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Sabot_100

DDs lost their purpose?

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With the CV explosion and the related decline of DDs, I got to thinking.  Does a CV do all the normal DD rolls (except actual capping) better than the a real DD?  They can certainly keep the DD from fulfilling its traditional tasks but can they do those tasks better?

Their scouting if far superior with no worry about running into radar cruisers. They do not spot torps (anymore).

They can defend caps. They can't take caps (til late in the game anyway)

They can flex across the map quickly to respond to new threats.

They can force ships out of their hidey-holes without long setups looking for proper torp angles.

They can force ships to turn their broadsides and keep them turning.

They don't risk instant death in trying to perform these  duties.

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DD’s, in my opinion, have to alter in game priorities. I no longer rush to a cap, unless without CV’s. With CV’s in the match, I now screen close to teammates and provide smoke when they start firing, spot for them, send interdiction torpedoes, and target enemy ships with my main battery. If I’m at a cap, and the area is thick with enemy aircraft and ships, I back-off, after sending a couple torpedo strings in their general direction. Obvious they’re pushing that cap hard. Best to try somewhere else. However, this is touch and go. I have four crap matches for every good one.

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:cap_yes: they can still do what they used to sometimes

but is it as fun as it used to be

no

 That's the main problem a lot of players are having

Is this still fun?

If not you gotta move on

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1 hour ago, Harpoon_64 said:

I no longer rush to a cap, unless without CV’s. With CV’s in the match, I now screen close to teammates and provide smoke when they start firing, spot for them, send interdiction torpedoes, and target enemy ships with my main battery. If I’m at a cap, and the area is thick with enemy aircraft and ships, I back-off, after sending a couple torpedo strings in their general direction. Obvious they’re pushing that cap hard. Best to try somewhere else. However, this is touch and go. I have four crap matches for every good one.

Sounds like loads of fun. :Smile_sad: Obviously you ended up as high score for the team. :cap_haloween:

Thus the lack of DD play.

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21 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Sounds like loads of fun. :Smile_sad: Obviously you ended up as high score for the team. :cap_haloween:

Thus the lack of DD play.

Actually, yes, on occasion, and a few times in the top three. The first goal is to support the team, not be the high score. Incidentally, my best matches (defined as playing well) are when I'm able to contribute. The current lack of DD players in the queue has resulted in less time I'm waiting for a match. Also, the CV craze has driven more players to the lower tiers, further reducing wait times. Win-win. I hear your point though. I do have plenty of matches where I feel completely useless also.

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8 minutes ago, Harpoon_64 said:

Also, the CV craze has driven more players to the lower tiers,

Tried to capitalize on this and took my Umikaze out of mothballs. Ended up in my first ever Random 1v1 battle versus another DD. Don't know what the experience level of my opponent was (too good to be a seal) but I did manage to finally gun him down. Both of us were too good at dodging torps. Are there that few new players for this game?

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27 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Are there that few new players for this game?

Not sure. I'm a noob myself. Came over from WoT on PS4. Some of the same issues were taking place there also. I've had the same experience once or twice in my Umikaze, but I've also had awesome tier III matches, making life hard for BB's. Also, been having fun in the Isokaze, Wickes, and Clemson. The tier IV CV's aren't as hard to deal with, and keeping close to a CL or BB discourages air attacks. Now, my Farragut is a whole different matter. Seeing the "Flying Shimakaze" video by iChaseGaming shed some light on a similar experience in a Tier VIII match. Alternatively, my best match in the Farragut was when I was bottom tier the day after 0.8.0 was released.

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On 2/6/2019 at 7:06 PM, Sabot_100 said:

With the CV explosion and the related decline of DDs, I got to thinking.  Does a CV do all the normal DD rolls (except actual capping) better than the a real DD?  They can certainly keep the DD from fulfilling its traditional tasks but can they do those tasks better?

Their scouting if far superior with no worry about running into radar cruisers. They do not spot torps (anymore).

They can defend caps. They can't take caps (til late in the game anyway)

They can flex across the map quickly to respond to new threats.

They can force ships out of their hidey-holes without long setups looking for proper torp angles.

They can force ships to turn their broadsides and keep them turning.

They don't risk instant death in trying to perform these  duties.

So while I do agree that CVs help fulfill some of the traditional DD roles in this game, I would like to make some constructive counterpoints to this.

Yes CV's do not have to worry about radar and have much faster speeds allowing to scout effectively. However they have to be closer to ships(in AA range) to spot them and some DDs have hydro (also spots torps) or radar so they can spot ships in smoke something CVs can't do at all.

They can defend caps but they can not truly contest them the way a DD can. While they can reset a cap they can't prevent a cap if they are unable to get to to the target. A DD can just hide in the cap and prevent anyone else from being able to take it as long as they are in the cap.

They most definitely still have the greatest area of influence but they can't maintain influence in that area continuously like a DD. 

Still need proper angles and DD torps are better than aerial torps. I can probably get higher hit percentage with CV torps but my DD is dishing out more damage per hit.

