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WizardFerret

Why the CV nerf sucks (CVs are not overpowered)

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I recently saw a video where someone in the Hakuryu managed to get consistent very high damage with torpedo bombers alone. 

Seen here, this gave me hope that CVs are not completely useless now and Hakuryu could still do some great damage, so I got it on the public test (once the nerf came out) and my god what a mess.

1. The aim sight. Probably the biggest issue here alongside the catastrophe that is AA, apparently in a situation where they encourage you to swerve around to minimize AA damage, now you cannot even move slightly without the aim sight becoming larger than the map. The spreads are just so horrible now, and the arming time of the torpedoes makes it worse. You will have to drop from miles away where the enemy ship can easily dodge or else just have them bump uselessly into the hull. I don't know why anyone thought this was a good idea.

2. The AA power. Anyone who thinks the AA is underpowered is being dishonest, you cannot even go after a single cruiser, let alone a group of ships, without your squadron being wiped out or severely damaged very quickly. Moving around doesn't even help much, and just worsens your aim. Even destroyers can seriously hurt your squadrons now, and it's not limited to just the good AA ships. Tier 8s, and ships like Yamato known for being CV magnets can really mow down everything in your squadron, and you will only get about one attack run in before the squadron is useless. Honestly a good decrease in AA power would go a long way here. Because currently your squadron is being blown up just from enemy AA looking at them.

3. Restoration time. It's not like the above is compensated for by being able to rapidly send more planes into battle. Planes are destroyed so easily that torpedo bombers will take forever to fully replenish.

4. But what about rockets and dive bombers? Rockets can be quite nice for setting fires, but honestly you aren't gonna get very much long term damage from either. Bombs are too inconsistent and torpedoes have now been made obsolete. 

5. "You're just not playing them right" I do not believe the CV should be a ship so difficult that only unicums and effectively play it, for the above reasons, it takes a whole lot of skill to make those attack runs work, which is uncommon. I am no new player, I had lots of experience with the main line Japanese cvs before the rework and have a couple tier tens.

6. People whining about CVs being "overpowered" Look, just because some rockets are hurting or spotting your destroyer or fragile British cruiser doesn't mean the CV is a huge threat to the whole team. As I said, any ship with any kind of competent AA is gonna punish those squadrons hard before they can do any real damage. If people would not stop complaining about the new carriers and actually realize they could be a good ship class if they stopped nerfing them to hell, it would be a much funner class to play now.

 

 

Am I asking for CVs to be powerhouses with no real threat to them, absolutely not. But I just want these few issues to be fixed so they can just be more enjoyable ships to play. They probably shouldn't be as good as in that video, but they should at least be comfortable and competent enough that a decent player could get 100-200k damage per game and maybe even more in the rare amazing game. I hope the coming patches can address these issues and finally restore balance to the carriers.

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It is obvious that after the hotfix, AA needs nerfs and CV needs buffs. That is undeniable. That being said however, its week 2 of the scheduled 2 month balancing process. This will take time, making a fuss over it now is preemptive.

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I saw a few chicken foot dispersions on CV torp drops.  They'll get it worked out but I hear you. 

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10 minutes ago, Kebobstuzov said:

It is obvious that after the hotfix, AA needs nerfs and CV needs buffs. That is undeniable. That being said however, its week 2 of the scheduled 2 month balancing process. This will take time, making a fuss over it now is preemptive.

I realize that. I am just pointing it out as to encourage the right changes more

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I can see small tweaks to be done, but this went far overboard.  Just played a few rounds and the biggest issue is my T8 now loses all the planes before I get anywhere near the T10's because the "dodging the flak" is [edited] and there's no saving them with the "F" button anymore when I'm getting shredded by the overpowered AA on higher tier ships (maybe stop uptiering CV's all the freaking time!!!).  So now I can get deplaned in the first 5 minutes and become useless, since it takes forever to replenish my squadrons.  I can't drop in from afar in my torp bombers now because if I maneuver to adjust for a turning ship, my torps actually spread in a V the size of a T10BB...I just don't think the T8 CV's were overpowered to begin with, and now they are just unplayable. 

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hi.

consider myself a BB main, and after 8.0 played a couple days battles in the training room, and a half dozen battles in coop in CVs (ryujo). ended up near the middle of my team, did ok damage, spotted some, it was fun.

just now I played a few more coop battles in the ryujo,  8.1

before I go any further, I should probably tell you I LOVE shooting down planes, and sinking CVs when they are in the battle, prior to 8.0 and now. they actually required some attention after 8.0 prior to 8.1. now they are back to mosquitos and dodge. I have most of my CA/CVs set up for AA, and consider CVs cannon fodder. I largely don't care about their feelings, so when I do run into a super-unicum CV player that wipes out the green team, I am appreciative of the skill level. that said, little or no pity for CV players, because I started out an IJN torp DD main.

