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SJ_Sailer

New to CA - Advice on Dealing with Island Hiding

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Hi Guys:

I used to play DD's all the time but after the CV rework that no longer became a winning strategy so I migrated to Cruisers, Yorck specifically.

Before in a DD, Cruiser Island hiding was not a big deal as destroyers had the speed and concealment to approach a stationary target and drop torps at them.  However now in a cruiser I am spotted and focus fired by 1 to 3 cruisers behind an island upon approach and by the time I get in a position to hit them I am already dead.

So to all those long time cruiser players, how do you deal with cruisers hiding right up against islands?  Specifically if you have a German destroyer with flatter firing arcs?

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

(PS: After the CV rework I am seeing 0 to 1 DD's per battles which seems to be encouraging island hiding by cruisers since they have good AA to keep CV's at bay.)

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You dont hide behind islands if youre playing german cruisers.

German cruisers have flatter arcs, high fire chance and they burn down ships. I would say choose steering mod in module 4 and play a kiting cruiser role. Thats what the german cruiser do best. You have ro make use of the accuracy and long range of german cruisers and the flatter arcs means less travel time.

You will have to learn how to kite and how to avoid incoming shells. Priority target is a must skill so you know how many ships are aiming you and you know which direction to kite.

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2 minutes ago, lungiwear said:

You dont hide behind islands if youre playing german cruisers.

German cruisers have flatter arcs, high fire chance and they burn down ships. I would say choose steering mod in module 4 and play a kiting cruiser role. Thats what the german cruiser do best. You have ro make use of the accuracy and long range of german cruisers and the flatter arcs means less travel time.

You will have to learn how to kite and how to avoid incoming shells. Priority target is a must skill so you know how many ships are aiming you and you know which direction to kite.

Tier 6:

Nurnberg: HE: 1700 damage, 8%

Budyonny: HE 2200 damage, 12%

La Galissionière: HE 2200 damage, 12%

Aoba: HE 3300 damage, 17%

Tier 7:

Yorck: HE 2900 damage, 12%

Schors: HE 2200 damage, 12%

Algerie: HE 2800 damage, 15%

Myoko: HE 3300 damage. 17%

Tier 8:

Admiral Hipper: HE 2300 damage, 11%

Chapayev: HE 2200 damage, 12%

Charles Martel: HE 2800 damage, 15%

Mogami: HE 2800 damage, 15%

Tier 9:

Roon: HE 2500 damage, 13%

Dimitri Donskoi: HE 2500 damage, 13%

Saint-Louis: HE 2800 damage, 15%

Ibuki: HE 3300 damage, 17%

Tier 10:

Hindenburg: He 2500 damage, 13%

Moskva: HE 3100 damage, 17%

Henri IV: HE 3400 damage, 22%

Zao: HE 3400 damage, 19%

 

I doubt that German HE are anything special. In fact, they tend to be on the lower end of the ''flat arc'' Cruiser in term of fire chances and HE damage, while having more often less barrel/ slower fire rate than the other ships. It can be play that way, but German cruiser aren't that great for that. Their strength is their awesome AP shell and their over than average solidity, making them quite good cqc cruisers.

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, lungiwear said:

You dont hide behind islands if youre playing german cruisers.

German cruisers have flatter arcs, high fire chance and they burn down ships. I would say choose steering mod in module 4 and play a kiting cruiser role. Thats what the german cruiser do best. You have ro make use of the accuracy and long range of german cruisers and the flatter arcs means less travel time.

You will have to learn how to kite and how to avoid incoming shells. Priority target is a must skill so you know how many ships are aiming you and you know which direction to kite.

Yes, I figured that much out pretty quickly....the point was how do I kill the cruisers hiding behind islands.  I do not want to do the hiding.  I have been seeing a lot of it lately and it is pretty cheesy to me.  Just makes me want to dislodge them more.  (Maybe due to may past DD up bringing.)

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37 minutes ago, theLaalaa said:

Pick another target?

Yes valid point, but with everyone hiding behind island lately that limits my choices.  Besides those targets just bug me for some reason.

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The key to cruiser play is protecting your ship and cheap shotting people. Find cover that you can shoot over, or learn to use just your front guns so that your guns can hit the target while still staying undetected. 

Learn when not to shoot, just be cause you can hit someone doesn't mean you should. Take a look at your targets guns If they aren't on you you might be able to get off two salvos before he can train them on you, by them you should have tucked behind cover.

