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JonnyFreedom

German line has an Identity crisis.

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Brawling in this game is trash with all the HE, torpedo spam and lack of secondary range.  Guns that lack any accuracy for a BB is already a thing and then you tack on German (LOLZ DISPERSION IS GAME PLAY FEATURE!!!!).  In trade you can get weak secondaries that you have to pay out the teeth to have.  You give up so much stuff that BBs need on the captain tree so your secondaries have a chance to do damage. It doesn't even have amazing armor to make up for the lack of accuracy.  I literally can wake up and pee straighter after a long night of raunchy love making than this line can shoot on it's best day.  Either make secondaries not suck complete donkey or give the main guns more accuracy and another silo.  Secondaries should be adding more damage considering the amount of tech tree and modules you have to give up.  Yes I am sure you can post pictures of some awesome secondaries games (because they do exist) but this line is MEME worthy at best.  

It is time to take a look at the German line and figure out how to make secondaries better, make their armor more meaningful, give them another gun silo or make their guns shoot straighter.  I would also suggest starting the secondary builds much earlier than T8.  Give this line a unique identity and not this exp pinata for cruisers to set on fire and farm exp on.

Edited by JonnyFreedom
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JPN bbs have a higher identity crisis then german bbs atm

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4 minutes ago, MajorRenegade said:

JPN bbs have a higher identity crisis then german bbs atm

How so?  They have always been snipers and still are.

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Just now, JonnyFreedom said:

How so?  They have always been snipers and still are.

Yamato was known for it secondary guns, till Germans bbs came along....

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6 hours ago, MajorRenegade said:

Yamato was known for it secondary guns, till Germans bbs came along....

That doesn't constitute as having an identity crisis. 

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11 hours ago, MajorRenegade said:

JPN bbs have a higher identity crisis then german bbs atm

Not sure why the OP would be concerned since he's talking about the German BBs.  IJN BBs might have issues, but that doesn't mean the German ones don't.

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German BB's become the weakest T8+ IMO due to meta shift @ high tiers. T7 and below I do very well in both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. Also, German BB's rule Co-op.

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Hey

As a German main myself; I think the German ships for the most part are in a decent position except for slightly weaker AA than many, but have the issue of that RNG garbage dispersion.  If the dispersion was less of a factor, inline with many others, then they would be fine.  Tier 8 is a transition and the Bismarck/Tirpitz are both very good at T8, but struggle more than some when up-tiered, due to 8 guns that struggle to pen higher tiers.  The T9 FDG struggles as well, and again it's the dispersion that lets it down, it offers very little improvement over the Bismarck.  The GK is a great boat BUT those wonky dispersion of the guns struggle but fortunately she has 12, she can't dodge torps but a great HP, very good armor, and good secondaries.  The only thing the German ships need is an across the board improvement in dispersion.  One last point:  The Gneisenau deserves an increase in reload due to the simple fact she has only 6 guns and that crappy German dispersion, everything else is very good.  

 

Pete

P.S.  Why does Wargaming hamper all German BB's and Cruisers (except Graf Spee) with only 6km Torps?  You have buffed the ranges on Zao and others, why not at least increase the T8 - T10 boats to the same 8 km that Graf Spee has, or make then competitive with 10km with their peers.

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On 2/11/2019 at 5:15 PM, sasquatch_research said:

P.S.  Why does Wargaming hamper all German BB's and Cruisers (except Graf Spee) with only 6km Torps?  You have buffed the ranges on Zao and others, why not at least increase the T8 - T10 boats to the same 8 km that Graf Spee has, or make then competitive with 10km with their peers.

Yeah, they should give them the same torps the American  T8+ BBs & Cruisers have!:Smile_teethhappy:

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Yeah, they should give them the same torps the American  T8+ BBs & Cruisers have!:Smile_teethhappy:

Hey

This was about the German line, can you stay on topic.  If you want to discuss the Americans, there is a place to post that.

 

Pete

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31 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey 

This was about the German line, can you stay on topic.  If you want to discuss the Americans, there is a place to post that.

Just pointing out that even if you have crap torps, they are still better than what some of the competition has.

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5 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Just pointing out that even if you have crap torps, they are still better than what some of the competition has.

Hey

Fair enough; although a buff of 2km would not make them OP in any way.

 

Pete

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German bbs are known fo having turtleack armor which makes them virtually uncitadelable at close to medium ranges. They also have top armor that shatters HE shells and lets you close the distance. Use islands for cover on the way to your target and angle. If you arent having a good time, try the yamato and have fun getting slammed dunked at [edited] angles. German bbs wont let that happen at least :)

 

 

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So in addition to above's comment with regards to the turtleback, putting an armorbelt well below the waterline making it almost impossible to citadel outside of plunging fire from range, German BB secondaries enjoy the German 1/4 pen mechanic on their 150mm and 128mm secondaries (primaries for some ships). They have Hydro to allow them to get in close starting at T8, they enjoy quick turret traverse. They are designed to get in closer than 10 km.  It's also why you see heavier deck armor to shatter HE shells (pretty sure GK has 50mm of deck armor).  Hydro keeps you aware of the torps and German AP also has a higher krupp value when doing the penetration calculation if i remember right. Basically, you can't obviously yolo charge a cap without proper support, but WITH that support, you just bulldoze in and take the punishment while your allies pick off the reds.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:14 PM, JonnyFreedom said:

Brawling in this game is trash with all the HE, torpedo spam and lack of secondary range.  Guns that lack any accuracy for a BB is already a thing and then you tack on German (LOLZ DISPERSION IS GAME PLAY FEATURE!!!!).  In trade you can get weak secondaries that you have to pay out the teeth to have.  You give up so much stuff that BBs need on the captain tree so your secondaries have a chance to do damage. It doesn't even have amazing armor to make up for the lack of accuracy.  I literally can wake up and pee straighter after a long night of raunchy love making than this line can shoot on it's best day.  Either make secondaries not suck complete donkey or give the main guns more accuracy and another silo.  Secondaries should be adding more damage considering the amount of tech tree and modules you have to give up.  Yes I am sure you can post pictures of some awesome secondaries games (because they do exist) but this line is MEME worthy at best.  