8.1 renders them right back into stat padding fodder again. 1st battle, I was unable to get close to anything same or higher tier without 'squadron destroyed.' owie!! 726 pts, low score on team. :o(

later, I did much better, was high tier. 25 missles fired, 5 hits, 4 torps fired, 4 hits, 12 bombs dropped, 4 hits, total 20k damage. low score on the team again. spotted the DD and hit it with missiles. no 3rd runs, squadron destroyed.

it's possible the skill floor is even higher now than before 8.1??

I almost (really close) feel a bit for the CV players... mine is happily back in mothballs. 

must add: BB players were playing as a team for the AA bubble the last couple battles in random tues and wed evening. NEVER thought I would see that in random, ever. so there's that.

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CV's were OP in 8.0 by a huge margin when you factored in the neutered AA. They had nothing to fear even from AA powerhouse ships. I think a lot of CV players got a taste of that OP power and now don't want to give it up. Try and put yourself in the shoes of the other 3 classes that had no defense against you during last week. If AA is truly swung so far the other way with this hotfix that CV players can no longer do anything well you know how the other players felt. It's your turn to wait out the next hotfix and suck it up as you all told everyone else. 

I am not so sure any of the 8.0.1 nerfs to CV's themselves should be altered however. If I were WG I would just cut back the AA a little if it is truly wiping all planes out before even 1 drop can happen and see how that goes. From all the complaints I have read now from the CV side the AA seems to be the only real issue; the rest seems more like whining because it made playing them a little harder (sorry for that sounding offensive - not meant to be - more just an observation).

AA seems to be the biggest single issue so far with this rework. Maybe that needs to be fixed before the rest can be. One week it is too weak and the next it is too strong. Get AA to that middle ground then address things with CV's and tweak the AA a bit if needed to accommodate those changes. I don't think the CV's can be balanced properly until AA is more balanced. The CV balance feeds off AA balance IMO.

In the end, CV's have to pay the price for attacking AA powerhouse ships and/or ships that group up. It is no different for them than it is the other 3 classes who have to pick and choose when to fight. Week 1 of 8.0 this did not apply. Any ship no matter it's AA and/or build was easy fodder for CV's even when grouped. CV players may love that but it can not stand. CV player have to face the same risk/reward as the other 3 ship classes.

A CV should not be able to make it's 3 full attack runs (shouldn't be able to do 3 anyway frankly) and not take losses (or barely be scratched) even against grouped ships and AA powerhouse ships like we saw in 8.0. They should have to pay the price for an attack vs a group of ships or an AA powerhouse ship. Maybe 1 run and so beat up you have to F back to CV with the occasional full squad loss. That is not unfair to them. That is just the playing field being leveled and CV players having to decide if an attack is worth it just as the other ships must do.

When a player has an AA powerhouse ship and invests the resources to build that AA it SHOULD be a big problem to any CV who attacks it. A no flay zone so to speak. That should not be changed. But a CV who knows this and avoids that ship (at least until later in game when HE has reduced the AA power) and who goes after ships with weak AA should be able to get some attacks in and be rewarded for the right choice too.

 AdC0ljq.jpg

 

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Not OP?????? Where were you last week ?????

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10 hours ago, The_Real_1hit said:

I can see small tweaks to be done, but this went far overboard.  Just played a few rounds and the biggest issue is my T8 now loses all the planes before I get anywhere near the T10's because the "dodging the flak" is [edited] and there's no saving them with the "F" button anymore when I'm getting shredded by the overpowered AA on higher tier ships (maybe stop uptiering CV's all the freaking time!!!).  So now I can get deplaned in the first 5 minutes and become useless, since it takes forever to replenish my squadrons.  I can't drop in from afar in my torp bombers now because if I maneuver to adjust for a turning ship, my torps actually spread in a V the size of a T10BB...I just don't think the T8 CV's were overpowered to begin with, and now they are just unplayable. 

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11 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

CV's were OP in 8.0 by a huge margin when you factored in the neutered AA. They had nothing to fear even from AA powerhouse ships. I think a lot of CV players got a taste of that OP power and now don't want to give it up. Try and put yourself in the shoes of the other 3 classes that had no defense against you during last week. If AA is truly swung so far the other way with this hotfix that CV players can no longer do anything well you know how the other players felt. It's your turn to wait out the next hotfix and suck it up as you all told everyone else. 