Very fair point here. I can do a dry run in my bombers to force a turn and then drop on my second go in a CV. Definitely superior to the wait times involved in normal range DD torps. Only down side is that you probably can't surprise them. You're just forcing them to choose between turning to avoid the first fake set of torps or risking a hit by second guessing the follow up and not turning to avoid.

This is I think the most important point of all this. The other points are kind of give and take in my opinion in that they(CVs) are better in some ways and worse in others with respect to DDs. This point is unquestionably in the CV's favor. DD's die pretty easily when shot at and the DD is more front line than the actual CV ship. Of course CV's secondary self defense guns are next to useless should the actual ship be threatened. Basically, CVs are more survivable DDs with limited close range self defense ability against surface ships.

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Nope, and if anything they've picked up a few MORE jobs... Like they didn't have all ready far to much to do.

It depends on your POV.  And in this case it's best to just toss historical roles both real world and game out with the wash water because with this work in progress change to CV play has effected everything we do.

I've been heavily experimenting with my IJN DD tier 8 and up to find a balance that work and I am starting to find it.    Right now we got a lot of quitters that have suddenly happened around DD....and no small amount flat out whining like a bunch of entitled trust fund kids.. I know trust fun kids.. they are bad but whats been happening around here.. Uhg.  Worse.

I posted onto one of Flamu's DD posts..with my answer..

Start with tossing your old play book off to one side.  Don't throw it out yet because when there is no CV it'll be handy.  There will be players that depend on there being a CV in a match and will be pissy when there is not.. and none of them drive DD's.   Funny that.

He's where I'm going with my IJN lines.  Maybe it'll give you some idea's about what to do with the other lines.

Builds:  IJN Torpedo Boats.  Kagero, Yugumo, Shimikaze.    Forget concealment. the only thing concealment is good for is hunting other DD''s as of now.

You still need to see them first so Target Acquisition Module may finally come onto it's own.  Anything that allows you to extend what you can see around you.  Do not count on the CV being able to spot.. for that matter your a DD player.. don't count on anyone doing anything especially intelligent and enlightened.    Not be negative, just bowing to the inevitability of life as a DD driver.  Getting support of any kind is damd rare.  Focus on what IJN torp line does best and that is putting fish in the water.. the further your reach the better.  With AIr of any kind no longer spotting your torps you've actually had a small net gain because it is no easier or harder for a CV to take a DD out.. and the IJN Torp boats tend to issues with air defence.. do what you can but focus on your ships greatest strength.  As for play no more wandering far afield on a regular basis.  Your going to need to let the fight develop.. move far nuff forward to may get some spotting in and get the first few racks of fish off at the over eager or the over cautious... to keep them cautious.  Hitting anyone isn't important.. reminding them you are there is... so be sure to shoot the fish where they will see them.   Being a good torp boat player is all about getting into the other guys head and messing with it.. running them out of options and eventually sinking them.  Torp play is the most brain intensive play in the game.  Yes you ARE heads and shoulders smarter then most BB and CA players just by virtue of learning this stuff,, scary ain't it.  Scares me.. ya a bunch of these guys are adults and drive cars on the freeway.. like I said, scares me.

Before talking the gun boats  that most amazing of hybrid ships HSF Harekaze needs to be covered... If this ship is EVER available again GET IT FOR YOUR SELF... you owe it to you.  It's right up there on the list of must have DD's with Black and Kidd.  I could sing it's praises for hours but like all advanced DD's there is a steep learning curve because it is a hybrid ship.  3/4 an Akizuki or Kitakaze's firepower and pretty much twice thier torps..  It;s AA is solid and pretty much all tied up around the 10cm DP main guns.  Torpedo's max out at 10 Km and the option to drop smoke and take a torpedo reload booster  which is something I now consider essential on IJN DD's that can carry it.  It's the great equalizer.  She can be surprisingly stealthy and on this ship go concealment and run RPF this is a hunter killer, and a flexible one.  Can can chase down and punish opposing DD's.. 

When I'm in my Harekaze I fear NOTHING out there.  I've pounded all of em to whale poodoo.. Blacks, Flints, Atlanta's Cleve Balts.. all the ships from tier VI to tier X are on your menu and service is good ... no one other ships has your flexibility.. and that flexibilty was a happy accident.  Harekaze is not OP ... but in the hands of a player that can be OP, she rapidly gets there.  Mostly because she still a bit of a rare sight though lately you have been seeing a lot of Harekaze's.   That's because the ship is so good at what it does it can hang in the new meta.  CV players are all ready realizing the harekaze is NOT a free lunch.

The Gun Boats.. Akizuki, Kitakaze, Harugumo.  Spec for AA, give everything up for AA.  Conventional guns fight will happen only if your survive the airstrikes.

And in this case stick with the historical role of these ships which is close screen escort.  AA can be nearly american levels with the ability to switch AA to either side of the ship under 5 seconds.  And learn to micromanage that AA sector selector as it is essential to your survival.  Don't you worry you'll still get plenty of opportunity to give unfriendly capital ships a good hosing as long as you can insure you survive the first 10 min of the match.  