Be that jerk in the neighborhood who would throw rocks and then run back into his house for protection.

Watching this guy play cruiser changed how I do everything.

 

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There are two types of cruisers:

Those with flat arcs (Russian, German, IJN) will struggle to clear the islands with their shells. You deal with these by getting close enough to the other side of the island that they can't lob shells anymore.

And those with high arcs (American, French), which you deal with my staying at range and dodging their slow-moving shells. Sail around the map border to reduce the amount of space behind the island that's safe for them to retreat to.

 

In general, the best advice I can give is to try and play a few island-huggers. You'll find that it's actually a very precarious playstyle where a lot can go wrong, especially when facing groups of enemies. There's only a few places on each map that are truly excellent island-hugging positions, and most can be countered with a long range crossfire. 

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2 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Hi Guys:

I used to play DD's all the time but after the CV rework that no longer became a winning strategy so I migrated to Cruisers, Yorck specifically.

Before in a DD, Cruiser Island hiding was not a big deal as destroyers had the speed and concealment to approach a stationary target and drop torps at them.  However now in a cruiser I am spotted and focus fired by 1 to 3 cruisers behind an island upon approach and by the time I get in a position to hit them I am already dead.

So to all those long time cruiser players, how do you deal with cruisers hiding right up against islands?  Specifically if you have a German destroyer with flatter firing arcs?

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

(PS: After the CV rework I am seeing 0 to 1 DD's per battles which seems to be encouraging island hiding by cruisers since they have good AA to keep CV's at bay.)

Find a island, and get up right behind it and pop shot the exposed red cruisers.

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54 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

The key to cruiser play is protecting your ship and cheap shotting people.

 

If there were a cruiser bible, this passage would be in it.

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2 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

I am spotted and focus fired by 1 to 3 cruisers behind an island upon approach and by the time I get in a position to hit them I am already dead.

Island hiding is as much an art as it is a strategy (or tactic).  There are some players who know the maps inside and out...know where to go...know when to go.  Others (like me) aren't that savy, but over time have figured out some rules of thumb.  And one of those rules of thumb is exactly related to the comment.  "spotted and focus fired...by the time I get in position".   The rule is....you must be able to get in position and NOT be spotted on approach...or if spotted, the enemy does not have time to focus before you reach cover.

A good island position is only good if you can get there.  And that's where the art comes in.  Can you get there (without getting focused)?  This is the key.  And there is no simple answer.  If you're really into it, you'll need to study maps and perhaps find someone who can give you pointers.  If you're only partially into it (like me), then it's more of a seat of your pants approach based on lots of play time.  Study or experience, or both, is key.   

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1 hour ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Yes, I figured that much out pretty quickly....the point was how do I kill the cruisers hiding behind islands.  

You don't, not in that situation anyway. If you can't get out of range, full speed toward the island, eventually they won't be able to hit you.

Now it's a different situation.

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Playing a Cruiser is a lot like playing a DD, your concealment matters a whole lot, and you must properly manage the threats to your ship.

First of all, you're not going to dislodge those Cruisers. That's not your job, and you're not equipped for it. The only way to stop them is with a BB pushing them and you supporting.

If you engage them it needs to be a wide flanking move where their slow lofty shells are worse than your flat arcs.

Alternatively you could push up into their island and hold the edge as your team pushes them. If they come out from behind their cover you're their to punish them for major damage.

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You either relocate to a position that can fire around the corner of the island (flank), or you back up far enough that your shells drop down on them (because shells fall more vertically from farther away). Or you shoot a more opportune target. The guaranteed losing move is to solo charge toward them.

Edited by Edgecase
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33 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

Playing a Cruiser is a lot like playing a DD, your concealment matters a whole lot, and you must properly manage the threats to your ship.

First of all, you're not going to dislodge those Cruisers. That's not your job, and you're not equipped for it. The only way to stop them is with a BB pushing them and you supporting.

If you engage them it needs to be a wide flanking move where their slow lofty shells are worse than your flat arcs.

Alternatively you could push up into their island and hold the edge as your team pushes them. If they come out from behind their cover you're their to punish them for major damage.

