physics of warships in motion

[nabari]

well did a search on this aswell and didnt come up with anything, didnt really know if i should start a topic, or ask in q and a either. finally, i figured that id just throw it out there.

 

so to get us started id like to quote from a favorit movie of mine ''a ship this big, doesnt exactly stop on a daim'' and as we have been informed, most maps will have various opstacles, and, from looking at rescent pctures, id say its almost sertain, we will see maps in the fjords off norway.

 

will the physics of ships be realistic? will bigger ships have a decreased level of realism to help players in fjord maps? will turn radius be realistic, or slightly modified? water friction, full speed to a dead stop and so on.

 

anyone have opinions, concerns, or even just a slight interest in this, please... DISCUSS :)

[error_3]

nabari, on 09 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

well did a search on this aswell and didnt come up with anything, didnt really know if i should start a topic, or ask in q and a either. finally, i figured that id just throw it out there.

so to get us started id like to quote from a favorit movie of mine ''a ship this big, doesnt exactly stop on a daim'' and as we have been informed, most maps will have various opstacles, and, from looking at rescent pctures, id say its almost sertain, we will see maps in the fjords off norway.

will the physics of ships be realistic? will bigger ships have a decreased level of realism to help players in fjord maps? will turn radius be realistic, or slightly modified? water friction, full speed to a dead stop and so on.

anyone have opinions, concerns, or even just a slight interest in this, please... DISCUSS :)

they do have physics in world of tanks and world of war planes so i would guess there are physics here to

[nabari]

well i didnt really know if theres enough ''bacon on this subject'' to peak the interest of people, but i do have vaious concerns myself. wot physx are preatty good imo, but i didnt care for the wowp physx. and it seems to me if they are gonna have +15 people per team, sailing around norwegian fjords and the like, they might be planning to make it a lot more arcade than i care for.

[International_Barfighter]

Everything we have seen is pointing to larger maps (60km x 60km) which would lend itself towards more realistic physics.  It would make a fjord map awfully entertaining for the smaller ships.

[triptyx]

I believe I saw it stated in the QA that ships will have "realistic" turn characteristics and will also take various factors into account with regards to stopping.  They won't stop on a dime.  :)

[Wunderwaffen1945]

RAM HIM!RAM HIM!

[NynjaSquirrel]

I'm assuming that great care will need to be taken to avoid grounding one's ship in tight spaces... could make for some interesting manoeuvres.

[triptyx]

Devs stated that you will not have to have a minimum maneuvering speed to turn (this disappoints me somewhat), so assume that each ship has maneuvering thrusters that allow it to pivot in place at a certain rate of turn.

[Capcon]

Anybody from World of Tanks that has not done a power slide is missing out.

 

I do hope that groundings will be permitted and the quick death that comes with them will be rigidly enforced by players.

 

I highly recommend going to Google maps and checking out Narvik Norway and thinking about what a pair it took to have the battleship HMS Warspite sail up that fjord to get after some German destroyers.

[triptyx]

Devs stated that you will be able to run aground, doing damage to your ship.  This should benefit vessels that have shallower drafts in certain areas of the map I'd assume.

[Sampsonite]

Shallow water manuvers are very complicated for large ships. When the water depth gets to be less than about one and a half times the draft, they start to get sluggish. This is due to the fact that the hull itself is preventing water from moving from one side to the other. During low speed passes of the side of a channel the vessel can actually cause a suction on the shallow side and the ship can be sucked sideways into the side of the channel and touch bottom. Also ships at high speed are known for squat. Squat is the water moving under the hull actually speeds up to go around the hull and causes a low pressure area that makes the ship sit deeper in the water. The Queen Elizabeth II grounding off Massachusetts in 1992 was a result of squat of over 10' at 25 kts!

