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Lochnivar

The PSA I shouldn't have to issue

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It's amazing that in a game that has the most mature level of players that I've ever seen that I have to issue a PSA that boils down to "Chill the F. Out".

When I'm not being the scourge of the high seas (humping the bottom of the ocean), I work for a software company.  What we are seeing with the new patch is normal for a software company.  You release something, catch hell from one extreme who hates the change, then re-balance until you get hate from the other extreme.  When equal amounts of hate are coming from both sides (i.e. stereo) you know you've finally dialed in.

It's been said before that this mess is something of our own fault.

1. People complained about how CV's worked.  And complained.  And complained.  I see how WG wanted to take them, and in many cases the CV's performed as advertised.  They were always intended to be a separate class with an RTS feel.  Nope, not good enough for us to just learn to play together.

2. Nobody play-tested the things.  How many of us have complained that the bots in the training room were too stupid to pour water out of a boot?  With the instructions on the heel?  Personally, I exploit every stupidity to earn some well vented anger at the rest of life.  Sorry Bots.  So, the question is, if we think bots are too stupid to be challenges, what the heck makes us think that they are fair tests of a new concept.  Welcome to Playtesting part 3 (or 4 after the hotfix).

3.  It was actually pretty simple to counter the CV scourge in the original 0.8.0 update.  All you had to do was stay in support of each other and put an AA umbrella up so thick that a CV had a lot of empty bunks in the flight room or choose other targets.  You know, worked together.  As a team.  The games that we played as a team rendered the CV virtually impotent.  The ones that we went our own ways (you know the normal play style), the CV's handed our heads to us.  Coincidence?  I think not.

Ok, the Hakuru (However you spell it) was an exceptional beast of nature.  I wonder if that would have been caught in playtesting...  Just sayin'.

4. In response to us not wanting to play nicely with each other, WG threw the update off the top of the ol'Nerf tree and it hit every single branch as it went down.  Now we have a situation where CVs just don't have the power they should to punish people who don't play together.

5.  Now, in response to the next round of bleating, we're going to be slammed with another hotfix/patch that shifts the balance to the other side.

6. Rinse.

7. Wash.

8. Repeat.

Thanks community.  Thanks.

How about this crazy idea instead?  How about, when a PTS is called, we actually take a day or two to go test that update out?  That way, maybe, just maybe, we can be justified in complaining when WG doesn't listen to its player base?  And how about, sit down for this one, we start acting like the better caliber of player base we are and actually work together in the game.  Each and every one of us know how to do this.  We know the difference between a brawler and a support ship.  We know where to put ships in a formation.  We do this in freaking clan battles for the love of all that's holy.

Is WOWs going to die?  I hope not.  If it does, I don't think it will be WG's fault directly.  They've had WoT going for almost a decade now.  I don't see that type of company investing the resources it has into WoWs and let it fall.  If it falls, it will be the tension that we, as a community, generate when we aren't willing to do our part to make this game better.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln, "Be Excellent to Each Other".

Love,

Your Friendly Neighborhood WarGaming Apologist.

(Hey, I'm going to be called that, might as well preempt it.)

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Well, apologist sounds nicer than shill. xD

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1 minute ago, Gasboy said:

Well, apologist sounds nicer than shill. xD

Agreed!

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If the PTS doesn't get enough players that's nobody's fault but WG's. They could offer (much) bigger rewards for lots of PTS play. They could not run PTS periods in the midst of holidays and extensive grinds on the normal server. Players are not employees. They do not owe Wargaming hours of free testing on a separate client. 

Edited by Rocketpacman
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Just now, Rocketpacman said:

If the PTS doesn't get enough players that's nobody's fault but WG's. They could offer (much) bigger rewards for lots of PTS play. They could not run PTS periods in the midst of holidays and extensive grinds on the normal server. Players are not employees. 

Agreed in some parts.  I would think that, if we had actual interest in the game and the way it develops, we should be willing to go PTS even without rewards.

The timing of the PTS are one of the things that I've complained about before.  Expecting people to come out during an event is questionable, at best.  They are on a development cycle.  They don't have a lot of wiggle room to schedule PTS outside of that development schedule.

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Holding the pts during the holidays and during the pef grind didn't help their numbers I'm sure. Maybe if they had started later they could have gotten more?

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4 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

If the PTS doesn't get enough players that's nobody's fault but WG's. They could offer (much) bigger rewards for lots of PTS play. They could not run PTS periods in the midst of holidays and extensive grinds on the normal server. Players are not employees. They do not owe Wargaming hours of free testing on a separate client. 

image.png.f6549b8d62317b5a9144f6ce27b9d515.pngPreach it

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I am all for being nice and all but it doesn't take 100 players testing to easily find out the CV's were way overprowered, F KEY abuse, spotting would be issues. Do they play their own game? That is a better question. 

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1 minute ago, Steeler_Nation_USA said:

I am all for being nice and all but it doesn't take 100 players testing to easily find out the CV's were way overprowered, F KEY abuse, spotting would be issues. Do they play their own game? That is a better question. 

Do bots send in feedback on what they observe?  Would have been nice if ::Tourville:: had filed the F Key abuse.

I think they do play their game, and that's the problem.  They way they play it is laboratory grade and very different from the wild.

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11 minutes ago, Rocketpacman said:

If the PTS doesn't get enough players that's nobody's fault but WG's. They could offer (much) bigger rewards for lots of PTS play. They could not run PTS periods in the midst of holidays and extensive grinds on the normal server. Players are not employees. They do not owe Wargaming hours of free testing on a separate client. 

All bigger rewards would do is draw people to collect the reward and they would then stop. It might add another day to the period where there is actually enough people playing to get useful information.