I am not so sure any of the 8.0.1 nerfs to CV's themselves should be altered however. If I were WG I would just cut back the AA a little if it is truly wiping all planes out before even 1 drop can happen and see how that goes. From all the complaints I have read now from the CV side the AA seems to be the only real issue; the rest seems more like whining because it made playing them a little harder (sorry for that sounding offensive - not meant to be - more just an observation).

AA seems to be the biggest single issue so far with this rework. Maybe that needs to be fixed before the rest can be. One week it is too weak and the next it is too strong. Get AA to that middle ground then address things with CV's and tweak the AA a bit if needed to accommodate those changes. I don't think the CV's can be balanced properly until AA is more balanced. The CV balance feeds off AA balance IMO.

In the end, CV's have to pay the price for attacking AA powerhouse ships and/or ships that group up. It is no different for them than it is the other 3 classes who have to pick and choose when to fight. Week 1 of 8.0 this did not apply. Any ship no matter it's AA and/or build was easy fodder for CV's even when grouped. CV players may love that but it can not stand. CV player have to face the same risk/reward as the other 3 ship classes.

A CV should not be able to make it's 3 full attack runs (shouldn't be able to do 3 anyway frankly) and not take losses (or barely be scratched) even against grouped ships and AA powerhouse ships like we saw in 8.0. They should have to pay the price for an attack vs a group of ships or an AA powerhouse ship. Maybe 1 run and so beat up you have to F back to CV with the occasional full squad loss. That is not unfair to them. That is just the playing field being leveled and CV players having to decide if an attack is worth it just as the other ships must do.

When a player has an AA powerhouse ship and invests the resources to build that AA it SHOULD be a big problem to any CV who attacks it. A no flay zone so to speak. That should not be changed. But a CV who knows this and avoids that ship (at least until later in game when HE has reduced the AA power) and who goes after ships with weak AA should be able to get some attacks in and be rewarded for the right choice too.

 AdC0ljq.jpg

 

I see what you mean, but nerfing CVs hard and buffing AA hard is not the answer. Carriers should be able to do higher damage more consistently in battles without requiring extreme unicum skill. And right now, AA powerhouse ships and groups of ships absolutely murder squadrons, and it seems like every ship is an AA powerhouse, any type of cruiser or battleship shreds planes. And ships are almost always gonna be in groups. AA needs to really be toned down, so does the aiming of torpedoes.

Edited by WizardFerret

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On 2/9/2019 at 1:29 AM, AdmiralThunder said:

CV's were OP in 8.0 by a huge margin when you factored in the neutered AA. They had nothing to fear even from AA powerhouse ships. I think a lot of CV players got a taste of that OP power and now don't want to give it up. Try and put yourself in the shoes of the other 3 classes that had no defense against you during last week. If AA is truly swung so far the other way with this hotfix that CV players can no longer do anything well you know how the other players felt. It's your turn to wait out the next hotfix and suck it up as you all told everyone else. 

I am not so sure any of the 8.0.1 nerfs to CV's themselves should be altered however. If I were WG I would just cut back the AA a little if it is truly wiping all planes out before even 1 drop can happen and see how that goes. From all the complaints I have read now from the CV side the AA seems to be the only real issue; the rest seems more like whining because it made playing them a little harder (sorry for that sounding offensive - not meant to be - more just an observation).

AA seems to be the biggest single issue so far with this rework. Maybe that needs to be fixed before the rest can be. One week it is too weak and the next it is too strong. Get AA to that middle ground then address things with CV's and tweak the AA a bit if needed to accommodate those changes. I don't think the CV's can be balanced properly until AA is more balanced. The CV balance feeds off AA balance IMO.

In the end, CV's have to pay the price for attacking AA powerhouse ships and/or ships that group up. It is no different for them than it is the other 3 classes who have to pick and choose when to fight. Week 1 of 8.0 this did not apply. Any ship no matter it's AA and/or build was easy fodder for CV's even when grouped. CV players may love that but it can not stand. CV player have to face the same risk/reward as the other 3 ship classes.

A CV should not be able to make it's 3 full attack runs (shouldn't be able to do 3 anyway frankly) and not take losses (or barely be scratched) even against grouped ships and AA powerhouse ships like we saw in 8.0. They should have to pay the price for an attack vs a group of ships or an AA powerhouse ship. Maybe 1 run and so beat up you have to F back to CV with the occasional full squad loss. That is not unfair to them. That is just the playing field being leveled and CV players having to decide if an attack is worth it just as the other ships must do.

