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LittleWhiteMouse

Royal Navy AA (8.0 vs 8.0.1) and Why there's a Hotfix coming again

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If you've been watching the portal, there's information regarding another hotfix for AA coming in the near future.  I wanted to illustrate why.  Actually, I wanted to show you what I had discovered myself but Sub_Octavian and the dev team decided to fix the issue before I could look all smart and announce I had found it all by my onesies.  The issue primairly is that there's a huge jump up in AA damage at about tier 8.  Patch 0.8.0.1 was supposed to reduce flak damage (which it did) and increase sustained DPS (which it did).  However, all values weren't increased equally.  In particular, flak damage at tier 8 wasn't reduced anywhere near what it was at lower tiers.  Let's look at the Royal Navy Battleships as an example:

 

AA Changes For Large / Medium / Small AA and Large / Medium Flak Explosions between 0.8.0 and 0.8.0.1

Ship Name (tier) DPS .8.0
(L/M/S)
DPS 8.0.1
(L/M/S)
% Increase
(L/M/S)
Flak 8.0
(L/M)
Flak 8.0.1
(L/M)
% of Original
(L/M)
Bellerophon (3) 0/40/0 0/51/0 0/28%/0 0/910 0/210 23%
Dreadnought (3) NA NA NA NA NA NA
Orion (4) 26/28/26 46/43/33 77%/54%/27% 1400/840 350/210 25%/25%
Iron Duke (5) 28/124/28 49/190/33 75%/53%/18% 1400/1050 350/280 25%/27%
Queen Elizabeth (6) 71/113/263 129/167/321 82%/48%/22% 1960/1470 350/280 18%/19%
Warspite (6) 29/113/164 52/167/200 79%/48%/22% 1890/1470 350/280 19%/19%
King George V (7) 58/203/274 104/313/321 79%/54%/17% 2170/1400 420/280 19%/20%
Hood (7) 59/55/89/30 107/99/130/38 81%/80%/46%/27% 2170/2170/1470 420/420/280 19%/19%/19%
Nelson (7) 31/172/473 58/259/609 87%/51%/29% 1960/1470 350/280 18%/19%
Duke of York (7) 58/370/664 104/585/609 79%/58%/(-8%!) 2170/1400 420/280 19%/20%
Monarch (8) 60/320/475 112/493/672 87%/54%/41% 2170/1400 1610/1050 74%/75%
Vanguard (8) 63/425/0 117/640/0 86%/51%/0 2170/1330 1610/980 74%/74%
Lion (9) 62/556/0 112/883/0 81%/59%/0 2170/1400 1610/1050 74%/75%
Conqueror (10) 66/530/0 125/862/0 89%/63%/0 2170/1330 1610/980 74%/74%

Yes, Hood has two long AA auras.  A couple of other ships have them too.  Also, poor Duke of York -- she's the only ship I've found (so far) that got her DPS nerfed in one aura.  I think it's a C&P error from Nelson.  This trend for preserving AA explosion damage carries across all nations and all ship types.  This is why AA power at higher tiers feels so unmanageable for tier 8+ CVs at the moment. 

You'll note the inconsistency of it -- where Duke of York and King George V  (both tier 7) share the same long and medium flak damage as Monarch (tier 8) in 0.8.0 but they have vastly different flak output in 0.8.0.1.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Makes sense...  In a match last night with Ranger and literally squads getting powder puffed by a Bismark.  Never managed to get off an attack, finally just gave up and left him alone for the timer to  run out on a win.      

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Looking at values pulled from the Public Test Server -- the explosion disparity is staying the same.  What we're seeing is a drop in DPS values for medium and short AA for higher tiered ships.  I'll have to go over all of the stats (again) and make a new table.  It's doubtful the PTS represents the upcoming fix, though.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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Yeah, this is what I've been experiencing as well.

Playing Ryuujo or Ranger in Aegis, the AA is manageable, even from the Myokou's. You don't want to hang around too long, but it's not instant death if you do stick around for a bit. In fact, the damage done to squads almost feels right, as it feels just a tad bit on the high side(I've had lots of planes go yellow/red when just trying to exit the outer most AA aura solely from DPS, not hitting flak clouds).

