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Gum_wars

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This is more a rant then anything else.  I just spent my morning getting burned down, repeatedly, in my Iowa.  It wasn't fun.  It was quite the opposite of fun.  I've been playing this game for more than 3 years, which I know, isn't tremendous compared to a lot of the other players here.  However, to me, it represents a significant expenditure of my time.  I did the FTP grind from tier 1 to tier 8 in US BBs.  Once I researched tier 8, I went premium and I did that for two reasons; the first was to cut down on the grind.  The second, and I discovered this with my Cleveland, you need to be moderately successful in order to actually break even at tier 8.  I could lose all day at tier 1 through 6 and still make a small profit.  At tier 8 and above, if you don't win, or aren't premium, you lose coin.  That dynamic alone is problematic.

So, today I squared off, one on one, with a Harugamo.  It had launched all of its torpedos and popped smoke.  I evaded the torp attack and then spent the next two minutes getting set on fire.  I called the DD captain out for what has always been a ridiculous dynamic to me and he, to my surprise, left the smoke and engaged me directly.  There were two other ships on the enemy team closing in, but at this point all I could, or wanted, to do was get this DD.  He took me from full health to death with his main armament.  No torpedos and only a little help from his friends so this interaction is representative of basically a DD v. BB, gun to gun.  Reload times were a factor but what decided things was the fire damage.  From what I can gather, historically this sort of exchange never happened.  I know WG can't rigidly adhere to history; the game would be pretty slow if that were the case. But I'm not happy at all with this meta.  I did sink the DD right before I burned up, but I'm having a hard time accepting this.  

When I played FTP, I could and would accept any crap that happened in game; I'm not paying for it so the devs can do what they like.  As a paying customer, I feel differently.  I'm not saying "WG make my ships indestructible because I pay to play."  What I'm saying is that I'm paying to be frustrated.  I'm paying to get upset, and I'm paying so WG can continue to make changes to the game, without input from the people that keep the lights on.  When WG changed the meta with AP v. DDs, I complained and knew this was going to change how DDs engage BBs.  A full broadside from the Iowa, with AP and all nine connect would almost sink a tier 5 DD with full health if all rounds did maximum damage under the AP rework.  That means as a BB, I cannot engage a full health DD in close quarters and hope to survive.  If the don't devstrike with a torpedo attack, I can blast at them all day with my mains and they will hit me dozens of times with theirs between each reload.  Secondaries don't do anything.  I've got all the captains' skills and modules to buff my secondaries.  The only thing I can hope for is to stay outside of the engagement range of a DD, which conversely makes it almost impossible to hit with BB mains, or pray that I get a lucky hit if they get too close.  Because DDs don't need to worry about a full broadside killing them, they often press harder against single BBs, and usually come out on top.  

I don't find this mechanic fair, in keeping with historical accuracy, or even a good component skill wise.  A DD needs to get close, pop smoke, and if any other ship is within 12 to 15 km of the BB and keeps them spotted, the BB captain is going to burn down.  I don't see what skill is required to sit in a cloud of smoke and pummel another player with molotov cocktails.  

In short, I'm done for now.  I'm uninstalling this game and finding something that actually is fun to play.  Right now, WoWS is not fun, to me anyway.

[/rant]

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8 minutes ago, EvilBrokenCaptain said:

git gud

Yeah, I expected that.  It is a rant, after all. 

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Don't try to 1v1 a Harugumo in a BB?

Especially if he's got his smoke?

Especially if he's full health?

???

 

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No DD should be able to win a gun battle with a BB.

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@Gum_wars

Sorry to see you go. It wouldn't be so bad (your leaving) if you were a CV main, but I understand your frustration. I was frustrated with this game's operation long ago and decided to balance my enjoyment of surface ship warfare and WG deployment by ceasing to pay. Even with WG vomiting something it "8" on it's warships player-base, there's still a degree of satisfaction due to my decision long time back: #NotADimeToWG

It keeps the game somewhat fun....

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I had a similar observation last night, and while I realize this is not a simulator it bothers me that a DD can win a gunfight vs a BB.  Of course, I suppose I could always acquire one of the offending DDs and enjoy the other side a bit, but it still feels really wrong that it is even a thing.

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15 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

No DD should be able to win a gun battle with a BB.

Neither should any Cruiser; as the BB is the counter to cruisers.

