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Slammer58

Battleship Hiei wreck found off Guadalcanal

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Let's hope no one starts salvaging the ship for the metal and leave the wreck and dead in peace.

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HIEI is 4nm away from Kirishima. 

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51 minutes ago, wkcw1 said:

Let's hope no one starts salvaging the ship for the metal and leave the wreck and dead in peace.

Have you read the article linked? The wreck lies at a depth of almost a kilometer, no one would bother doing anything to it. It's cost-prohibitive.

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I find it funny that this news comes not too long after I got to wondering again how long it would be before someone found her. She's possibly my favorite of the Kongo class, although I like all 4 of them. Certainly that prototype Yamato-style bridge is part of what makes her look so good to me.

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Dear Mr Allen

 

Go find the IJN carriers at Midway

 

Please

 

 

Thank you

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2 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Dear Mr Allen

 

Go find the IJN carriers at Midway

 

Please

 

 

Thank you

Unfortunately Mr. Allen is no longer with us. He passed away last October.

Not to worry though. If anyone can find those carriers, it's his team.

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23 hours ago, geser98 said:

Have you read the article linked? The wreck lies at a depth of almost a kilometer, no one would bother doing anything to it. It's cost-prohibitive.

Modern day salvage ships will have no problems going down at that depth. I’ve read that the Chinese have ships that can reach down to 6km.

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4 minutes ago, wkcw1 said:

Modern day salvage ships will have no problems going down at that depth. I’ve read that the Chinese have ships that can reach down to 6km.

I didn't say it was impossible, just that it's economically not viable spending a large sum of money only to end up with bits of rusted iron. Also it would be technologically very challenging. After such a long time in the water it's highly likely that the wreck will just fall apart if you try to lift it from seabed.

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That's what I thought initially but steel in the pre nuclear era is well sought after for medical uses.

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19 hours ago, wkcw1 said:

That's what I thought initially but steel in the pre nuclear era is well sought after for medical uses.

It's probably the cost-on-return that is the bigger issue though.  With deeper excavations, more accidents can happen. 

The Chinese haven't been the only ones engaging in illegal salvage as well.  Europeans also do it to other European vessels.  To quote this article:

The Netherlands has a significant illegal salvage industry, notably looting HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue, and HMS Cressy off the Dutch coast. Similarly, UK salvers have exploited historic Dutch shipwrecks. At a recent lecture at the British Museum, Dr. Innes McCartney presented evidence showing the widespread salvage of the ships from the Battle of Jutland. A recent report showed it to be a Dutch salvage firm. UK and Dutch officials know the responsible salvers, but neither government has taken action beyond strongly worded letters.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2016/dec/20/can-anything-be-done-to-stop-the-vanishing-wwii-shipwrecks-of-java

Among the wrecks taken from Jutland includes the HMS Queen Mary - a battlecruiser that was lost with1,266 officers and men.

http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05/22/exclusive-named-the-salvage-company-which-looted-jutland-war-graves-as-mod-fails-to-act/

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On 2/8/2019 at 11:26 AM, Lord_Slayer said:

Dear Mr Allen

 

Go find the IJN carriers at Midway

 

Please

 

 

Thank you

I would also take the heroes from Taffy 3.

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17 hours ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

It's probably the cost-on-return that is the bigger issue though.  With deeper excavations, more accidents can happen. 

The Chinese haven't been the only ones engaging in illegal salvage as well.  Europeans also do it to other European vessels.  To quote this article:

The Netherlands has a significant illegal salvage industry, notably looting HMS Aboukir, HMS Hogue, and HMS Cressy off the Dutch coast. Similarly, UK salvers have exploited historic Dutch shipwrecks. At a recent lecture at the British Museum, Dr. Innes McCartney presented evidence showing the widespread salvage of the ships from the Battle of Jutland. A recent report showed it to be a Dutch salvage firm. UK and Dutch officials know the responsible salvers, but neither government has taken action beyond strongly worded letters.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2016/dec/20/can-anything-be-done-to-stop-the-vanishing-wwii-shipwrecks-of-java

Among the wrecks taken from Jutland includes the HMS Queen Mary - a battlecruiser that was lost with1,266 officers and men.

http://thepipeline.info/blog/2016/05/22/exclusive-named-the-salvage-company-which-looted-jutland-war-graves-as-mod-fails-to-act/

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

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24 minutes ago, MS406france1940 said:

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

 

"The Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 (1986 c. 35) is an Act of Parliament in the United Kingdom which provides protection for the wreckage of military aircraft and designated military vessels. The Act provides for two types of protection: protected places and controlled sites. Military aircraft are automatically protected but vessels have to be specifically designated. The primary reason for designation is to protect as a 'war grave' the last resting place of UK servicemen (or other nationals); however, the Act does not require the loss of the vessel to have occurred during war.

