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Hotfix 0.8.0.1. What did it Accomplish, and What did it Cause?

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I know it's only a few hours, but don't worry. I can already tell most things about it since changes were fairly minor in terms of scope. Also note this is only with tier 10 carriers, in battle tier 10 environment.

Goals:

1. Fix Hakuryu efficiency, primarily with the 4x12 torpedo bombers. I can say this was accomplished in a reasonable way without making them entirely useless. That is a good job from me. They can still land all 4 torps on an unwary target, and it is still possible to crossdrop, although at a significant cost to planes. More on that later.

2. F key Recall nerf. Planes now are visible for about 2-3 seconds longer. On it's own, this would have been a fine change. Maybe returning planes you'd lose 2-3. However, it also affects the planes that return after a strike, without use of F key. In conjunction with:

3. Moving damage from flak burst to continuous. With number 2&3 together, planes from strikes are pretty close to dead 100% most of the time, and most likely the planes from the rest of the squadron if you do not escape AA ranges. Right now, you can afford 1 strike on something, lose the planes from the strike and escape with whats left of the squadron(maybe), or try to strike twice and lose everything guaranteed against anything with decent AA that is alone. ALONE mind you, and since most random battles consist of deathballs currently, and will for probably ever, that's a 100% dead squad if you try to strike into it in any capacity, whether you get the strike off or not.

4. Give dive bombers super armor while 'diving'. Success here, honestly this is what the heal was actually for, but the armor should suffice for most of it. You're still going to get blown apart trying to bomb though.

 

All in all, the scales have flipped to be sure. A carrier can still cause harm and annoyance to some ships, but you can be guaranteed low reserves most of the match. That's how I had it going, and i'm fairly adept at the rework.

I think it should have been either F key recall nerf OR moving flak damage to continuous, not both. It's ended up in a double whammy for CV, where now they can't really do anything to avoid losing planes to a mechanic. I will say that again, a MECHANIC. I wouldn't have any problem losing planes if it was down the the skill of my opponent, they could kill a whole squad and I would accept it. I can outplay the ship and he can also outplay me, but right now the lowest skilled player can be just as effective with his Full AA minotaur as the best minotaur player in the world in terms of a threat to my planes. Most cv games in rework feel like i'm playing a 2-4 player game, because I am literally not playing WITH the ships i'm striking with my planes, i'm playing with the mechanic of AA, which just feels like a bot. At best I have some minor interaction with the enemy cv spawned fighters, so 2-4 player.

I really believe taking the time to develop a mostly player controlled AA system would really go a long way to actually give carriers a home in wows. Until that time, they will always be playing a different game than everyone else, and it's just not right.

Edited by Pulicat
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I’m seeing a lot of CV tears, so it’s on the right track.

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So do you think that the stated goal of making CVS accessible and fun for players of all skill levels is accomplished? Or will less skilled players find it hard to do anything useful with them?

Edited by Ducky_shot
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Coming from a proficient WOWS player who is very well known for his opposition/dislike of CVs in WOWS, Pulicat's (fair and considered) assessment should be taken very seriously. +1.

As i commented yesterday, this hotfix looked rather over the top, we have confirmed in game, that it is indeed so.

giphy.gif

14 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

I really believe taking the time to develop a mostly player controlled AA system would really go a long way to actually give carriers a home in wows. Until that time, they will always be playing a different game than everyone else, and it's just not right.

this, and removing Carriers from the game, but leaving Squadrons (which spawn just like ships at start of battle)/

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3 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

So do you think that the stated goal of making CVS accessible and fun for players of all skill levels is accomplished? Or will less skilled players find it hard to do anything useful with them?

CV is already fine for accessibility. That isn't the issue. The problem is in the interactions between ships and planes being mostly automated. 

Less skilled players already find anything hard to do useful stuff with what they play, that's why they are on the low end. Same as a highly skilled player will be on the top end. Haku was probably the only non WiP thing that was ridiculously overpowered.

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12 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

I really believe taking the time to develop a mostly player controlled AA system would really go a long way to actually give carriers a home in wows. Until that time, they will always be playing a different game than everyone else, and it's just not right.

This.  The difficulty being, how do you construct a player-controlled AA system when that player also needs to be driving their ship, firing their surface-to-surface weaponry, and angling against/dodging fire from as many as half a dozen other ships and your aircraft?  Or at least, one that could be effectively used by someone other than a super-unicum player?