 

BBs should have the best survival, the best damage and the best rewards - oh look, they do! :Smile_honoring:

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... You do know that the Harugamo is one of only two DDs that can still take more than overpen damage from BB AP, right? I guess not, since you're complaining about it.

Besides that, I have so many other questions.

Why are you trying to fight any DD one on one with a BB with no detection consumables? Why didn't you switch to HE after the first salvo? Why didn't you disengage when when when the other two red ships started closing in? Why were you apparently so far from any DDs or CAs that could help you?

Look, as someone who plays DDs, I can tell you all the teeth gnashing over radar exists for a reason. It might be completely overblown in most cases, but a DD smoke firing early in the match is gonna get lit and have to abandon the smoke in most cases.

Sorry but what you described is basically the ideal situation for a DD. A BB, on it's own, that keeps trying to engage a DD while firing AP is the thing a gunboat captain dreams about.

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17 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

No DD should be able to win a gun battle with a BB.

Definitely not with an equal footing and no consumables as a crutch.  It once again proves how broken both Haragumo and Kitakaze (especially in Ranked) are.  Akizuki was tolerable, as it was offset by other things to keep it balanced.  The T9 and T10 are simply broken.

Low skill, high ceiling pew pew ships that don't add any positive dynamic to this game.  Hope to see them toned down a bit one day.

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13 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Definitely not with an equal footing and no consumables as a crutch.  It once again proves how broken both Haragumo and Kitakaze (especially in Ranked) are.  Akizuki was tolerable, as it was offset by other things to keep it balanced.  The T9 and T10 are simply broken.

Low skill, high ceiling pew pew ships that don't add any positive dynamic to this game.  Hope to see them toned down a bit one day.

I think those two boats should get a reload nerf of half a second at least.

If they won't go that route then then need to lose the 1/4 HE pen damage.

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10 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

... You do know that the Harugamo is one of only two DDs that can still take more than overpen damage from BB AP, right? I guess not, since you're complaining about it.

Besides that, I have so many other questions.

Why are you trying to fight any DD one on one with a BB with no detection consumables? Why didn't you switch to HE after the first salvo? Why didn't you disengage when when when the other two red ships started closing in? Why were you apparently so far from any DDs or CAs that could help you?

Look, as someone who plays DDs, I can tell you all the teeth gnashing over radar exists for a reason. It might be completely overblown in most cases, but a DD smoke firing early in the match is gonna get lit and have to abandon the smoke in most cases.

Sorry but what you described is basically the ideal situation for a DD. A BB, on it's own, that keeps trying to engage a DD while firing AP is the thing a gunboat captain dreams about.

Absolutely, someone trying to fire at something he can't see and instead of moving away has time to write a message to openly challenge the DD.

Lets be honest, the DD would have only come out if he thought he had a chance which means he had already melted the BB substantially (over 2 mins). The BB also admits that 2 other ships were also there in support of the DD, but in this story the only ship that killed him was the DD - Guess the others were there for the BBQ.

A DD that does an average of 60,000 damage, killed a BB with 68,000 and at least one  heal that repairs fire damage. The BB player also states this wasn't the only occasion that he was burnt down that morning, so has learnt nothing.

 

This is like that shameful post where someone rushed a BB in a DD, with 2 other ships in support, the enemy ship was down to 13,000 and when he torped the BB he tried to claim it was because of the AP change (even when he stated the BB was not even paying attention to him).

Seriously, people need to look at their own actions before complaining, as it seems they are just showcasing their own poor play.

9 minutes ago, Prothall said:

I think those two boats should get a reload nerf of half a second at least.

If they won't go that route then then need to lose the 1/4 HE pen damage.

I can agree, in regards to balance compared to the type of damage the ship can do in general compared to other DDs. I do not agree in the case of this thread where the DD player was taking advantage of someone who believed he had a right to win even when playing poorly. No ship should win if they are played badly - if that is the type of game the OP wants then sorry, I can't agree.

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7 minutes ago, Baskerville77 said:

... You do know that the Harugamo is one of only two DDs that can still take more than overpen damage from BB AP, right? I guess not, since you're complaining about it.

Besides that, I have so many other questions.

Why are you trying to fight any DD one on one with a BB with no detection consumables? Why didn't you switch to HE after the first salvo? Why didn't you disengage when when when the other two red ships started closing in? Why were you apparently so far from any DDs or CAs that could help you?

