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Excuse_Maker

The true core of the problem has not been fixed.

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Until we implement a system where CV MM is equal. This will be the same as before.

Red CV, fly's over our whole fleet....provides a working map of every ship on our team. Does he do any damage? No.

Green CV, immediately hits reverse like he did pre patch, sends his planes up the side and attacks whoever is the first ship he sees. (is he a bot? dunno)

Red team caps all caps due to vision. Green team reeling as they have no vision. 

 

Until we put baddies with baddies, and goodies with goodies concerning CV... this has been a waste of time. The ship is still to powerful based on spotting or lack of it.

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4 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

Until we implement a system where CV MM is equal. This will be the same as before.

Red CV, fly's over our whole fleet....provides a working map of every ship on our team. Does he do any damage? No.

Green CV, immediately hits reverse like he did pre patch, sends his planes up the side and attacks whoever is the first ship he sees. (is he a bot? dunno)

Red team caps all caps due to vision. Green team reeling as they have no vision. 

 

Until we put baddies with baddies, and goodies with goodies concerning CV... this has been a waste of time. The ship is still to powerful based on spotting or lack of it.

You don’t realize what you are asking.  Right now it’s easy to distinguish between better and worse CV players because the MM is random, so better players will influence the battle more and get higher win rates.  Skill based MM will attempt to balance things out, meaning better players will win less, and worse players will win more, over long number of battles the difference between better and worse players will not be detectable by MM anymore.  What will happen is that any player doing better than average will be singled out and put at disadvantage every game until he no longer does better than average.  So motivational!

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2 minutes ago, Ramsalot said:

You don’t realize what you are asking.  Right now it’s easy to distinguish between better and worse CV players because the MM is random, so better players will influence the battle more and get higher win rates.  Skill based MM will attempt to balance things out, meaning better players will win less, and worse players will win more, over long number of battles the difference between better and worse players will not be detectable by MM anymore.  What will happen is that any player doing better than average will be singled out and put at disadvantage every game until he no longer does better than average.  So motivational!

I get that, but, there lies a bigger problem. Who gets Tom Brady and who gets Ryan Leaf..... why bother playing once you know who has who.

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The spotting is a bit exaggerated (meaning much quicker) with the planes.    But, prior to the rework, and when we didn't see many CVs in the game, who had the job of spotting?     It was the DDs.

And have we ever seen a disparity in DD play?    Some would spot, some would do an end-run.  Some would sit in smoke.  And others would immediately rush the cap and be deleted.

The result was somewhat the same.   One side had a better "map" of where folks were, and the other side was groping in the dark.

That said, my first few games were a bit panicky, as I'd be spotted in 30 seconds.   WASD, WASD, WASD, only to realize I wasn't being targeted by other reds.  Didn't see the counter go up (unless of course, I was a lot closer).     

They can see the direction I'm heading in.   If it wasn't sound (meaning I might get caught alone), I'd adjust direction.

Some of the games, the planes would come back and respot me.   However, in most, the CV drivers found their targets and kinda focused on them.   In those cases, I might not see another plane until late in the match.

Now that WG has sledgehammered to the other extreme, with CVs losing their loadouts and AA much stronger, perhaps the CVs will go to a mid-map spotting approach.    We shall see.

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2 minutes ago, DiddleDum said:

The spotting is a bit exaggerated (meaning much quicker) with the planes.    But, prior to the rework, and when we didn't see many CVs in the game, who had the job of spotting?     It was the DDs.

And have we ever seen a disparity in DD play?    Some would spot, some would do an end-run.  Some would sit in smoke.  And others would immediately rush the cap and be deleted.

The result was somewhat the same.   One side had a better "map" of where folks were, and the other side was groping in the dark.

That said, my first few games were a bit panicky, as I'd be spotted in 30 seconds.   WASD, WASD, WASD, only to realize I wasn't being targeted by other reds.  Didn't see the counter go up (unless of course, I was a lot closer).     

They can see the direction I'm heading in.   If it wasn't sound (meaning I might get caught alone), I'd adjust direction.

Some of the games, the planes would come back and respot me.   However, in most, the CV drivers found their targets and kinda focused on them.   In those cases, I might not see another plane until late in the match.

Now that WG has sledgehammered to the other extreme, with CVs losing their loadouts and AA much stronger, perhaps the CVs will go to a mid-map spotting approach.    We shall see.

I'm with you.

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CV's should not be able to spot......PERIOD. They can attack what they see, they can leave last known position on the mini map for those smart enough to use that feature.... but to light up the entire enemy team is crazy. The next patch, radar has a delayed effect. This should be implemented for CV's as well, or something like it.

 

Its not like a plane can provide exact location information to his fleet at 200knts, 150 miles from his carrier...

The core of the problem has always been skill and spotting.