Thanks to everyone who provided their advice.  This seems to dovetail into some other advice I got for Yorck.  So to consolidate everyone's comments:

  • Don't try to bow on rush the island.
  • Do keep to max range and shoot HE out of their range.  Take a wide arc to their location.
  • Do not fire while moving unless you are out of every cruiser's range or sight.  (I think Yorck is one of the longer range cruisers so most island huggers should be 2-3 km less.)
  • Find another target if availalbe
  • Use distance and upgraded rudder to kite long range shells

Anything I missed?  To be honest sounds a little like BB tactics.

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35 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Do not fire while moving unless you are out of every cruiser's range or sight.

Don't take this one to the extreme. Judge your relative risk by counting how many attackers you'd be exposed to, whether their guns are facing you, whether they're already shooting at something else, and so on. A lot of times, it's way more worth it to add your guns to a firefight that's already broken out.

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3 hours ago, lungiwear said:

I would say choose steering mod in module 4 and play a kiting cruiser role. Thats what the german cruiser do best. You have ro make use of the accuracy and long range of german cruisers and the flatter arcs means less travel time.

I do have the steering module and it works well, though the turrets have a hard time keep up.  Especially the back if you turn around.  What kiting techniques do you recommend?  Moving left and right going toward the enemy, away from the enemy, or parallel to the enemy?  I find that "U" turns work well except the "U" turns totally mess up my rear turrets and by the time they catch up it is time to turn around again.

Do you take the Aiming, AA, or Turret Rotation module? I had the turret rotation model which helped but the dispersion was noticeably worse.  The 0.6 second reload penalty was not noticeable.

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10 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

I do have the steering module and it works well, though the turrets have a hard time keep up.  Especially the back if you turn around.  What kiting techniques do you recommend?  Moving left and right going toward the enemy, away from the enemy, or parallel to the enemy?  I find that "U" turns work well except the "U" turns totally mess up my rear turrets and by the time they catch up it is time to turn around again.

Do you take the Aiming, AA, or Turret Rotation module? I had the turret rotation model which helped but the dispersion was noticeably worse.  The 0.6 second reload penalty was not noticeable.

you always kite in the direction in which the enemy is moving i.e parallel. that means you have to show a little bit less broadside when shooting all guns or you can just manage by shooting back guns if the enemy is low.

I usually time the shots that the enemy is taking. if its a BB then every 20 seconds you need t start maneuvering, if youre kiting a cruiser then its better to go dark, and fire when he opens up with AP.  all the heavy cruisers have slow turret rotation that may not keep up if you use steering mod, so you need to see when the enemy is firing and in that time you need to fire all guns or else just be happy shooting back guns. its a bit tricky but highly rewarding if you get the hang of it.

I use that technique for my IJN and german cruisers. I go close to the cap circle (just close enough that my detection range is barely detected from cap circle depending where DD is) and then the enemy BBs open up. take the kiting position and start kiting dragging along all the BBs shooting at you. High risk play and high rewarding play. you need to get good at that though by praticing it.

my strategy is good for clan wars whenever I play a heavy cruiser, needs a little tweaking for random battles but you can make it work if you know when to push and when to kite. im only a above average cruise player though i have good damage numbers in them. thats just because I know how to play a ship and sometime I potato lol.

but mainly Im a DD player and my rating in DDs is great. usually ill try me best to dislodge the enemy ships camping behind islands by spamming torps. but yes you do need a flanking BB to support you if you want to dislodge them in a cruiser. DD players nowadays just arent good enough. ive seen many killed by secondary guns... thats just not acceptable

Edited by lungiwear

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2 hours ago, Madwolf05 said:

Playing a Cruiser is a lot like playing a DD, your concealment matters a whole lot, and you must properly manage the threats to your ship.

First of all, you're not going to dislodge those Cruisers. That's not your job, and you're not equipped for it. The only way to stop them is with a BB pushing them and you supporting.

If you engage them it needs to be a wide flanking move where their slow lofty shells are worse than your flat arcs.

Alternatively you could push up into their island and hold the edge as your team pushes them. If they come out from behind their cover you're their to punish them for major damage.

^This.

5 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Hi Guys:

I used to play DD's all the time but after the CV rework that no longer became a winning strategy so I migrated to Cruisers, Yorck specifically.

Before in a DD, Cruiser Island hiding was not a big deal as destroyers had the speed and concealment to approach a stationary target and drop torps at them.  However now in a cruiser I am spotted and focus fired by 1 to 3 cruisers behind an island upon approach and by the time I get in a position to hit them I am already dead.

