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Rulue

Can anybody condemn the sinking of Yamato?

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I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa (EDIT: I mean Sibuyan Sea).

Edited by Rulue
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22 minutes ago, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

What?

War isn't a video game, it isn't a manga or anime devoted to fantasy, it's an actually brutal and savage fight for life.  Watch some actual footage of the war, in particular the Marine invasions of Iwo Jima or Okinawa if you don't understand that.

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22 minutes ago, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Should have done to japan what they did to yamato...............oh wait a moment they did ...............

 

:cap_popcorn::cap_rambo:

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I think maybe they should have saved the Nagato or the Prinz, but as for the Yam...

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32 minutes ago, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Um, what? :Smile_amazed:

Did you think the United States was going to allow a such a powerful (and dangerous) status symbol like Yamato to survive after what the Japanese did to the American Navy at Pearl Harbor?

Don't forget, Yamato was (and still is) a huge symbol of national price for that country.  Sending her to the bottom was just one more emphatic statement to the Emperor and the people of Japan that their fate would soon be sealed.

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In one respect because of all the hype and fear that her size was instilling in people, it almost seemed like a huge let down that she was sunk before it was found out what kind of a battle she could really dish out.......ON THE OTHER HAND, it was a good thing that she was sunk before it was found out what sort of a battle and damage she might have been able to dish out. One can only now guess at the various outcomes.

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I know it's bait, but screw it.

 

Simply put that was NEVER going to happen. Ever. For the EXACT same reason that the English didn't capture Bismarck - the crew sunk her. Had she not been sinking - the crew would have done it. Before USN forces could capture the ship. The entire operation would have seen the ship beached and fight till she was destroyed. Even in that battle the crew fought till the ship was beyond saving. To be captured was a great dishonour, to be the guy that let Yamato be captured, the level would be unspeakable. The USN would have had to manage to sink every single escort, somehow get close to the ship, after knocking out every single gun it had including AA - and have enough people to basically eradicate the 3000 man crew, plus anyone the Yamato picked up from the sea. Because they likely would have fought to the death, like on Okinawa, and how many other islands where they basically had to kill every last Japanese soldier to secure it.

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1 hour ago, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Many things to cover here:

1: The US hated Japan for the duration of the war. Anything they could do to further demoralize the enemy would be taken, and get them one step closer to Unconditional Surrender. Capturing the ship would be unnecessarily expensive (she was a gas guzzler that makes Ram Trucks blush) and a waste of men and materials. The Navy had a schedule to keep, after all.

2: The Escorts were of absolutely no threat. Light Cruisers and Destroyers were completely outclassed by their American Counterparts, and had a much more limited combat capability. Yamato was the clear and imminent threat. It would have been just as cruel to sink them, have them then cling to Yamato to live, only for it to later die on Okinawa, assuming the US let her get there. Yeah, the US was never going to do that. They knew she was there. The Sub that spotted them even broadcast on a standard open radio channel in plain English who they were, where they were, and where they were going, what speed, etc.. 

3: The Japanese throughout the entire war chose death over surrender. Captain Seichi would have never surrendered his ship, let alone the pride of the fleet, to the enemy. Attempting to sieze the ship from them by force would have cost hundreds of lives needlessly. (Remember, the US lost 10 planes and 12 men sinking Yamato out of more than 300 aircraft) There is no logical reason to do this.

4: Factual error; Musashi was sunk on Oct. 23, 1944 in the Sibuyan Sea. Yamato was lost Apr. 7, 1945 south of Kyushu. She didn't even make it close to Okinawa.

Operation Ten-Go never should have happened. It was a needless waste of men and materials with no conditions for victory. Essentially her orders were "Beach yourself on Okinawa and kill things until they kill you", and she still failed. Expecting the US to show mercy to a ship whose orders were to kill as many Americans as physically possible is just as fictitious as  the prospect of winning the war at all.

Don't get mad at the US Navy for sinking Yamato. They were doing their jobs. Blame the Japanese Navy for knowingly sending her to her death. Ten-Go was a suicide mission. Condemn the Operation itself, not the people it was aimed at.

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2 hours ago, Halonut24 said:

3: The Japanese throughout the entire war chose death over surrender. Captain Seichi would have never surrendered his ship, let alone the pride of the fleet, to the enemy. Attempting to sieze the ship from them by force would have cost hundreds of lives needlessly. (Remember, the US lost 10 planes and 12 men sinking Yamato out of more than 300 aircraft) There is no logical reason to do this.

 

The officer who wrote an account of this mission mentioned that the night before the battle the Yamato was constantly picking up returns that indicated subs in the area around them. There were so many contacts they basically gave up on evasive maneuvers because it just slowed them down.

He also mentions being convinced the ship was hit by a sub launched torpedo just as the second wave of US aircraft began their attack.  