 

As for the crash astern stopping and I quote: "Only the USS Wisconsin has experimented with this type of stop called "Closing the Barn Doors". A normal full "Crash Back" stop keeps the rudders amidships but the propellers are reversed from full flank ahead to full flank reverse. It takes the ship about a mile to come to a stop before going in reverse again. I was riding the Missouri at the time we tested this out and it is amazing how quiet the machinery spaces suddenly get and start up again. The inboard shafts 2 & 3 on an Iowa class are built into large skegs supporting the 5-bladed propellers. The outboard shafts 1 & 4 support the 4-bladed propellers by struts. But the rudders are almost in line with the skegs for props 2 & 3 and those skegs form a virtual tunnel underneath the ship allowing for lots of water to pass through. The Proceedings had an article on this back in the 80's of the Wisconsin testing the Barn Door stop. By turning over the rudders to local control (in the steering gear rooms themselves) they could be operated independantly and turned inboard to each other to close off that tunnel of water. This also including reversing the props as well. The results were shocking and often messy as anything not tied down wound up on the deck or against the forward bulkhead. In one test, they had a crewman throw a piece of wood off the bow as the "Barn Door Stop" was ordered. When she came to a stop, the piece of wood was almost abreast of Turret III. That's stopping a 57,000 ton Battleship in about 600 feet." (as quoted from "Worldsaffairboard") Amazing things those battleships...

[International_Barfighter]

Wow, +1 for well-researched and informed geekery.  That Barn Door Stop sounds terrifying.

[Gohibniu]

Lots of RL examples of how difficult it is to go where you need to be. The USS Washington suffered a direct hit by a 35000 ton projectile (UssIndiana) and managed to survive.

[triptyx]

hehehe

 

Considering the New Orleans lost her entire bow, including the #1 gun mount in a magazine explosion (resulting from a torpedo hit) during World War II and still sailed to Australia, then the United States for refit minus that bow is testament to how tough warships can be.

[brian333]

Kongo did the same as New Orleans.

 

On turning: A ship with more than one functional screw can turn without forward momentum. Simply set one rotating ahead and one rotating astern. I'm not sure that WoWs will have the ability to control your screw speeds this way, but the idea of turning in place is not unreasonable.

 

This could also be used to walk a ship into a dock, or away from one. Our captain allowed tugs to escort us wherever it was required by law, but he absolutely forbid them to 'scratch the paint-job.' (Part of the reason why is that our oversized screws stuck out past the sides of the ship.)

[Quaffer]

nabari, on 09 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

will the physics of ships be realistic? will bigger ships have a decreased level of realism to help players in fjord maps? will turn radius be realistic, or slightly modified? water friction, full speed to a dead stop and so on.

I, for one, am hoping that the physics are as close to real world as possible. Fjord maps or not.  Why would you want to play a destroyer when a nerfed battleship handles the exact same way?  If a battleship or a carrier must slow down to safely maneuver, then let them slow down.  No two classes of ships have ever handled the same and one of the things that will set the talented player apart from the just point and shoot players is that they will make the most of their ships characteristics.  There is a reason those engine telegraphs have all of those speeds on them.  Learn the best situation for each of them.

Even when driving a car, a good driver has situational awareness and adapts to the current local conditions.

[Agent_JackRyan]

nabari, on 09 January 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

so to get us started id like to quote from a favorit movie of mine ''a ship this big, doesnt exactly stop on a daim''

The Hunt for Red October - Sonar operator Jones talking to Seaman beaumont in the sonar room when they went quick quiet/all stop when red october was doing a crazy ivan.  "The catch is, a boat this big doesn't exactly stop on a dime... and if we're too close, we'll drift right into the back of him."

If my name doesn't give it away i have been a lifelong fan of Tom Clancy and the Jack Ryan series LOL.  I love The Hunt for Red October.

[Madwolf05]

Sampsonite, on 09 January 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Shallow water manuvers are very complicated for large ships. When the water depth gets to be less than about one and a half times the draft, they start to get sluggish. This is due to the fact that the hull itself is preventing water from moving from one side to the other. During low speed passes of the side of a channel the vessel can actually cause a suction on the shallow side and the ship can be sucked sideways into the side of the channel and touch bottom. Also ships at high speed are known for squat. Squat is the water moving under the hull actually speeds up to go around the hull and causes a low pressure area that makes the ship sit deeper in the water. The Queen Elizabeth II grounding off Massachusetts in 1992 was a result of squat of over 10' at 25 kts!