So to all those long time cruiser players, how do you deal with cruisers hiding right up against islands?  Specifically if you have a German destroyer with flatter firing arcs?

Any advice appreciated.

Thanks.

(PS: After the CV rework I am seeing 0 to 1 DD's per battles which seems to be encouraging island hiding by cruisers since they have good AA to keep CV's at bay.)

I play USN CAs and CLs a lot and use island waifus routinely.  If you are facing a Helena or a  New Orleans (to use the same tier) which found a good sniper position behind an island you aren't likely going to dislodge him  by yourself in another cruiser. If it could be done that easily he wouldn't have chosen that position. German cruisers (also Japanese and Russian) have to outflank or get help. If the camping cruiser picked the right waifu they won't be able to fire over it. If you are by yourself and outflanking you need to do it at ranges at which you can stay concealed or you'll die. Like @Madwolf05 said the best ship to do this is a fast BB. USN cruisers don't really have a good way of dealing with them quickly. Other cruisers aren't good at it unless they can get to a flank and outrange the camping cruiser and that requires a spotter.

People have mentioned kiting but isn't really going to work in the situation you described. If the cruiser is camping behind an island that's where he wants to be. Unless you luck out and are facing a bad player he isn't going to leave a good position to chase you for you to kite him. You kiting away and conceding the area to him is what he is looking for. 

Sometimes there is no good way to do something in the ship you have. In this case Yorck trying to dislodge a cruiser firing over an island is a losing proposition unless he makes a mistake. I'm not even confident in the flanking idea I suggested because if I was in the New Orleans and I see a Yorck trying to come around my island on the flank I'm just salivating and I will happily demonstrate my better autobounce angles and my better rate of fire over the bow. Helena will just IFHE you to death. Truthfully if you are facing a cruiser camping there you probably need to pick another target. Let your BBs or DDs drive him out. That's why you have allies. If you are in another USN cruiser (or UK) with higher ballistic arcs you CAN try to counterbattery him and force him out. It is dangerous unless you have your own island waifu (or UK smoke and are outside of radar range) but it does work if the situation is right.

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4 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

^This.

I play USN CAs and CLs a lot and use island waifus routinely.  If you are facing a Helena or a  New Orleans (to use the same tier) which found a good sniper position behind an island you aren't likely going to dislodge him  by yourself in another cruiser. If it could be done that easily he wouldn't have chosen that position. German cruisers (also Japanese and Russian) have to outflank or get help. If the camping cruiser picked the right waifu they won't be able to fire over it. If you are by yourself and outflanking you need to do it at ranges at which you can stay concealed or you'll die. Like @Madwolf05 said the best ship to do this is a fast BB. USN cruisers don't really have a good way of dealing with them quickly. Other cruisers aren't good at it unless they can get to a flank and outrange the camping cruiser and that requires a spotter.

People have mentioned kiting but isn't really going to work in the situation you described. If the cruiser is camping behind an island that's where he wants to be. Unless you luck out and are facing a bad player he isn't going to leave a good position to chase you for you to kite him. You kiting away and conceding the area to him is what he is looking for. 

Sometimes there is no good way to do something in the ship you have. In this case Yorck trying to dislodge a cruiser firing over an island is a losing proposition unless he makes a mistake. I'm not even confident in the flanking idea I suggested because if I was in the New Orleans and I see a Yorck trying to come around my island on the flank I'm just salivating and I will happily demonstrate my better autobounce angles and my better rate of fire over the bow. Helena will just IFHE you to death. Truthfully if you are facing a cruiser camping there you probably need to pick another target. Let your BBs or DDs drive him out. That's why you have allies. If you are in another USN cruiser (or UK) with higher ballistic arcs you CAN try to counterbattery him and force him out. It is dangerous unless you have your own island waifu (or UK smoke and are outside of radar range) but it does work if the situation is right.

Thanks for the advice.  If you were in a Yorck>Hippper>Roon>Hindenburg what would  be your prime targets?  I am having a hell of a time trying to shoot at DD's.  (A lot easier in Fiji)  Cruisers seem to be island hugging all of the sudden, and BB's fight back hard.  In your opinion where should I be focusing my time?

PS: I really love the Fiji but I have been told on multiple occasions that the Hindenburg would be a lot easier to play than a Minotaur at T10.