Look, as someone who plays DDs, I can tell you all the teeth gnashing over radar exists for a reason. It might be completely overblown in most cases, but a DD smoke firing early in the match is gonna get lit and have to abandon the smoke in most cases.

Sorry but what you described is basically the ideal situation for a DD. A BB, on it's own, that keeps trying to engage a DD while firing AP is the thing a gunboat captain dreams about.

I was in a cluster of three ships, two BBs and a cruiser. On the other side they had one of each, a BB, DD, and CA.  I don't recall what the CA was but the BB was a Montana. The engagement started off good and I was trying to support our CA with direct fire on their Montana, drawing attention to myself. The cruiser either made a mistake or got caught flat-footed and ate a pack of torpedoes from the Harugumo.  Almost simultaneously, the Montana devstruck the other BB, leaving me in a three on one encounter with the DD rounding the island that blocked line of sight for the enemy BB and CA. The DD came around and I open with my front turret and score 3 hits for mediocre damage. The DD drops torps and pops smoke. I figured he'd try the torpedo attack and had already started backing up once my teammates got sunk. The torps miss, I'm now spotted by their CA, and here comes the rain. The DD pounded me for close to a minute drains half my health, mostly from fire damage, I have three fires blazing. I call the DD out for being a coward. He accepts the challenge and calls me out for backing up. At this point my game is done. The CA and BB are in a position to fire on me so I go full throttle towards the DD, all while he continued to rain fire on me. I use a repair and heal, while waiting for a shot to line up. I get a shot and fire again with the front turrets. A split second after firing a burn to death with 5 out of the six rounds connecting sinking the DD. 

My secondaries did nothing, like two or three hits. I've built this ship with close quarters in mind and have had devastating success in other battles. 

I've had less success using HE against a DD than AP. I don't see any significant increase in damage, honestly. I've connected with the same number of rounds using both and it doesn't matter. 

You've confirmed my suspicions regarding the AP nerf; one on one with a BB is your ideal engagement when historically, the secondary battery would rip a DD to shreds. Why should a DD be concerned when the have a 30 second window to do whatever between salvos and the most a BB can do is a few thousand per whack, if they can hit the squirrly bastard. 

No, this is a deal breaker. I can't pay someone for the pleasure of being this frustrated. It'd be one thing if there was skill involved but the smoke flamethrower tactic is just ridiculous. CVs and DD have play mechanics that push balance out of kilter and make it very frustrating for other ship types. A long devshot with BB takes skill, a flamethrower hidden in smoke is basically get in range, pop smoke, and rack up damage. 

No thank you WG. 

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1 hour ago, Gum_wars said:

So, today I squared off, one on one, with a Harugamo.  It had launched all of its torpedos and popped smoke.  I evaded the torp attack and then spent the next two minutes getting set on fire.  I called the DD captain out for what has always been a ridiculous dynamic to me and he, to my surprise, left the smoke and engaged me directly.

WG needs to post a warning: "Don't taunt the DDs."

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12 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

Absolutely, someone trying to fire at something he can't see and instead of moving away has time to write a message to openly challenge the DD.

Lets be honest, the DD would have only come out if he thought he had a chance which means he had already melted the BB substantially (over 2 mins). The BB also admits that 2 other ships were also there in support of the DD, but in this story the only ship that killed him was the DD - Guess the others were there for the BBQ.

A DD that does an average of 60,000 damage, killed a BB with 68,000 and at least one  heal that repairs fire damage. The BB player also states this wasn't the only occasion that he was burnt down that morning, so has learnt nothing.

 

This is like that shameful post where someone rushed a BB in a DD, with 2 other ships in support, the enemy ship was down to 13,000 and when he torped the BB he tried to claim it was because of the AP change (even when he stated the BB was not even paying attention to him).

Seriously, people need to look at their own actions before complaining, as it seems they are just showcasing their own poor play.

I can agree, in regards to balance compared to the type of damage the ship can do in general compared to other DDs. I do not agree in the case of this thread where the DD player was taking advantage of someone who believed he had a right to win even when playing poorly. No ship should win if they are played badly - if that is the type of game the OP wants then sorry, I can't agree.

The problem is that I wasn't set up for a retreat. Had I been, I wouldn't be here. Yes, in two other games I found myself in similar situations where I was pushing a flank with support and watched as the wonder of random MM giving me potatoes, and ending up in wildly lopsided engagements. 

