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LunchCutter

Can someone explain the science of Over Pens?

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I just do not understand how the RNG bot works it out? I'm having a frustrating game in my Giulio Cesare with the dispersion going everywhere except where I'm aiming when a oblivious New York wanders around a island at about 10k, I give him all my front barrels, straight into his side with multiple hits for 3k damage.. every shells overpens, low shots, straight into his fat sides... ?? Then pouring salt on the wound a Omaha trys to sneak up behind at about 7k, I give him the rear guns, all shots fly fairly accurately and him straight on directly, 2 over pens. It does little damage but at least it scared him off. Now how can it over pen? It hit him straight on, that shell has gone through 170m of steel, engines, power rooms, the crews poker room and the rear end for 1k damage. 

 I know AP is the recommended shell of BB's but man, it can be so frustrating to use and half the time it baffles me.

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If a round is too powerful, it can punch through both ends. If you hit the bow or the middle upper belt you may have swiss cheesed through the New York easily. Hitting the magazines or the water line should be a citadel though.

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Ever since the carrier rework was launched, I have noticed an astonishing number of overpens while playing the game. Far more than I can ever remember. As far as I know, nothing has changed. It is very weird. Still play the same ships, still play the same mode (PvE), and still do what I always have done. Did I miss something in the patch notes?

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In simple terms for both the real world and the game it is when a shell does not decelerate enough for the explosive payload to be set off.

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The game simplifies things a bit - but the answer is still physics. Armour penetration changes based on range not simply because of angle, but velocity. Shells require a certain resistance to arm and then a delay before they detonate. It's why DD's used to take damage bow on vs broadside - even if the DD had enough side to arm the shell, the delay in fusing, meant to allow it to arm deeper in the ship, aka citadel, causes the shell to pass through, and detonate on the other side, if at all. Where as hitting the bow it armed after x resistance, and was still in the ship when it went off for a full pen. Bows, stern, superstructure, all have very little protection and resistance - and are what are usually overpenned. Most BB's have 0.033 arming time after they hit the threshold, so while I don't know the threshold, I can tell you that the shell would travel a further 27.39 m before it arms. At least at around point blank. Omaha is only 16 m wide. At it's widest NY is 29m, but again, this is down to where you hit, when it arms, etc.

 

Unless I missed them changing things. But yeah, that's why sometimes the safest place from a BB is in it's face, that and turret rotation. Closer range can mean the round has too much kinetic energy and just goes straight through. 

Edited by WanderingGhost
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38 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

I just do not understand how the RNG bot works it out? I'm having a frustrating game in my Giulio Cesare with the dispersion going everywhere except where I'm aiming when a oblivious New York wanders around a island at about 10k, I give him all my front barrels, straight into his side with multiple hits for 3k damage.. every shells overpens, low shots, straight into his fat sides... ?? Then pouring salt on the wound a Omaha trys to sneak up behind at about 7k, I give him the rear guns, all shots fly fairly accurately and him straight on directly, 2 over pens. It does little damage but at least it scared him off. Now how can it over pen? It hit him straight on, that shell has gone through 170m of steel, engines, power rooms, the crews poker room and the rear end for 1k damage. 

 I know AP is the recommended shell of BB's but man, it can be so frustrating to use and half the time it baffles me.

Since the change to BB's AP damage to DD's I've noticed a huge increase in overpens. According to the videos I've seen explaining the mechanics of how AP  and overpens works I'm getting overpens when I should have ricochets, non-pens, pens or citadels, anything but overpens. Yes a BB should get overpens when hitting a cruiser two tiers lower at close range. At the same time a BB shouldn't be getting overpens when hitting the heaviest armored part of BB two tier higher at long range. It is not all bad. I did not lead enough and citadel a ship with a single round hitting the fantail, shot too high & hit the funnel another time the  mast both were citadels as well. But those miraculous shots are few & far between. 

I play a lot of ops. Due to the nature of ops vs randoms it is easier to spot oddities & changes in ops during the game IMO.