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3 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Thanks for the advice.  If you were in a Yorck>Hippper>Roon>Hindenburg what would  be your prime targets?  I am having a hell of a time trying to shoot at DD's.  (A lot easier in Fiji)  Cruisers seem to be island hugging all of the sudden, and BB's fight back hard.  In your opinion where should I be focusing my time?

PS: I really love the Fiji but I have been told on multiple occasions that the Hindenburg would be a lot easier to play than a Minotaur at T10.

The unfortunate thing is you are on Yorck. Yorck isn't really good at shooting DDs. The others above and below it are very good at it. Yorck is really an odd-duck in the KM cruiser tree. I never liked that ship. Its shells are rather slow and loopy and very un-German-like compared to the other ships above and below it, but not slow enough to use islands well. It really throws you off compared to the other KM cruisers. It forces Yorck to operate in closer than you would like but its detection range makes it easy to spot. People like that ship for some reason but I consider it to be one of the worst in the KM line because it is so different from all the others. Best thing for Yorck in my opinion is to sail in towards BBs while unspotted, then turn out and open fire on them while kiting gradually away and set them on fire. Things get much easier when you get to Hipper and up and Hindy is great fun. Gunnery on those ships is beautiful and they have the added benefit of durability and good AA.

The other KM cruisers as a group actually are good at targeting everything but camping cruisers. lol. They have fast, flat shells (except Yorck) and can even bulls-eye DDs well at respectable ranges. They are also some of the toughest cruisers (Hipper and up) on their tiers and can bounce BB fire to some degree. The one thing you have to watch out for is KM cruiser uniformly have terrible detection ranges. Other cruisers (USN and UK) and DDs can keep you lit up without you being able to see them and there isn't a lot you can do about it. That is usually what gets KM cruisers killed. Keep close eye on the indicator tell you how many people are targeting you. That is true for every cruiser line but the KM cruisers with poor detection ranges need to watch it like a hawk. Gunnery-wise, you can shoot at whatever is in the open and available. I tend to go after BBs to light them on fire, or DDs  (if someone detects them for me). KM cruisers also get 1/4 penetration on their HE so it is a decent weapon to use on BBs and DDs. Cruisers certainly aren't bad targets but they aren't as optimal unless you get a broadside shot or can surprise them. Too many other cruisers can tank your damage, out spot you and/or flat out outDPS you.

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27 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

 

PS: I really love the Fiji but I have been told on multiple occasions that the Hindenburg would be a lot easier to play than a Minotaur at T10.

Yes. Hindy is much easier to play on T10 than Minotaur. It is the T10 CA I recommend to friends and the best all-arounder. It is a very forgiving ship and is durable. Mino is great, but it is very specialized and you have to be good at that specialty. I love my DM, but it also is rather specialized and you have to know how to play it.

Hindy's one big weakness is pretty much what I mentioned about the other KM CAs. Its detection is terrible for a CA. Seriously terrible. It's on the level of some T9 BBs. That means you are one of the most often-spotted ships and that is not a good thing for a CA. Hindy really can't shoot over islands but it still needs to use them to cover its approach and to minimize the number of enemies which can target you. (True again for all cruisers). I fight near islands so I can move behind them and break line of sight if, for example, too many T10 BBs start aiming for me. Hindy can't control detection ranges, but it can use islands to limit the opponents who can fire on it. If most of the enemy fleet is to your left, and there are a couple of ships ahead of you, put an island to your left so that the ones to the left can't shoot over, and fire on the couple ahead of you. 

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7 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

Hindy's one big weakness is pretty much what I mentioned about the other KM CAs. Its detection is terrible for a CA. Seriously terrible. It's on the level of some T9 BBs. That means you are one of the most often-spotted ships and that is not a good thing for a CA.

Great advice, all of it thanks.  Hindy's weakness makes me think of saying from my scuba career, "You do not have to out swim the shark, you just have to out swim your buddy".  I am guessing having other other cruisers between you and the BB makes you a less appetizing target.

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1 hour ago, Tzarevitch said:

The unfortunate thing is you are on Yorck. Yorck isn't really good at shooting DDs. The others above and below it are very good at it. Yorck is really an odd-duck in the KM cruiser tree.

Sorry, one more thing.  Reviewing the stats again and is it me or is it a bad joke that the key offensive trait of the Yorck is its long range guns but it's key defensive trait is its short range turtle back armor?

Great long range guns and weakness to long range plunging fire?

Great short range armor but low DPM guns?

Any reason the could not give it long range guns and turtle back deck armor?

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