As for the crash astern stopping and I quote: "Only the USS Wisconsin has experimented with this type of stop called "Closing the Barn Doors". A normal full "Crash Back" stop keeps the rudders amidships but the propellers are reversed from full flank ahead to full flank reverse. It takes the ship about a mile to come to a stop before going in reverse again. I was riding the Missouri at the time we tested this out and it is amazing how quiet the machinery spaces suddenly get and start up again. The inboard shafts 2 & 3 on an Iowa class are built into large skegs supporting the 5-bladed propellers. The outboard shafts 1 & 4 support the 4-bladed propellers by struts. But the rudders are almost in line with the skegs for props 2 & 3 and those skegs form a virtual tunnel underneath the ship allowing for lots of water to pass through. The Proceedings had an article on this back in the 80's of the Wisconsin testing the Barn Door stop. By turning over the rudders to local control (in the steering gear rooms themselves) they could be operated independantly and turned inboard to each other to close off that tunnel of water. This also including reversing the props as well. The results were shocking and often messy as anything not tied down wound up on the deck or against the forward bulkhead. In one test, they had a crewman throw a piece of wood off the bow as the "Barn Door Stop" was ordered. When she came to a stop, the piece of wood was almost abreast of Turret III. That's stopping a 57,000 ton Battleship in about 600 feet." (as quoted from "Worldsaffairboard") Amazing things those battleships...

Holy crap...  :Smile_honoring:

[triptyx]

Agent_JackRyan, on 17 January 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

The Hunt for Red October - Sonar operator Jones talking to Seaman beaumont in the sonar room when they went quick quiet/all stop when red october was doing a crazy ivan.  "The catch is, a boat this big doesn't exactly stop on a dime... and if we're too close, we'll drift right into the back of him."

If my name doesn't give it away i have been a lifelong fan of Tom Clancy and the Jack Ryan series LOL.  I love The Hunt for Red October.

Favorite of mine as well.

Connery in the movie cracked me up:

Careful Ryan. Schom things don't take well to bulletsh.

[Crag_r]

MadCard05, on 18 January 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

Holy crap...  :Smile_honoring:

As in?  :Smile_trollface:

[International_Barfighter]

triptyx, on 18 January 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Favorite of mine as well.

Connery in the movie cracked me up:

Careful Ryan. Schom things don't take well to bulletsh.

"Yeah, like me."

[KriegsMeister]

My dad is/was an Army transport ship operator and has lately worked in the school house teahing future skippers how to control a variety ships on several different simulators. These simulators were epic, the main area was a full mock up of the Bridge and the brain was a bank of about 50-60 top-of-the-line computers from around 2005, the display system was a 270-300 degree curved screen that allowed you to see almost everything around the ship, and a bunch of other really cool things that would list on about 4 pages but anyways my dad would let me "play" on these fancy machines and he taught me how to do a lot of these maneuvers plus some inclement weather and incoming traffic. My all time favorite test was sailing to Norfolk to dock with severe fog reducing vision to about 10 ft and a broken rudder. I eventually got there after crashing into 4 different piers, one Tico-class cruiser and the USS Enterprise a couple of times. But sadly the physics in this game wont be as realistic but hopefully they are close.

[International_Barfighter]

KriegsMeister, on 18 January 2013 - 06:29 PM, said:

My dad is/was an Army transport ship operator and has lately worked in the school house teahing future skippers how to control a variety ships on several different simulators. These simulators were epic, the main area was a full mock up of the Bridge and the brain was a bank of about 50-60 top-of-the-line computers from around 2005, the display system was a 270-300 degree curved screen that allowed you to see almost everything around the ship, and a bunch of other really cool things that would list on about 4 pages but anyways my dad would let me "play" on these fancy machines and he taught me how to do a lot of these maneuvers plus some inclement weather and incoming traffic. My all time favorite test was sailing to Norfolk to dock with severe fog reducing vision to about 10 ft and a broken rudder. I eventually got there after crashing into 4 different piers, one Tico-class cruiser and the USS Enterprise a couple of times. But sadly the physics in this game wont be as realistic but hopefully they are close.

Oh, in other words you're a Norfolk tug pilot.  

/just kidding, they do that in clear weather