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The science part is an AP shell is fused in expectation of armor resistance.  It if hits something with enough armor, the fuse is triggered so the shell explodes in the innards of the ship.  If the armor is too weak, the shell does not fuse when it hits one side, travels through the ship and exits the other side without exploding.  Hence, the term over pen.

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1 hour ago, LunchCutter said:

Now how can it over pen?

There are two type of over-pen, 1) the armor fails to trip the fuse so the shell never explodes, 2) fused (or not), the shell passes through important compartments -- or usually the whole ship -- before exploding (or not).

Further, what you see can be deceiving.  A node-on shell can be deflected out the side of the ship by armor it would normally penetrate.  The interior armor layout is not visible in-game so you can't see what actually happened.

Expect BB AP, especially high-velocity shells like those of GC, to over-pen everything lightly armored.

 

 

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7 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

I just do not understand how the RNG bot works it out? I'm having a frustrating game in my Giulio Cesare with the dispersion going everywhere except where I'm aiming when a oblivious New York wanders around a island at about 10k, I give him all my front barrels, straight into his side with multiple hits for 3k damage.. every shells overpens, low shots, straight into his fat sides... ?? Then pouring salt on the wound a Omaha trys to sneak up behind at about 7k, I give him the rear guns, all shots fly fairly accurately and him straight on directly, 2 over pens. It does little damage but at least it scared him off. Now how can it over pen? It hit him straight on, that shell has gone through 170m of steel, engines, power rooms, the crews poker room and the rear end for 1k damage. 

 I know AP is the recommended shell of BB's but man, it can be so frustrating to use and half the time it baffles me.

Problem is WG is more focused on making a stupid arcade type damage mechanics rather than put some actual IRL-related battle damage stuff. 

As you say, a shell going through the ship, even if it punches out the other side, will do damage. That being said, if the shell does not explode inside the ship that damage is greatly reduced (sometimes to almost nothing...some battleships has practically zero armor in some places because any damage taken there was irrelevant). 

HOWEVER... citadels are the main problem. A citadel is the engine rooms/boilers. Even if a shell goes out the other end, the damage such a shell would cause would be catastrophic IRL.... for a punctured boiler (a high pressure system) would explode with hundreds of times more power than a shell's explosion....and engine machinery torn to pieces by a passing shell would send shrapnel the size of a sofa into other engine parts in the same compartment thus rendering that machinery useless and impossible to repair permanently. 

 

In the game, an overpen to the citadel area does tiny damage and becomes irrelevant. This is something that is extremely noticeable when a BB fires on a cruiser at very long range and the shell plunged down onto the cruiser's superstructure. In game, it reads 'overpen' ... despite the fact the shell in such a trajectory would go through the entire superstructure, past the top deck armor and directly into the citadel and then punch a hole through the keel of the ship...aka going through the boilers. Such a hit SHOULD have resulted in a citadel hit for damage... but for some inane reason, it is read as an overpen of the superstructure only. 

Now you know why HE is the best choice for all ships, BBs included, to fire. It does good damage no matter the range or angle. AP will do measly damage guaranteed 90% of the time and 10% of the time, when RNG wills it, you may get a citadel hit.... but math has shown you would be doing far more than that one citadel hit+dozens of AP overpens if you had been firing HE from the first shot you fired. 

Yamato is an excellent example of how idiotic WG is... its AP shell essentially penetrates any armor at almost any angle (except soviet bias ship armor where even cruisers will bow tank a Yamato at any range)... all you get are overpens even on rounds that would literally be traveling through the length (bow to aft) of the ship hitting every citadel compartment. Yet you switch to HE and you don't even have to bother aiming well.. just hit the target anywhere as long as most of your shells lands and voila... guaranteed 12k+ damage per hit plus fires. AP meanwhile, plinks/overpens for 3k per salvo. /shrug 

 

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Some ships you really need to know the armor layout to land a devastating hit.  I know it seems like work to have to learn the designs of the specific ships when you are just trying to play the game, but thems the breaks.  Knowing your enemy is a big part of this game.  I've already caught a number of players that didn't get the memo on the Kii's torp range upgrade...2 unsuspecting DDs in one match no less the other day.  I could practically hear the captains yelling "What the hell is this garbage!" 