In all three matches I was extended, with support, and managed to stay in the game longer than the players around me. I'm not an expert but I am not a horrible player either. I consider myself middle of the road. 

The other ships appear to have been firing on other targets, I can only assume they figured the DD had me handled. 

I don't think it's an incorrect statement to say that even moving a BB on the battlefield requires planning. Planning that if something goes sideways you may not have much to work with. 

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14 minutes ago, Gum_wars said:

The problem is that I wasn't set up for a retreat. Had I been, I wouldn't be here. Yes, in two other games I found myself in similar situations where I was pushing a flank with support and watched as the wonder of random MM giving me potatoes, and ending up in wildly lopsided engagements. 

In all three matches I was extended, with support, and managed to stay in the game longer than the players around me. I'm not an expert but I am not a horrible player either. I consider myself middle of the road. 

The other ships appear to have been firing on other targets, I can only assume they figured the DD had me handled. 

I don't think it's an incorrect statement to say that even moving a BB on the battlefield requires planning. Planning that if something goes sideways you may not have much to work with. 

You weren't set up for a retreat? :Smile_amazed: So you made a choice and committed and got caught out! BUT this was someone else's fault! (The DDs!)

That morning you decided to extend 3 times in different matches and got caught out! BUT this was also someone else's fault (your potato team). I am assuming that once your potato team were killed and you were on your own, you blamed the enemy for killing you? Because 'hey, over extending and committing should mean an automatic win!'

 

Then you say playing the game in a BB takes planning as if it is a revelation! Did you plan? The way you talk it sounds as if you didn't. So lets recap:

You died several times that morning but it was always someone else's fault. It didn't matter that you over committed, it didn't matter that you didn't plan, IT DIDN'T MATTER THAT YOU SAT WRITING MESSAGES TO A DD WHILST HE WAS IN HIS SMOKE BURNING YOU DOWN!

At what point does this become your fault! :Smile_facepalm:

 

I have never said this before, but honestly, goodbye! IMO you give the many good BB players out there a bad reputation.

Edited by _WaveRider_
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28 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I can agree, in regards to balance compared to the type of damage the ship can do in general compared to other DDs. I do not agree in the case of this thread where the DD player was taking advantage of someone who believed he had a right to win even when playing poorly. No ship should win if they are played badly - if that is the type of game the OP wants then sorry, I can't agree.

And I can agree with that. :cap_book:

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43 minutes ago, Prothall said:

If they won't go that route then then need to lose the 1/4 HE pen damage.

This is all they need, because they shouldn't have been given 1/4 HE pen in the first place. Not with IFHE still in the game as a skill.

If they had been given 1/5th HE pen, then even with IFHE the 100mm guns wouldn't break the all important 27mm and 32mm thresholds.

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To be honest with you, the problem here is not the game.  The problem is the thinking behind this kind of statement:

2 hours ago, Gum_wars said:

I don't find this mechanic fair, in keeping with historical accuracy, or even a good component skill wise.  A DD needs to get close, pop smoke, and if any other ship is within 12 to 15 km of the BB and keeps them spotted, the BB captain is going to burn down.  I don't see what skill is required to sit in a cloud of smoke and pummel another player with molotov cocktails.


Whether you realize it or not, you think that a BB is supposed to be the biggest, baddest kid on the block and that only the big kid from the next block is supposed to be able to challenge you.   Sure, swarms of lessor ships might be able to take you, but really, only a another BB should be able to take you one-on-one.  Certainly, that skinny kid down the street with glasses shouldn't be much of a threat.

The problem with that is that that skinny kid is supposed to be able to take you.  BBs are the hard counter to CA/CLs.  CA/CLs are supposed to be at a disadvantage taking on a BB one-on-one.  CA/CLs are the hard counter to DDs.  DDs are supposed to be at a disadvantage against a CA/CL one-on-one.  And whether you like it or not, DDs are supposed to be the hard counter to BBs, and BBs are supposed to be at a disadvantage fighting them one-on-one.   In other words, what you are complaining about is that the ship that is supposed to put you at a disadvantage dared to use the very tools that are supposed to counter your heavy armor, high health, and big guns with high alpha.  The irony is that, despite the fact that the DD is supposed to be able to take you one-on-one, you are complaining that he did so even though you ended up taking him with you.