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3 hours ago, pikohan said:

I think maybe they should have saved the Nagato or the Prinz

What do you mean? Prinz survived the war and was used for nuclear testing later. She wasn't sunk.

4 hours ago, Rulue said:

As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle

How are you supposed to capture a Yamato if the captain (knowing and accepting that they are on a suicide mission) refuses to surrender? Do you board a ship with over 2000 sailors on board? Can you even begin to estimate the potential casualties from such an attempt?

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4 minutes ago, geser98 said:

What do you mean? Prinz survived the war and was used for nuclear testing later. She wasn't sunk.

That's what I'm saying... Nagato and Prinz both survived the war, so it may have been practical to save them (even though the US didn't). Yamato was still an active belligerent when she was sunk, so it definitely wasn't practical to save her.

Edited by pikohan
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On 2/8/2019 at 1:08 PM, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

You serious? That is some serious fanboyism going on.

If ignored the Yamato would have attacked the ships off Okinawa supporting the amphibious operation then beached itself to serve as a giant bunker until it's likely turned into a scrap heap by B-24s and B-29s dropping the heaviest bombs they can carry on it. Until then it would be a massive pain in the rear end for all of the soldiers and marines on Okinawa. Maybe in some alternate history scenario you can have US troops storming the ship with grappling hooks and clearing it out deck by deck but this hardly would have been a fun time for the men who would have to fight and die doing it.

Now maybe you could argue that a surface task force of six USN fast battleships and a whole lot of cruisers and destroyers should have been given the go-ahead to sink the Yamato and escorts instead of several carriers worth of airpower being given the job but it might have gotten more US servicemen killed.

As for the possibility of them surrendering, not very likely given the IJA's and IJN's behavior throughout the entire war. In that surface engagement did occur the ship would eventually meet a fate like Bismarck did unless a powder magazine gets hit.

To the USN there was nothing special about Yamato at the time, it was just another IJN battleship and her true specifications were unknown despite rumors. Even if they knew for a fact it was a behemoth 70,000 ton battleship they wouldn't go out of their way to try to capture it. The US already has ten fast battleships and two more incomplete and under construction back in the US. But that was somewhat irrelevant as the aircraft carrier was the new king of the seas by that point.

 

Maybe the Japanese themselves could have saved the ship until surrender like they managed to save Nagato and in the process not throw away a few thousand lives, but Imperial Japan was fanatical like that. The USN would definitely take interest in studying the ship and it might even be spared nuclear testing unlike the old Nagato but chances are it will still be scrapped in the end. Japan is to be almost completely disarmed and the USN doesn't need another battleship.

The Soviet Union might gladly take Yamato and quite possibly upgrade and use her in the Soviet Navy for some time. They did with other war prizes and were hoping to get one of the remaining Italian Littorio class battleships but there is no way in hell the US would just hand over any of the modern battleships to the USSR.

Edited by Lampshade_M1A2

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On 2/8/2019 at 10:08 AM, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Pearl Harbor.

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:08 AM, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Sinking the Yamato put that worthless hunk of wasted steel and black hole of an already limited oil supply straight to the seabed where it could finally be useful as an artificial reef.

The Yamato is an excellent example of the air of superiority the Japanese felt during WW2. It was unnecessarily big, cost 15-18x the fuel as a destroyer or light cruiser, and did f- all the entire war except suck up resources. Sinking it was the best thing to ever happen.

As for "prestigious", several other ships would happily stake that claim. Perhaps Enterprise, claimed sunk thrice by the Japanese, that had an actual career and influence on the war?

Largest warship? Essex is 19 feet shorter than Yamato. Midway is nearly 100 feet longer than Yamato. Both of these would contest the claim of "largest warship".

Yamato was a joke of a ship like her sister, Musashi.

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If it shoots back and capable of killing US forces: It is a target that must be eliminated.

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On 2/9/2019 at 2:08 AM, Rulue said:

I would say the sinking of the IJN battleship Yamato during the Operation Ten-Go should be condemned. As the Yamato is the prestigious and largest warship in WW2, the US Navy should NOT sink her but the Yahagi and all escorting IJN DDs. They should capture or ignore her rather than sinking her during the battle (no matter if Yamato's captain Seichi Ito offers a surrender to the US Navy). See what they've done to her sister ship Musashi during the Battle of Okinawa.