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Just now, Harv72b said:

This.  The difficulty being, how do you construct a player-controlled AA system when that player also needs to be driving their ship, firing their surface-to-surface weaponry, and angling against/dodging fire from as many as half a dozen other ships and your aircraft?  Or at least, one that could be effectively used by someone other than a super-unicum player?

So, in a previous post I mentioned taking the torpedo aiming interface and translating that to AA control, where the grey indicator would denote plane lead, the torpedo aiming cone would be AA focus in which you could have wide at lower damage or narrow at higher damage, and then the larger cone for the area in which you could focus. Having the AA aim lock whenever you switch off would allow you to shoot something else, or fire torps etc, or you could wide focus if other things were more important. This is basically a more precise and controlled version of the sector system.

Using the torp interface, it would be pretty easy for people to understand and use. And if you are in a tight spot as in dodging fire from half a dozen ships, i mean you are already overloaded in terms of your engagement. You would have to make sacrifices in that situation whether there were planes or not, so there's no reason you should still be 100% effective against the planes without even trying.

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22 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

I’m seeing a lot of CV tears, so it’s on the right track.

You forgot the main reason for CV rework.

 

You forgot they need give to players give some ability to do DMG, what will be reason play any class without substantial dmg.

Nobody complains when BB make Kraken.

Nobody complains when DD make Kraken

Nobody complains when cruiser make Kraken

Cv makes Kraken it must be a hot fix.

 

So what will happen? nothing special people stop play CV again. That's it :D 

 

My case: 8.0. T4 - about 30- 50k dmg  so like one full bb kill

T6. 50-80 ye that's good but still 1-2 full bb kill /any dd can make it any time/

T8 just in public test was 80-100k 

 

Now: t4 10-20k and 0 planes

T6 30k and after  10 mins  0 planes. 

 

 

Edited by Gandariel
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I still think the class should be deleted. CVs just don’t fit with the rest of the game play. And they are still not fun to play against.

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Sounds like the hot fix is hot enough. I am some what glad.

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2 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

So, in a previous post I mentioned taking the torpedo aiming interface and translating that to AA control, where the grey indicator would denote plane lead, the torpedo aiming cone would be AA focus in which you could have wide at lower damage or narrow at higher damage, and then the larger cone for the area in which you could focus. Having the AA aim lock whenever you switch off would allow you to shoot something else, or fire torps etc, or you could wide focus if other things were more important. This is basically a more precise and controlled version of the sector system.

Using the torp interface, it would be pretty easy for people to understand and use. And if you are in a tight spot as in dodging fire from half a dozen ships, i mean you are already overloaded in terms of your engagement. You would have to make sacrifices in that situation whether there were planes or not, so there's no reason you should still be 100% effective against the planes without even trying.

This has some merit.  I'm looking at this primarily from the point of view of a destroyer player, though, where typically when/if I get plane spotted my priority target indicator will almost instantly jump from 0 (undetected) to 4+. :Smile_veryhappy:  Which is of course a necessary side effect of the primary objectives of destroyer play along with the relative weapons ranges vis-a-vis other surface ships.

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2 minutes ago, Harv72b said:

This has some merit.  I'm looking at this primarily from the point of view of a destroyer player, though, where typically when/if I get plane spotted my priority target indicator will almost instantly jump from 0 (undetected) to 4+. :Smile_veryhappy:  Which is of course a necessary side effect of the primary objectives of destroyer play along with the relative weapons ranges vis-a-vis other surface ships.

Someone has a good add of having planes spot ships in a similar way to new radar, where only the ship using radar can spot you for a time, and then adjust this to something realistic for planes, somewhere in 10-20s maybe to start. Unfortunately I talk to so many people I forgot who this was. 

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7 minutes ago, Gandariel said:

You forgot the main reason for CV rework.

 

You forgot they need give to players give some ability to do DMG, what will be reason play any class without substantial dmg.

Nobody complains when BB make Kraken.

Nobody complains when DD make Kraken

Nobody complains when cruiser make Kraken

Cv makes Kraken it must be a hot fix.

 

So what will happen? nothing special people stop play CV again. That's it :D 

 

My case: 8.0. T4 - about 30- 50k dmg  so like one full bb kill

T6. 50-80 ye that's good but still 1-2 full bb kill /any dd can make it any time/

T8 just in public test was 80-100k 

 

Now: t4 10-20k and 0 planes

T6 30k and after  10 mins  0 planes. 