However, playing Shoukaku in randoms, it's near impossible to strike even a lone ship unless it's a DD with weak AA. Planes were taking too much damage on the way in on the first strike, and sometimes couldn't even get out, manually, to assess going for a second strike or just RTB'ing to the CV and launching a different group.

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Not sure what to say except took my GC out in two battles last night on some testing... focused by a Ryujo.. .not AA specd.... First battle with a bit of support from a Normandie and a CA, I was hit 6x by torps (not all at once, 3x 2 hits each), eventually sunk (was sitting almost still, ...planes shot down ZERO and the Ruyjo attacked on my STRONG side AA, every time (made a note of that).... so clearly something is amiss.   Second battle not as focused, but took two torp hits and shot down 1 plane.  Back in the old days...umm week ago or so... my GC actually had pretty decent AA...could shoot down a couple of planes AND avoid the torps most of the time.  NOW not shooting down planes and avoiding the torps is very hard.  Even if the pattern is dispersed your still eating 1 torp it seems.... Not saying any ship should be invulnerable (unless we delete CVs, a simple and elegant solution to all of this), but this seems off.

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Hmm. It's almost like there could have been another solution to messing with something on live. A sort of... server... where testing... occurs.

A 'trial network?' A 'dry-run mainframe?' Oh well, I am sure someone could come up with a better name...

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2 minutes ago, Battleship_AndreaDoria said:

Hmm. It's almost like there could have been another solution to messing with something on live. A sort of... server... where testing... occurs.

A 'trial network?' A 'dry-run mainframe?' Oh well, I am sure someone could come up with a better name...

Putting a hotfix on a test-server would only delay its implementation.  We'd still be suffering from 500k+ Hakuryu games while awaiting deployment.

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The problem is airplanes and captain skills scale a lot better at tier ten.  If they reduce flak damage by 80% like they did in other tiers, CV planes will become unkillable again.  Hopefully they don't just keep the pendulum swinging.

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2 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Putting a hotfix on a test-server would only delay its implementation.  We'd still be suffering from 500k+ Hakuryu games while awaiting deployment.

I meant in a broader sense. You're right - the horse left the stable quite a while ago (word on the street is that he's opened a lucrative laundromat chain in a Vegas suburb, with unsanctioned after-hours gambling in the back room. But he fondly remembers those days on the farm when responsible people managed to keep the gate shut).

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2 minutes ago, FlakKnight said:

The problem is airplanes and captain skills scale a lot better at tier ten.  If they reduce flak damage by 80% like they did in other tiers, CV planes will become unkillable again.  Hopefully they don't just keep the pendulum swinging.

equally AA should not be overkill as it is now maybe ichase had the right idea when it comes to fixing the current broken system (one that requires practice and skill)

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Thanks for researching this. it does confirm 100% in game impressions (bullet holes and wings torn to shreds by flak bursts). It also confirms my impression that the hotfix 0.8.0.1 was exceedingly clumsy, hitting the most played, and commercially valuable tiers of gameplay; especially and unfairly hard (t6-8 CVs). I am equally certain, there is more to be done, to correct the damage done by the hotfix. Notwithstanding, we are undergoing a period of Live testing, it is in nobody's interest that the dev department issue as ill thought out, as drastic, and as flawed, patches, as this last one.

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I can't believe no one at WG took even a cursory look at AA numbers before they released the hot-fix patch...

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55 minutes ago, mofton said:

I can't believe no one at WG took even a cursory look at AA numbers before they released the hot-fix patch...

Yes.

This remains the problem.

It is very concerning that all it took to recognize the problem was creating a table...but WG didnt even go that far with their QA of the product.

Why are we working on this AND paying for the game? This isn't a small indy game developer with no resources...we are talking about a near billion dollar game company...

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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    Numbers be damned after about 3 games of getting deplaned in Midway I was able to work out how to make attacks and not lose all my planes in the process this morning. What I ended up doing was flying my attacks in as normal and conducting my drop and dodging the whole way back out and not F keying until I was out of the flak aura. Doing anything but this more or less ensured that my whole squad would die. It of course does not help that the majority of ships seem to be AA spec, but I was surprised how drastically my losses went down just by doing it all myself. A few overlapping bubbles though and chances were I was going to lose most if not all of them anyway.