It is time to take a look at the German line and figure out how to make secondaries better, make their armor more meaningful, give them another gun silo or make their guns shoot straighter.  I would also suggest starting the secondary builds much earlier than T8.  Give this line a unique identity and not this exp pinata for cruisers to set on fire and farm exp on.

two things are required to fix the German BB line:

The first one is to buff the accuracy on the secondaries or the main batteries. With either one of these they will be able to do relevant damage but having none you have to close the gap to start being reliable and you know how much the other team loves that.  Give them the accuracy of the Massachusetts on the secondaries or buff the main batteries to a descent level.

The second thing that requires fixing is the hull profile, let me explain:

Most of the BB in game have a "flat flank", past the bow of the ship the belt armor of those ships is flat making angling very easy, once you are in the optimal position shells will simply bounce on the belt and live the rest of their life somewhere else. In the case of the Germans BB however, they are curved. Ever wondered how you could weather BB shells in a NC but always take pen damage in a Bismark no matter how you angle yourself? This is the curve fault!  That damn arcing belt, no matter how you angle will always have a section that will be more exposed to the ship you are trying to angle against, if your opponent knows how to shoot well there isnt much you can do against that and it is more noticeable when you are against ships with improved penetration values like the Des Moines. It is easier to bounce incoming fire in a Gascogne or Massachusettes that both have thinner side armor ( Gascogne is covered in 32mm for crying out loud) and yet the Germans are supposed to be the tanky ones, that curved hull profile is a curse and the hit boxes require so work.

 

TL:DR

Accuracy buff on secondaries (Massachusetts level) or accuracy buff on primaries.

Fixing the hitboxe on the German BB because that curved hull is preventing from angling properly.

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On 3/1/2019 at 11:24 PM, Arvenxx said:

So in addition to above's comment with regards to the turtleback, putting an armorbelt well below the waterline making it almost impossible to citadel outside of plunging fire from range, German BB secondaries enjoy the German 1/4 pen mechanic on their 150mm and 128mm secondaries (primaries for some ships). They have Hydro to allow them to get in close starting at T8, they enjoy quick turret traverse. They are designed to get in closer than 10 km.  It's also why you see heavier deck armor to shatter HE shells (pretty sure GK has 50mm of deck armor).  Hydro keeps you aware of the torps and German AP also has a higher krupp value when doing the penetration calculation if i remember right. Basically, you can't obviously yolo charge a cap without proper support, but WITH that support, you just bulldoze in and take the punishment while your allies pick off the reds.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

Turtleback armor is preventing citadels yes but also grantee to eat penetration damage no matter what you do. It is far better to have weaker belt armor and a citadel underwater at close range than a turtleback because shells will overpen and citadel underwater is protected by water....

Not all secondaries are under the 1/4 pen HE rule, in fact the most common one, the 105mm is following the 1/6 he pen rule. only the FDG got a buff making its 105mm follow the 1/4 rule. 128mm is available on only 2 ships. That means only the 155mm secondary is the only viable secondary source of damage common to all German BB, all those sporting the useless 105mm got the short straw.

The deck and side are indeed IFHE proof but the superstructure is so massive i would be surprised if you didnt score any damage at all and it takes a lot of hp before it saturates.

Not all of them got Hydro, in fact only half of the ships got it, Bismark, FDG, GK, so that means the Sharnhorst, Gneisenau and Tirpitz cant rely on it.

German Krupp value is actually is middle of the road depending on the ship and the tier : https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/42964-wows-comparison-sheets/

It is a bit outdated but the krupp values didnt change since so its good to get the general idea. The fascinating thing is the French 380mm AP got a Krupp of 2347 while the german got 2450 and yet the German shells are prone to shatter while i can citadel a Yamato at max range (22km+) through its belt in a Gascogne....

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On 2/7/2019 at 11:14 PM, JonnyFreedom said:

It is time to take a look at the German line and figure out how to make secondaries better, make their armor more meaningful, give them another gun silo or make their guns shoot straighter.  I would also suggest starting the secondary builds much earlier than T8.  Give this line a unique identity and not this exp pinata for cruisers to set on fire and farm exp on.

Hey Komrade, haven't you heard about the Stronk Ruskie BBs?  /sarcasm

Sadly, once the VMF BBs are released, they will make the KM ones look even more like a giant meme.

(The typical accuracy of secondary battery is in the single digit percentage points. Unless you go "full" secondary build with modules and skills, that can improve accuracy to about 12~18%.
If RNGesus relay likes you you may see it above 20%, but that typically means that enemy BB made poor choices and decided to brawl you with their secondaries, etc.)

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On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 9:02 PM, Sammy_Small said:

Hey Komrade, haven't you heard about the Stronk Ruskie BBs?  /sarcasm

Sadly, once the VMF BBs are released, they will make the KM ones look even more like a giant meme.

(The typical accuracy of secondary battery is in the single digit percentage points. Unless you go "full" secondary build with modules and skills, that can improve accuracy to about 12~18%.
If RNGesus relay likes you you may see it above 20%, but that typically means that enemy BB made poor choices and decided to brawl you with their secondaries, etc.)

Hey

No Russian bias on this game, eh, comrade.

 

Pete

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