Are you serious... I absolutely love Yamato and at a point I guess I was like the person who started this post... In fact every year on the date of the sinking of Yamato I would curse the pilots that sank her up until 3 years ago when i turned 20... but I wisened and realised that was an utterly disrespectful and immature thing to do especially to my American friends who were rather (was born in Japan so please pardon me or rather the younger and stupid me for that.. I was very biased towards Yamato to the point its in my bucket list to sail to the spot she sank one day with an IJN flag) You see, I realised that there was absolutely no way Yamato would be saved even if somehow the IJN was able to not send her out... That is because of how much pride Japan put in her and lets put it this way... Mikasa was already a museum by the war and after the war America didnt allow her to be maintained until Admiral Nimitz came along and demanded that Mikasa be restored to her former glory (god bless the world for this wonderful man). Also not forgetting that Houshou, the world's first purpose design and built carrier was not allowed to be kept as a museum. If even Mikasa and Houshou wasnt spared some rough treatment what you will happen to Yamato? Let alone in a war when she is coming towards you to kill you? Not only that I am pretty damn sure the pilots who were trying to sink her had it in their minds that sinking Yamato would be the ultimate revenge for Pearl Harbor which if I were them I would have that squarely in my mind... If even I could see that with my emotional attachment to Yamato.... Why cant you? Sure I get jealous that i can never visit her, to stand on her deck to see her as a museum and to celebrate the best battleship ever but at least I can still think logically about this historical event... Albeit it took 21 years of my life before that happened but yea

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3 hours ago, Nihon_Senkan_Yamato said:

Not only that I am pretty damn sure the pilots who were trying to sink her had it in their minds that sinking Yamato would be the ultimate revenge for Pearl Harbor which if I were them I would have that squarely in my mind...

The 'ultimate revenge' for Pearl Harbor had happened by then, first when all the carriers used in the attack were sunk and then when the battleships damaged there participated in Surigao Strait. 

Edited by Tom_Greg

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Just now, Tom_Greg said:

The 'ultimate revenge' for Peral Harbor had happened by then, first when all the carriers used in the attack were sunk and then when the battleships damaged there participated in Surigao Strait. 

well then again that is true but well I saw it that way because Arizona was the flagship of the Pacific Fleet when she sank and Yamato was flagship of the Combine Fleet. So to avenge the flagship you sink the enemy's flagship

 

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2 hours ago, The_Painted_Target said:

 It was unnecessarily big, cost 15-18x the fuel as a destroyer or light cruiser, and did f- all the entire war except suck up resources. Sinking it was the best thing to ever happen

From August 42 to May 43 it spent a grand total of 1 day outside Truk's lagoon. The running joke in the IJN was to refer to the island as 'Hotel Yamato'. 

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9 minutes ago, Nihon_Senkan_Yamato said:

well then again that is true but well I saw it that way because Arizona was the flagship of the Pacific Fleet when she sank and Yamato was flagship of the Combine Fleet. So to avenge the flagship you sink the enemy's flagship

 

Pretty sure the California was Pacific Fleet flagship until the Pearl Harbor attack, not Arizona. 

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7 minutes ago, Tom_Greg said:

Pretty sure the California was Pacific Fleet flagship until the Pearl Harbor attack, not Arizona. 

She was? Guess I need to start reading up

 

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2 hours ago, Nihon_Senkan_Yamato said:

 

Are you serious... I absolutely love Yamato and at a point I guess I was like the person who started this post... In fact every year on the date of the sinking of Yamato I would curse the pilots that sank her up until 3 years ago when i turned 20... but I wisened and realised that was an utterly disrespectful and immature thing to do especially to my American friends who were rather (was born in Japan so please pardon me or rather the younger and stupid me for that.. I was very biased towards Yamato to the point its in my bucket list to sail to the spot she sank one day with an IJN flag) You see, I realised that there was absolutely no way Yamato would be saved even if somehow the IJN was able to not send her out... That is because of how much pride Japan put in her and lets put it this way... Mikasa was already a museum by the war and after the war America didnt allow her to be maintained until Admiral Nimitz came along and demanded that Mikasa be restored to her former glory (god bless the world for this wonderful man). Also not forgetting that Houshou, the world's first purpose design and built carrier was not allowed to be kept as a museum. If even Mikasa and Houshou wasnt spared some rough treatment what you will happen to Yamato? Let alone in a war when she is coming towards you to kill you? Not only that I am pretty damn sure the pilots who were trying to sink her had it in their minds that sinking Yamato would be the ultimate revenge for Pearl Harbor which if I were them I would have that squarely in my mind... If even I could see that with my emotional attachment to Yamato.... Why cant you? Sure I get jealous that i can never visit her, to stand on her deck to see her as a museum and to celebrate the best battleship ever but at least I can still think logically about this historical event... Albeit it took 21 years of my life before that happened but yea

You also have to consider that the US didn't even know what Yamato was.  Japan had kept is top secret to her own citizens and the US didn't even know what she was armed with or what her tonnage was, all the US saw was a fleet headed to Okinawa to get more people killed.  It's not even revenge for Pearl Harbor at that point because Yamato wasn't even commissioned yet.  Yamato was absolutely not a "prestigious" weapon because almost nobody even knew about her.  Even many of Yamato's builders didn't even know what they were building, I've seen some of the interviews mention they thought they the section they were designing was for a submarine.  That's the tragedy of Yamato, barely anyone knew she was the greatest Battleship until after she was sunk, so she couldn't even be used for Japanese propaganda.

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