 

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3 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

CV's should not be able to spot......PERIOD. They can attack what they see, they can leave last known position on the mini map for those smart enough to use that feature.... but to light up the entire enemy team is crazy. The next patch, radar has a delayed effect. This should be implemented for CV's as well, or something like it.

 

Its not like a plane can provide exact location information to his fleet at 200knts, 150 miles from his carrier...

The core of the problem has always been skill and spotting.

 

For someone who by their profile could not have ever been in a match with a CV you sure complain about them a lot.

By the way most scouting in WWII was done by aircraft and they were actually pretty good at stating the last location and course.

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7 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

CV's should not be able to spot.

Considering that in real war experience most pilots couldn't distinguish friend from foe unless flying close enough to see the colours hoisted to the mast (and risking "collecting" a few pounds of explosive and shrapnel of the AA defense in case that were a foe), planes from a CV shouldn't spot. An icon in the minimap showing the position of the spotted ship should be the maximum amount of information the CV could hand his team.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

For someone who by their profile could not have ever been in a match with a CV you sure complain about them a lot.

By the way most scouting in WWII was done by aircraft and they were actually pretty good at stating the last location and course.

I am not complaining about them at all. I have 3 thousand dollars into this game and I am going to everything I can to make it good for everyone. Because of my passion (and booze) I was forced to make this account to protect my main.

Concerning your point, of course scouting was done... only to give the fleet an idea on where to go to intercept, not citadel them from 18km away. At those ranges, ships already knew where each other was/were.

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2 minutes ago, Brooklin82 said:

Considering that in real war experience most pilots couldn't distinguish friend from foe unless flying close enough to see the colours hoisted to the mast (and risking "collecting" a few pounds of explosive and shrapnel of the AA defense in case that were a foe), planes from a CV shouldn't spot. An icon in the minimap showing the position of the spotted ship should be the maximum amount of information the CV could hand his team.

See the source image

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3 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

I am not complaining about them at all. I have 3 thousand dollars into this game and I am going to everything I can to make it good for everyone. Because of my passion (and booze) I was forced to make this account to protect my main.

Concerning your point, of course scouting was done... only to give the fleet an idea on where to go to intercept, not citadel them from 18km away. At those ranges, ships already knew where each other was/were.

Yet you post from a reroll/alt account, why?

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Just now, BrushWolf said:

For someone who by their profile could not have ever been in a match with a CV you sure complain about them a lot.

By the way most scouting in WWII was done by aircraft and they were actually pretty good at stating the last location and course.

Weren't they specialty configured planes.... as in having a bulky radio for long distance transmissions to the carrier and not fit for much of anything else?
In which case... shouldn't CV's have a consumables for spotting, instead of it's current form?

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16 minutes ago, DiddleDum said:

The spotting is a bit exaggerated (meaning much quicker) with the planes.    But, prior to the rework, and when we didn't see many CVs in the game, who had the job of spotting?     It was the DDs.

And have we ever seen a disparity in DD play?    Some would spot, some would do an end-run.  Some would sit in smoke.  And others would immediately rush the cap and be deleted.

The result was somewhat the same.   One side had a better "map" of where folks were, and the other side was groping in the dark.

That said, my first few games were a bit panicky, as I'd be spotted in 30 seconds.   WASD, WASD, WASD, only to realize I wasn't being targeted by other reds.  Didn't see the counter go up (unless of course, I was a lot closer).     

They can see the direction I'm heading in.   If it wasn't sound (meaning I might get caught alone), I'd adjust direction.

Some of the games, the planes would come back and respot me.   However, in most, the CV drivers found their targets and kinda focused on them.   In those cases, I might not see another plane until late in the match.

Now that WG has sledgehammered to the other extreme, with CVs losing their loadouts and AA much stronger, perhaps the CVs will go to a mid-map spotting approach.    We shall see.

Actually, as I see it, the "core of the problem" is detection  !!  The maps are way to small for even one CV; let alone two or three with radar ships....  The maps are significantly too small.  With much larger maps, DD's have a chance and actually do their jobs without being spotted 100% of the time.   The same goes for CV's.....they need space.  Even with the still a bit messed up hot fix, the maps are simply too congested and that makes this game play so obtuse and condensed, even watching matches is terrible........

AA needs to be a reciprocal value to the aircraft's expected or possible damage...   The F key I hope is fixed and cv's must have only TO&E aircraft amounts....  Then, with larger maps, improved AA and CV's that are at least finite weapons, this game will thrive again.  And. we can get back to having tactics, roles and games that are more than First Person Shooting......

Many may disagree, but, think about it CV's historically:  the Brits (Bismark), also the IJN (HMS Repulse and the Prince of Wales) with terrible AA and then, about late 43, the Americans take on the IJN" carriers against carriers.  With large enough maps, this game could do that !!!

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

Yet you post from a reroll/alt account, why?

I thought I just explained it, but to be clear I have received a few strikes and wanted to be able to post without recourse. In my past I had taken on some influential players and posters and was knocked back by the man as I am not in the in crowd.