 

 

Are you actually trying to defend the Haku’s Bugged torps? :Smile_trollface:

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6 minutes ago, Desertfox51 said:

I still think the class should be deleted. CVs just don’t fit with the rest of the game play. And they are still not fun to play against.

Because you aren't playing against them. I am starting to lean to player controlled aa being mostly skill based would alleviate a lot of this. Something like that would take time to make though, Donno if they really want to invest that far. 

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I don't play CVS now but in the future I may. The games I had this morning went well. I felt that My Missiouri had working AA. Thank WG for bringing the fun back.

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31 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

I really believe taking the time to develop a mostly player controlled AA system would really go a long way to actually give carriers a home in wows. Until that time, they will always be playing a different game than everyone else, and it's just not right.

How might that work in your opinion? The sector thing seems clunky and if you are aiming at planes you're not aiming at ships. 

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10 minutes ago, Gandariel said:

You forgot the main reason for CV rework.

 

You forgot they need give to players give some ability to do DMG, what will be reason play any class without substantial dmg.

Nobody complains when BB make Kraken.

Nobody complains when DD make Kraken

Nobody complains when cruiser make Kraken

Cv makes Kraken it must be a hot fix.

 

So what will happen? nothing special people stop play CV again. That's it :D 

 

My case: 8.0. T4 - about 30- 50k dmg  so like one full bb kill

T6. 50-80 ye that's good but still 1-2 full bb kill /any dd can make it any time/

T8 just in public test was 80-100k 

 

Now: t4 10-20k and 0 planes

T6 30k and after  10 mins  0 planes. 

 

 

But it’s ok for T10 CVs to do 500k+ damage? 

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1 minute ago, Sparviero said:

Are you actually trying to defend the Haku’s Bugged torps? :Smile_trollface:

He didn't even talk about the tier haku was in let alone haku itself. 

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Just now, Pulicat said:

He didn't even talk about the tier haku was in let alone haku itself. 

Krakens. It doesn’t take a world class detective to get the implication. :cap_like:

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34 minutes ago, Legio_X_ said:

I’m seeing a lot of CV tears, so it’s on the right track.

Not helpful, guy, we need balance or the game will fail and everyone will leave.

 

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Just now, Wye_So_Serious said:

How might that work in your opinion? The sector thing seems clunky and if you are aiming at planes you're not aiming at ships. 

Well, i detail it in a reply in this thread already. Look above for it. I don't see why if you are aiming at a player should be any different if they are in planes or a ship. If I'm aiming at Montana I'm not also aiming at conqueror, so why can i aim at Montana and be 100% effective against another player using planes?

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2 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

Because you aren't playing against them. I am starting to lean to player controlled aa being mostly skill based would alleviate a lot of this. Something like that would take time to make though, Donno if they really want to invest that far. 

I wish players had more control over AA, I hate how its too RNG dependent. Right now it feels more like CVs are playing PvE since the only real counter play is turing (even though planes will out turn you), and just choosing which AA sector to reinforce. 

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1 minute ago, Sparviero said:

Krakens. It doesn’t take a world class detective to get the implication. :cap_like:

Haku is the worst example for kraken. Haku problem was massive damage farm on BB, that does not equal kraken as it's no different trying to last hit something with any carrier planes. 

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Just now, Snargfargle said:

Not helpful, guy, we need balance or the game will fail and everyone will leave.

 

Actually game was doing just fine before rework. If anybody will leave it will be the surface ship players due to annoyance of CVs. 

The elephant in the room is that CVs will never be balanced in this game. WG is trying to put a square into a round hole. It will not fit.

 

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45 minutes ago, Pulicat said:

2. F key Recall nerf. Planes now are visible for about 2-3 seconds longer. 

As you have implied, it causes the planes that are returning after a strike to be damaged too much. I am literally losing an entire squadron on each attack of my Midway. By the time I get past the ship and wheel around for a second attack all my planes are gone and none return to the CV. I might as well just have a single-attack three-plane squadron of kamikaze planes.

That said, this is early game when the ships still have all their AA. It may be that CV players will have to just spot ships and wait until their team "softens up" the ships' AA before attacking.

Edited by Snargfargle

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