When a player has an AA powerhouse ship and invests the resources to build that AA it SHOULD be a big problem to any CV who attacks it. A no flay zone so to speak. That should not be changed. But a CV who knows this and avoids that ship (at least until later in game when HE has reduced the AA power) and who goes after ships with weak AA should be able to get some attacks in and be rewarded for the right choice too.

 AdC0ljq.jpg

 

The problem is that with this whole stupid flak mechanic, what is considered a AA powerhouse, is changed. Yes a CV should not be able to get anywhere near a group of top tier cruisers with full AA spec, but a CV SHOULD be able to wipe the floor with a lone BB who goes off on his lonesome and travels in straight lines. But you can't. Also flak is not that easy to dodge, since not only does it through your aim off for your strike run, but also, since only 6 flak bursts appear in the "flak wall", on something like a Monty which has 20 flak bursts, the other 14 have to go somewhere. I think if the remove the flak bursts and make AA constant DPS, then i would be far more intuitive for CVs and then CVs would have it easier.

Also remember that the DDs complaining about CV with rockets, is ONLY because the CVs can go near anything else without getting their planes wrecked. Nerf BB AA and then the DDs will have it easier too

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CV should be attacking BB but cant right now because even lone BB AA is way overpowered. Also a secondary issue is the MM for CV right now for instance the t6 CV has an MM of +2,0 but more often then not is +2,+1 and rarely fights at its tier. 

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Hakkryu "CV's" was op in 0.8.0

CV's become useless in .8.1~.3

Now the cvs is just... "meh", you can farm dot dmg on BB's but its only that, you need sometimes luck to kill a bb (or just secure the kill when they are with low hp). Hit a dd with usn bombs is ok when you hit... but still "meh", 3~10k dmg is soo much rng.

 

Its NOTHING compared to before this terrible 0.8.0 patch how destroy the cvs. ("but but but i see this video and..." Hak was broken, they fix that nerfed to useless.)

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8 hours ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

The problem is that with this whole stupid flak mechanic, what is considered a AA powerhouse, is changed. Yes a CV should not be able to get anywhere near a group of top tier cruisers with full AA spec, but a CV SHOULD be able to wipe the floor with a lone BB who goes off on his lonesome and travels in straight lines. But you can't. Also flak is not that easy to dodge, since not only does it through your aim off for your strike run, but also, since only 6 flak bursts appear in the "flak wall", on something like a Monty which has 20 flak bursts, the other 14 have to go somewhere. I think if the remove the flak bursts and make AA constant DPS, then i would be far more intuitive for CVs and then CVs would have it easier.

Also remember that the DDs complaining about CV with rockets, is ONLY because the CVs can go near anything else without getting their planes wrecked. Nerf BB AA and then the DDs will have it easier too

Why should BB's have to take an AA nerf for DD's and why should only Cruisers have good AA?

You do realize some of the BB's in this game have some of the best AA. Or did anyway. US BB's had AA as their "gimmick".  Even if a BB player is NOT a back line camper they will probably end up alone as they won't have the speed (usually) to keep up and the DD/Cruisers all abandon them at the 1st sign of red anyway. BB's need to fend for themselves.

I play all lines but CV. Not anti DD or anti Cruiser or even pro BB. Not even anti CV although I absolutely hate what WG did to things with this rework. Just what it is.

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:18 PM, WizardFerret said:

Am I asking for CVs to be powerhouses with no real threat to them, absolutely not. But I just want these few issues to be fixed so they can just be more enjoyable ships to play. They probably shouldn't be as good as in that video, but they should at least be comfortable and competent enough that a decent player could get 100-200k damage per game and maybe even more in the rare amazing game. I hope the coming patches can address these issues and finally restore balance to the carriers.

100-200k per battle?  That is just, I want to say greedy, but that isn't quite the correct word.  That goal seems overly generous to me, even at Tier X and never mind Tier IV.  I would say 50-150K would be a more 'balanced' damage goal, similar to the other capital ship in the game for a 'decent player' whoever that is.

8 hours ago, Billy_The_Dog said:

Also remember that the DDs complaining about CV with rockets, is ONLY because the CVs can go near anything else without getting their planes wrecked. Nerf BB AA and then the DDs will have it easier too

This reasoning, just wow.  "If you don't want me to bully you, help me go bully someone else."

The game is what it is and whatever Wargaming makes it.  If you enjoy it, play.  If you don't enjoy it, don't play.  I for one have stopped playing Tier VIII and fight fewer and fewer Random battles because of what all has happened this year.  I don't come here to get frustrated, so I don't do the things that cause frustration(or spend money on it).  Just like I don't go to stores that don't have what I want or demand a car maker change a car so I can enjoy driving it more.

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