Edited by Alabamastan
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9 hours ago, Alabamastan said:

    Numbers be damned after about 3 games of getting deplaned in Midway I was able to work out how to make attacks and not lose all my planes in the process this morning. What I ended up doing was flying my attacks in as normal and conducting my drop and dodging the whole way back out and not F keying until I was out of the flak aura. Doing anything but this more or less ensured that my whole squad would die. It of course does not help that the majority of ships seem to be AA spec, but I was surprised how drastically my losses went down just by doing it all myself. A few overlapping bubbles though and chances were I was going to lose most if not all of them anyway.

It ultimately depends on the ship you're facing, too. The AA monsters are nigh unassailable. Even if you do manage to get some damage through, all of the planes in that squad will be lost. Since the damage is coming from the continuous damage part of the AA, there's no amount of dodging that can save you from it.

That's something I dislike about this (substantial) shift of damage from flak to continuous- a lot of times it feels better to come in as fast as possible and just plow through the flak puffs, as the damage you take from them is less than the damage you'd take from continuous damage during the extra few seconds spent dodging. I think some amount of shifting was necessary, but I also think WG took it too far. A happy middle ground needs to be found. The high unavoidable damage combined with the "F-key" nerf ALSO affecting planes that are simply automatically breaking from the squad and recalling after dropping their bombs has left carriers with a very large amount of unavoidable and uncontrollable loss.

Of course all of this would be worlds easier if the continuous damage focused the weakest plane instead of spreading the damage evenly over the whole squad, but... that's the topic for another thread.

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50 minutes ago, Frenotx said:

It ultimately depends on the ship you're facing, too. The AA monsters are nigh unassailable. Even if you do manage to get some damage through, all of the planes in that squad will be lost. Since the damage is coming from the continuous damage part of the AA, there's no amount of dodging that can save you from it.

That's something I dislike about this (substantial) shift of damage from flak to continuous- a lot of times it feels better to come in as fast as possible and just plow through the flak puffs, as the damage you take from them is less than the damage you'd take from continuous damage during the extra few seconds spent dodging. I think some amount of shifting was necessary, but I also think WG took it too far. A happy middle ground needs to be found. The high unavoidable damage combined with the "F-key" nerf ALSO affecting planes that are simply automatically breaking from the squad and recalling after dropping their bombs has left carriers with a very large amount of unavoidable and uncontrollable loss.

Of course all of this would be worlds easier if the continuous damage focused the weakest plane instead of spreading the damage evenly over the whole squad, but... that's the topic for another thread.

    I don't think it is just the raw DPS eating most people up or I would have never gotten any planes out. I think that when people hit the F key now if they are not completely away from where the flak burst can get them, the planes go in a predictable way that gets them eaten up. My planes losses went down after I did it all by hand and ensured that they were completely away from where the flak bursts could get them, not just part of the way our or mostly out. That means I was spending MORE time in the DPS range because I was having to make S turns inside the AA range to dodge flak. I think that even if they drop the DPS people will still lose planes even if they are not trying to exploit the F key. I can be wrong of course and I can be ok with that, but I do think more balancing even after this change is to be expected is all.

Edited by Alabamastan

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12 minutes ago, Alabamastan said:

    I don't think it is just the raw DPS eating most people up or I would have never gotten any planes out. I think that when people hit the F key now if they are not completely away from where the flak burst can get them, the planes go in a predictable way that gets them eaten up. My planes losses went down after I did it all by hand and ensured that they were completely away from where the flak bursts could get them, not just part of the way our or mostly out. that means I was spending MORE time in the DPS range because I was having to make S turns inside the AA range to dodge flak. I think that even if they drop the DPS people will still lose planes even if they are not trying to exploit the F key. I can be wrong of course and I can be ok with that, but I do think more balancing even after this change is to be expected is all.

I can speak from unfortunate experience that the stronger AA ships (mino, wooster, et al.) are obliterating my planes even if I'm flying through at full speed, and not hitting puffs. Sometimes I can get some ordinance away. Often I can't even do that. Either way, that squad is as good as dead as soon as I chose to fly it into the aura.

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