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4 minutes ago, Lochnivar said:

Agreed in some parts.  I would think that, if we had actual interest in the game and the way it develops, we should be willing to go PTS even without rewards.

The timing of the PTS are one of the things that I've complained about before.  Expecting people to come out during an event is questionable, at best.  They are on a development cycle.  They don't have a lot of wiggle room to schedule PTS outside of that development schedule.

Sure but if you're not getting enough players that way and you're a massive company who can throw out virtual goods to entice players without any real cost to yourselves expecting the players to step up and not the company is a bit backwards isn't it? I guess this is where I struggle a bit. Because no matter how much you like and are invested in this game it's ultimately a commercial product being developed by paid professionals. And not one or two guys working out of their basements either. The onus to make this game great should be on the company developing it not on the people paying their salaries. 

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

All bigger rewards would do is draw people to collect the reward and they would then stop. It might add another day to the period where there is actually enough people playing to get useful information.

If you tie the bigger rewards to more PTS playtime (and even playtime on the specific ships you want to test or the specific mechanics you want to test like get x number of CV torpedo hits) you will get more PTS playtime. It's as simple as that. I don't think it's particularly important that the data is collected over a long period of time is it? Of course if it is you could also reward people that way (daily missions on the PTS for example). 

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Just now, Rocketpacman said:

Sure but if you're not getting enough players that way and you're a massive company who can throw out virtual goods to entice players without any real cost to yourselves expecting the players to step up and not the company is a bit backwards isn't it? I guess this is where I struggle a bit. Because no matter how much you like and are invested in this game it's ultimately a commercial product being developed by paid professionals. And not one or two guys working out of their basements either. The onus to make this game great should be on the company developing it not on the people paying their salaries. 

That's a very good point. The flip side of it is that the company needs to develop a project that fulfills the desires of the player base itself.  For that, it has to know what the desires of the player base is.  Much of that is the idea behind PTS.  It goes back to whether or not WG actually plays their game.  They do, but what they think as balanced is based on different expectations from how they play vs what your average player, widest base, expects.

That's not to say I would say no to some nice and shiny loot, I would certainly welcome it.  I'm just saying that we can't use that as a reason why we don't contribute.

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27 minutes ago, Lochnivar said:

I work for a software company.  What we are seeing with the new patch is normal for a software company.

So your company does half-hearted testing, doesn't listen to player feedback, and forces whatever feels balanced at the moment on the end-user.

I can totally see why you would want us to chill out.

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33 minutes ago, Lochnivar said:

7. Wash.

This, WG.  This.

But maybe, wash then rinse.

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1 minute ago, Rabbitt81 said:

So your company does half-hearted testing, doesn't listen to player feedback, and forces whatever feels balanced at the moment on the end-user.

I can totally see why you would want us to chill out.

So much salt.

You can have the best testing in the world and still completely miss the mark.  It doesn't help if the community who it's targeted doesn't help them help us.

Of course they are listening to player feedback.  How else do you think we're in the predicament we are now?  People started complaining (feedback) and they started fiddling with things.

Point back to my previous points.  They have a different perspective than we do.  They know the game mechanics inside and out and other tiddlybits that we don't have access it.  The numbers and intent may work on paper, but in the wild?  Not so much.

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34 minutes ago, Lochnivar said:

It's amazing that in a game that has the most mature level of players that I've ever seen that I have to issue a PSA that boils down to "Chill the F. Out".

 

 

Age does not = maturity  

&

Age does not = wisdom

 

Both of these things I notice in myself every dang day. 

 

 

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This was a massive paradigm shift in the game. WG knew they were going to need to do the balancing in the live environment. They even told us that is what they were doing. They are doing the balancing as we go and it is working. Those of you who can not handle it take a break there are plenty of us who will still be here and will help WG get it worked out. 

All will be well.

Chill....

luke skywalker no more questions GIF by Star Wars

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2 minutes ago, Fishrokk said:

This, WG.  This.

But maybe, wash then rinse.

Well played, well played.

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10 minutes ago, Rabbitt81 said:

So your company does half-hearted testing, doesn't listen to player feedback, and forces whatever feels balanced at the moment on the end-user.

I can totally see why you would want us to chill out.

Yes, most software companies function like this. I've worked for 2 and i've seen it regularly.  And how often do you hear of game companies rolling out half baked products/patches these days? It's everywhere. Production environments have replaced in depth QA. 

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2 minutes ago, QQ_Whine_Moar said:

Yes, most software companies function like this. I've worked for 2 and i've seen it regularly. 

If that's the case then it doesn't matter how much testing players participate in or what we say.

The forum is bread for the circuses. 

Edited by Rabbitt81

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Just now, Rabbitt81 said:

Companies that produce polished patches and software changes must be just lucky then?

This is a pretty weak rebuttal.  The definition of "patch" means that something in the original software change wasn't as intended, hence, had to be patched to fix what was erred in the first place.

There are very, very few companies that release polished products.  When you work with the product enough, you find all sorts of little gremlins in the code.  Oh the horror stories.

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1 minute ago, Lochnivar said:

This is a pretty weak rebuttal.  The definition of "patch" means that something in the original software change wasn't as intended, hence, had to be patched to fix what was erred in the first place.

There are very, very few companies that release polished products.  When you work with the product enough, you find all sorts of little gremlins in the code.  Oh the horror stories.

"patch" is what WGing is calling it, I didn't pull that word out of thin air.

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Just now, Rabbitt81 said:

"patch" is what WGing is calling it, I didn't pull that word out of thin air.

I know that's what WG is calling it, and it's correct.  A patch is what you put out to fix a problem with a software release.  A hotfix is something that's more critical and not necessarily in the development cycle.

But, your point was that there are companies that create polished patches and changes.  If changes were "polished" then a patch wouldn't be needed.

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