surely I can expect to see some damage numbers!!

Why?  Why does it matter if you see a damage number or not.  You are taking out a module or the shell is hitting the torp bulge and not fully penetrating or some other but similar armour interaction.  It's just a number, I don't understand the annoyance this gives people.

I do agree however that the ribbon given should not be a penetration.  Call it a non-penetration or incapacitation or something else and then the whole "I dont't see a number should become less of an issue". 

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11 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I can understand the whole zero-damage penetration thing, annoying as it is - the shell can be imagined as destroying the jam cupboard or the toilets or something like that, and doing no meaningful damage to the important parts of a fighting ship. Or the fuze failed and the shell never exploded.

But for the love of God, WG, when I take out the steering, propulsion and a set of torpedo tubes, surely I can expect to see some damage numbers!! Anyone else noticed this hilarity?

Torp tubes are no substitute for a well maintained functioning toilet...

also... splash damage... a conq HE shell damage radius is the size of mahan... if it hits the water, a HE shell can still incap half a dds modules. It doesnt count towards the health pool (hull) though.

Edited by Xanshin

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9 hours ago, Lert said:

Zero damage pens don't enter the ship's hull. They hit an external module like a secondary turret, AA mount, torpedo tube or, say, rudder. Since those are outside of the hull and the hull itself represents the bag-o-hitpoints, doing damage to an external module does not do damage to internal hitpoints, IE the number floating above the target.

But in order to disable engines, I definitely have to enter the hull. And with the exception of an actual rudder hit, steering gear disabling should also do so.

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I just use high explosive with the GC now, so many zero damage pens started to make me get very frustrated. 14 inch shell ripping through a ship is going to cause damage and inflict casualties no matter what it hits. These things were jammed full of squishy people. 

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11 hours ago, _1204_ said:

Lets put you on a ship with no toilets. See whose laughing:Smile_veryhappy:

That was the case for millennia. Never underestimate the power of a bucket or sticking your rear over the side.

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19 hours ago, _1204_ said:

Lets put you on a ship with no toilets. See whose laughing:Smile_veryhappy:

Or worse yet, only one toilet survives....the one with the red seat!

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Peripheral and module pens won't go back on the ship HP bar for balance reasons, as others have said.

But a potentially more viable solution might be giving damage credit (to the damage counter and for XP-earining) for those zero-damage pens. Breaking critical systems like rudders and main battery turrets are indirectly leading to the ship getting sunk, after all.

Edit: Not the TDS secondary pens, though. Need to figure out a way to exclude those.

Edited by Edgecase

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18 hours ago, Lert said:

Zero damage pens don't enter the ship's hull. They hit an external module like a secondary turret, AA mount, torpedo tube or, say, rudder. Since those are outside of the hull and the hull itself represents the bag-o-hitpoints, doing damage to an external module does not do damage to internal hitpoints, IE the number floating above the target.

I agree with you, but if you dmg external modules it will indicate on the enemy ship. These sometimes 0 dmg pen are not related with dmg/destructing a external module.

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 I have had zero pens enough lately to take notice. I understand the zero pen....you hit but did no damage... and I understand the zero pen for saturation....you hit an area already torched or demolished.  But last night in my Yorck,  I had a zero pen where I disabled a module....very strange.  Disabling modules is not considered damage?

Only reason I noticed is because it was my first hit of the match at long range firing HE.

Some folks in my clan say this is a bug that WG is addressing in the near future.  Is that correct?

Overall not a big deal...if anything my damage has gone up a bit over the last several weeks.

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22 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I can understand the whole zero-damage penetration thing, annoying as it is - the shell can be imagined as destroying the jam cupboard or the toilets or something like that, and doing no meaningful damage to the important parts of a fighting ship. Or the fuze failed and the shell never exploded.

But for the love of God, WG, when I take out the steering, propulsion and a set of torpedo tubes, surely I can expect to see some damage numbers!! Anyone else noticed this hilarity?

Happened to me last night.  Knocked out propulsion on a DD for 0 damage.  I just assumed the shell got lodged between prop blades.

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38 minutes ago, Poisonous_Lily said:

I agree with you, but if you dmg external modules it will indicate on the enemy ship. These sometimes 0 dmg pen are not related with dmg/destructing a external module.

IIRC the module gets a saving throw to negate the damage, in which case it doesn't take damage but still gets penned. Also, modules have hitpoints and a shell has a certain, hidden, module damage value. If a 1000 hitpoint module is hit by a shell doing 750 module damage, it'll still show a pen but the module will remain functioning, with 250 hp.

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If the issue is rounds registering as penetrations not actually damaging the core HP pool, maybe the "solution" would be to add the HP of all the modules and other "stuff" to the core HP? If the toilet breaks, it counts against the HP pool, and so forth.

It would also mean that the HP pool would be adjusted by captain skills and upgrades, if I understand how those work. Which also means ships with heals would benefit because the percentage works off a larger base? Damage farming would certainly increase, and there should be no more zero-damage pens, hopefully.

Hmm. This could get complicated.

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