You have high health and heavy armor to mitigate damage.  The HE and fires are supposed to give ships whose AP is largely negated by your armor a chance to still do damage to you, and even that is balanced by the fact that Damage Control Party can instantly put out up to four simultaneous fires.  DCP will also prevent additional fires while it is active, and the fire damage it doesn't stop instantly is 100% repairable with Repair Party.  By contrast, there is not one single consumable that can instantly or otherwise negate the 100% shell damage caused by a citadel hit from guns that ignore your armor, and Repair Party can undo very little of that damage.  Funny how people raising your issues never seem to see that as a problem when they take on cruisers in a BB, isn't it?

While there may be some behavioral changes on your part (note, I did not say "git gud") to make better use of those aforementioned consumables, the problem here is not the mechanic.  The problem here is your underlying assumption that a DD shouldn't be able to take you on and that the very tools that are supposed to counter your strengths shouldn't be able to be used against you.

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Let me clear something up. I had three very bad matches today, with one exemplifying a mechanic that, in my opinion, is not correctly implemented. 

I am not a great player and I have never claimed that to be. I make mistakes, and often too, but I fail to understand how supporting your team in either attempting to cap or defend a flank makes me a poor player, or in one person's opinion a bad mark on all BB players (really??). 

In the match with the DD, our push fell apart quickly, far faster than I anticipated. Did I make a mistake in extending with what I believed was adequate firepower to hold an equal number of ships away? Yes. As a matter of fact I did. I could have played further back or started turning away the moment we started taking fire. I probably should have positioned myself to have more options but I believed we would win the day, so I didn't. In the scenario I ended up in a situation that I'm not often in; the dreaded head to head with the counter to a BB. During that exchange I got yet another dose of the smoke-spotting meta that I have serious issues with. The DD does not have direct line of sight while in smoke. They are dependent on teammates to spot for them yet they see me as they would if there was no obstruction. That mechanic should be worked on. 

To all, I absolutely accept responsibility for mistakes I make in game (and in life) but after a bad run today, stacked on top of the chaos of the last two weeks, has given me pause regarding what this game is about, what it means to me, and if the satisfaction I receive playing it is at least equal to the time and money I allocate to it. Right now, given that there are alternatives to this game and how utterly toxic some members of this community are, I think it is overdue to take a break for a while. 

And further, in response to the last reply, no I don't think BBs should be untouchable. They have weaknesses and should have them in order for balance play. I've argued this with the CV players that felt the first hot fix was too much; the game isn't fun when only one ship type is fun to play. So, for the record, no I don't want BBs to be impervious. I do think that the spotting mechanic needs improvement. 

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Lets see here

  • BB elitist *check
  • Pocket warrior elitist *check
  • distorted thinking that money spent should give you psychological benefits *check
  • Distorted thinking about what is fair in game *check
  • distorted thinking about what the game is compared to what is not *check ( the game is a arcade based in SOME historical elements. Its not a SIM game).
  • He'll be back. They always return back to the motherland

In summery if I am a BB main in a BB and I see a DD. HE will be loaded and at close range it takes 2 salvos max to sink a DD. Using  AP against DDs, was never advised when HE is sill better.

IF a DD sinks a BB especially at high tiers... Hats off to the DD driver.. BB OP get gud.

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19 hours ago, Prothall said:

I think those two boats should get a reload nerf of half a second at least.

If they won't go that route then then need to lose the 1/4 HE pen damage.

There are several ways they can be toned down, such as:

  • remove 1/4 HE pen ability, or:
  • increase surface detection on Kitakaze, or:
  • allow Kitakaze to eat full BB AP penetrations, or:
  • increase smoke firing penalty, or:
  • like Yugumo, put Smoke Generator consumable and TRB into the same upgrade slot, forcing a choice between one or the other

One or two of these ideas would serve nicely to level Kitakaze and Haragumo out a bit.

Edited by Ace_04
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11 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

There are several ways they can be toned down, such as:

  • remove 1/4 HE pen ability, or:
  • increase surface detection on Kitakaze, or:
  • allow Kitakaze to eat full BB AP penetrations, or:
  • increase smoke firing penalty, or:
  • like Yugumo, put Smoke Generator consumable and TRB into the same upgrade slot, forcing a choice between one or the other

One or two of these ideas would serve nicely to level Kitakaze and Haragumo out a bit.

All good ideas. I am a DD player but those dakka dakka boats are just too over the top.

Something needs to be done to them.

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