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12 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

By the way most scouting in WWII was done by aircraft and they were actually pretty good at stating the last location and course.

True, but they were notoriously bad at recognition.

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2 minutes ago, So_lt_Goes said:

True, but they were notoriously bad at recognition.

Some things like CV's and BB's stood out enough to be useful unless the scout was Mr Magoo. The true numbers could be wildly wrong but that those units were there was accurate.

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49 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

Until we implement a system where CV MM is equal. This will be the same as before.

Red CV, fly's over our whole fleet....provides a working map of every ship on our team. Does he do any damage? No.

Green CV, immediately hits reverse like he did pre patch, sends his planes up the side and attacks whoever is the first ship he sees. (is he a bot? dunno)

Red team caps all caps due to vision. Green team reeling as they have no vision. 

 

Until we put baddies with baddies, and goodies with goodies concerning CV... this has been a waste of time. The ship is still to powerful based on spotting or lack of it.

Skill based MM only works for a very short period of time. Then we are all back in the same MM together again.

WG will never go for skill based MM in randoms.

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48 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

Until we implement a system where CV MM is equal. This will be the same as before.

Red CV, fly's over our whole fleet....provides a working map of every ship on our team. Does he do any damage? No.

Green CV, immediately hits reverse like he did pre patch, sends his planes up the side and attacks whoever is the first ship he sees. (is he a bot? dunno)

Red team caps all caps due to vision. Green team reeling as they have no vision. 

 

Until we put baddies with baddies, and goodies with goodies concerning CV... this has been a waste of time. The ship is still to powerful based on spotting or lack of it.

You know that you can just replace CV with DD in the above and it would be exactly true as well, right? In fact, even more so since DDs are needed to cap as well since CVs can only spot.

But in general, players who don't take their team or winning conditions into consideration will often cost their team. It's not a CV only thing here. And CVs are generally MUCH LESS influential than they were pre-rework. Since, you know, one squad spotting instead of six.

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CVs cant do dmg anymore. - Done

CVs cant spot dd torps anymore. - Done

CVs cant spot anyone. - In progress, just cry more the wg will listen you, they doind that so far.

CVs become useless/cant impact the battle - In progress...

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3 minutes ago, paradat said:

Skill based MM only works for a very short period of time. Then we are all back in the same MM together again.

WG will never go for skill based MM in randoms.

I agree to a point. First, what we have now is beyond arcade silly. Period. A CV can spot the entire fleet in less than 1 minute, Heck, half of the ships haven't even loaded in yet.

The core of the CV issue is skill and spotting. When you got two equally bad or good CV's... the games were great. Any variation they are lopsided. You can easily have an afk ship and win... why? Spotting isn't involved. AFK CV....GG

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17 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Actually, as I see it, the "core of the problem" is detection  !!  The maps are way to small for even one CV; let alone two or three with radar ships....  The maps are significantly too small.  With much larger maps, DD's have a chance and actually do their jobs without being spotted 100% of the time.  

Agree with this.  And we pretty much know where most DDs head on any map.   While I never got out of T4 CVs, on the maps they offer, it's pretty obvious where they'll be headed.    And if they're not in their normal spot, they've headed back to the fleet ball.

And that's about as good as spotting them, as it keeps them from the caps.

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10 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

You know that you can just replace CV with DD in the above and it would be exactly true as well, right? 

No no and no...……………………………………………………………...NO

A DD doesn't sail at 200knts, a dd doesn't respawn and repeat every 24 seconds

 

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Just now, Excuse_Maker said:

I agree to a point. First, what we have now is beyond arcade silly. Period. A CV can spot the entire fleet in less than 1 minute, Heck, half of the ships haven't even loaded in yet.

The core of the CV issue is skill and spotting. When you got two equally bad or good CV's... the games were great. Any variation they are lopsided. You can easily have an afk ship and win... why? Spotting isn't involved. AFK CV....GG

Oh sorry thought your post was just about skill based MM.

Yeah the early spot by the CV is a major meta change. Makes the battle hot much earlier.

As far as the skill gap it is much more narrow that it was. The CV can not dominate the battle like it used too. A good CV commander vs a bad CV was almost a guaranteed win for the Good players team. Now it is not a guarantee at all.

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8 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Since, you know, one squad spotting instead of six.

Really? Not sure how many times my ONE squad has flown out onto a map and spotted around 75% of the Reds, first pass.

Just about the only thing I don’t see are destroyers, who’s air spotting range is so short I have no idea why players complain about being spotted in them...

... but maybe that’s just a T 10 thing.

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7 minutes ago, HyenaHiena said:

CVs cant do dmg anymore. - Done

CVs cant spot dd torps anymore. - Done

CVs cant spot anyone. - In progress, just cry more the wg will listen you, they doind that so far.

CVs become useless/cant impact the battle - In progress...

as 1/12th of a team, how much impact should they have?

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