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23 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

Yamato is an excellent example of how idiotic WG is... its AP shell essentially penetrates any armor at almost any angle (except soviet bias ship armor where even cruisers will bow tank a Yamato at any range)... all you get are overpens even on rounds that would literally be traveling through the length (bow to aft) of the ship hitting every citadel compartment. Yet you switch to HE and you don't even have to bother aiming well.. just hit the target anywhere as long as most of your shells lands and voila... guaranteed 12k+ damage per hit plus fires. AP meanwhile, plinks/overpens for 3k per salvo. /shrug  

Except when the Yamato is on the other team.  Then you make one mistake in maneuvering and you say bye bye to 75% health.  I did a dumb in my zao yesterday, early game, one Yamato volley...I "was" at 100% health, I had 2000 after he hit me.  I still salvaged a 80k dmg and a kill game out of it, but that hurt.

Edited by Taco_De_Moist

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7 hours ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Some ships you really need to know the armor layout to land a devastating hit.  I know it seems like work to have to learn the designs of the specific ships when you are just trying to play the game, but thems the breaks.  Knowing your enemy is a big part of this game.  I've already caught a number of players that didn't get the memo on the Kii's torp range upgrade...2 unsuspecting DDs in one match no less the other day.  I could practically hear the captains yelling "What the hell is this garbage!" 

Problem I find is you can't really aim the guns, especially on BBs, you aim at the target ship, press fire and watch the sometimes comical dispersion of your shells fly off in a vague direction of the target. I laughed at how I fired my North Carolinas full broadside at a distracted side on Yamato at 11k and nothing hit. Just splashed all around the target. 

 

 I still don't understand the shell arming system though. That cruiser I hit directly front on still had some moderate armour on the bow, the AP shell punched through it, went through the forward turrets, powder area, firewalls, citadel/boilers, engines, rear turrets, and about 30 compartments, 160m of steel and iron then flys out the end armour belt wall without arming... 

Edited by LunchCutter

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14 hours ago, Taco_De_Moist said:

Except when the Yamato is on the other team.  Then you make one mistake in maneuvering and you say bye bye to 75% health.  I did a dumb in my zao yesterday, early game, one Yamato volley...I "was" at 100% health, I had 2000 after he hit me.  I still salvaged a 80k dmg and a kill game out of it, but that hurt.

that's 100% RNG based though. That much damage comes from more than one citadel hit and that means RNG just decided it didn't like you. HE oth, will do its damage consistently and without fail.

I will use Yamato again as a great example. It can hit for 40,000 or so damage vs another BB if it hits with 6 or more penetrations (usually by aiming at the upper armor belt near the deckline) with AP... but RNG is what decides where the shells hit so even in that non-citadel hit situation, it is RNG that determines how many of your shells hit a location that will pen and how many hit a location that will overpen/bounce. A significant percentage of salvos fired aimed to try and get this kind of damage in upper side armor will result in overpens and in misses. 

HE has very little RNG interference with your damage output. You aim at superstructure & when at long range, the upper deck armor...and if it hits its practically guaranteed to deliver the HE damage plus fire chance. You can consistently pull 12k to 18k damage per salvo with HE just by firing on the high hit % chance (RNG) superstructure. 

So, if I'm in Yamato and the target BB is 18km away... UNLESS it is perfectly broadside to me, i'm far better off firing HE at it than AP. In four salvos of AP I will likely do a quarter of the damage that four salvos with HE would have done... all because of the super high rate of overpens and non-citadel damage hits. This is all RNG and the stupidity of AP doing inconsequential damage unless it hits a citadel.... and the ungodly idiocy of HE being so effective at any range and angle. 

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