There have been six statutory instruments designating wrecks under the Act, in 2002(amended 2003), 2006, 2008, 2009, 2012 and 2017.  Twelve wrecks are designated as controlled sites, on which diving is banned. These twelve vessels (including one German submarine), all lost on military service, provide a small representative sample of all such vessels. All other vessels that meet the criteria of the act are subject to a rolling programme of assessment and those that meet the criteria will be designated as protected places. The order that is currently in force, since March 2017, designates 79 wrecks as protected places. This means that diving is allowed but divers must follow the rule of look, don't touch.

 

The law concerning protected places applies anywhere in the world, but in practice, outside the UK, the sanctions can only be enforced against UK citizens, UK flagged ships, or vessels landing in the UK, unless backed by local legislation. " - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Military_Remains_Act_1986

 

"Jurisdiction
In Australia, the Office of Australian War Graves controls the maintenance of war cemeteries, plots, individual graves, post-war commemorations and battle exploit memorials.

In the Commonwealth of Nations, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission is responsible for the commemoration of 1.7 million deceased Commonwealth military service members at over 23,000 separate burial sites in 153 countries. It operates through the financial support of six member states (United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and South Africa).

In Spain, war graves are protected by the Law 60/1962.

In the United Kingdom, 67 ship wrecks and all underwater military aircraft are "protected places" under the Protection of Military Remains Act 1986 which imposes restrictions on their exploration and marine salvage.

In the United States, war graves are managed within the United States National Cemetery System." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_grave

Edited by Royeaux

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21 minutes ago, MS406france1940 said:

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

Having laws and enforcing them are two different things.

I'm all for if illegal salvagers if caught, getting sunk on the spot, and left to the local wildlife and/or weather..

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1 hour ago, MS406france1940 said:

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

The articles prove that the Jutland wrecks are fair game for illegal salvage as well, considering a Dutch company was caught taking stuff from the wrecks, most notably HMS Queen Mary.

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On 2/10/2019 at 3:06 PM, MS406france1940 said:

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

When most of these protection laws were created, most of the ships final resting place were, for the most part, unknown. Those that were known, were either in places were protection can be easily done, such as Royal Oak in Scapa Flow. Or even in the deeper parts of the ocean.

 

The problem is time and technology do not stand still. While deep diving subs have now been around for nearly 50 years, it has only been in the 90s were this technology was becoming more common place and not just the realm of governments and their Navies.

Look at the Titanic. At the time of her discovery, Dr Ballard had thought that the depths would protect her, and didn't even think about filing for the salvage rights. He regrets that now as her wreck has been fairly well picked over, and many have now left their mark on the wreck in the form of plaques and damage from landing on her decks, to bumping into her rusted hull and damaging her further. Her crows nest collapsed after on sub removed the famous (or infamous) ice bell.

 

We ourselves are really a danger to these ships. In our quest to 'know' what happened to them, we actively seek them out. We mark their locations, not realizing that we are simply marking them for an unscrupulous company to come and claim the metal from them. Let's face it, not every ship sank in an area that is unreachable, nor in a sea of a country that could control and protect the area. Even those we feel are safe are not truly, for there is always the chance of a ship moving in the dark of night to plunder the remains of a once proud vessel, only to be gone by daylight.

The ocean is vast, and trying to protect/monitor many sites is a massive undertaking, that quite simply no country truly has the resources to do 24/7/365.

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On 2/10/2019 at 3:06 PM, MS406france1940 said:

Well, I'm sad now:Smile_sad: Aren't there any laws protecting them as historical sites? And at least the Jutland wrecks most be war cemeteries, I'm sure those are protected. 

Problem is illegal salvers and pot hunter simply ignore them, or bend the rules just enough that they can say what they were doing was perfectly legal, it's not just shipwrecks a few years ago people stole the Abet Macht Frie Sign from Auschwitz because a private collector paid them for it.

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