Note on IFHE on 10cm gunboats...it can be handy but there's really only a hand full of ships (like really.. only about 5 ships!) where it could be considered a must have against, and to tell the truth, feeding those suckers torpedo's is likely far more satisfying.  Use your HE liberally anyway.  You don't need to damage to take out modules.. blast damage will do the job nicely, penetrations are not needed.  You'll get more sticking damage if you can pen... but it's not essential.  Also be aware that at right around 5 KM there isn't a cruiser built can take water lines hits from you 10cm AP and not feel it.  Ditto one you get the range beyond 15 Km.. shells have transitioned to falling shot and can pen up to 52mm of deck armor.  AKizuki can barely reach this range and you have to spec specifically for it.   Kitakaze and Harugumo can set up tp reach just over 17 km but you better be a master at lofting lead shots.  It's also a great way to rip radar cruisers behind islands into little itty bitty piece,,  Is that a bit much?  I really really enjoy doing that to radar ships!

Also of note IFHE is a 4 point commander skill.   4 points there is a lot a DD can do with 4 commander skill points so dump conventioanl wisdom and tune the ship and commander to how you are going to play the ship!

 

Mostly IJN DD's and the rest of them for that matter are going to need to play a bit more conservative, stay close to the big ships and let the fight come to you which it always will.   Try to avoid being seen.. it's much more difficult for someone to dodge torpedo's if they never expected them in the first place.

You'll just have to play even more patiently.  The opportunities to lay into them will happen and just as often as previous.  But they'll tend to come mid and late game not early game.   Stay alive.. Once a DD is dead, and shell have landed and torps finish their run that's it.. no more effect on the battle.  So stay ALIVE. and keep fighting hard and smart.. Never let up and never give up.  Make sure they no your there right to the final tick of the clock.

DD are going to stay THE single most fragile ships in the game, and there are some real childish jerks on the same team who would rather see you in your DD get sunk then win the match.  They call us the "DD Mafia". like the biggest bunch of independent thinking cowboys in this game could ever possibly even get organized nuff to be a "Mafia"...  Really, easier to heard cats!  Ah well.   Mental illness is everywhere these days.  It's not your fault but ya still have ta deal with the fallout from it in other folks lives.  And it's worse with those who have received some level of entitlement and privilege.  (from their parent efforts, not their own.)   Yea not especially fair either but then anyone who ever told you the universe plays fair LIED.  They might have meant well, but they still lied.

 

Warlord sends.

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Ru DD can do their job as before, aas capping at first moments is not their job. Spped can get you out gfrom trouble and even hunt CVs in late stages.

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2 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Forget concealment. the only thing concealment is good for is hunting other DD''s as of now.

Sacrilege! Blasphemer! Are you saying to not take the skill or the module that lower your concealment? Very scary. They do make your spotting-by-air concealment better too increasing the chances the planes MAY miss you. May not be significant, but old traditions die hard.

2 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

You still need to see them first so Target Acquisition Module may finally come onto it's own.  Anything that allows you to extend what you can see around you. 

This mod may extend your visual range but I don't think it has any bearing on actually spotting a target earlier except it up your minimum spotting distance from 2 to 3km. Not a common need. If their concealment is 6 and yours is 6.1 (with no concealment skill or mod), they WILL see you first. I think other modules are far more valuable.

 

2 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

The Gun Boats.. Akizuki, Kitakaze, Harugumo.  Spec for AA, give everything up for AA.  Conventional guns fight will happen only if your survive the airstrikes.

Part of the problem with the CV rework is not that the planes are more dangerous, just that they are always there. Every friggin' game. Out looking for solo targets which is what DDs have always done best. Having to gut most of your offense so you can defend against a specific threat is one of the most aggravating aspects of the whole thing (BFT and AFT do affect both AA and main guns. Have to recheck what has changed with the rework. I know they don't increase range of AA). Plus you have to change your whole playstyle to a much more boring, huddle in the AA baitball one.

 

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15 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Sacrilege! Blasphemer! Are you saying to not take the skill or the module that lower your concealment? Very scary. They do make your spotting-by-air concealment better too increasing the chances the planes MAY miss you. May not be significant, but old traditions die hard.

This mod may extend your visual range but I don't think it has any bearing on actually spotting a target earlier except it up your minimum spotting distance from 2 to 3km. Not a common need. If their concealment is 6 and yours is 6.1 (with no concealment skill or mod), they WILL see you first. I think other modules are far more valuable.

 

Part of the problem with the CV rework is not that the planes are more dangerous, just that they are always there. Every friggin' game. Out looking for solo targets which is what DDs have always done best. Having to gut most of your offense so you can defend against a specific threat is one of the most aggravating aspects of the whole thing (BFT and AFT do affect both AA and main guns. Have to recheck what has changed with the rework. I know they don't increase range of AA). Plus you have to change your whole playstyle to a much more boring, huddle in the AA baitball one.

 

 

Yep *doffs hat* I'm afraid so.  Up in tier 8 plus concealment for DD only really need to be nuff to sneak up on capital ships (ie: anything not a DD)  It's a radacal thought I know, but I've been making it work.   Note: not simple, difficult, but doable.. and difficult to counter. which is a small but important plus.  the torp boats gotta play closer to the boys or bring AA escorts with them.  The gunboats can be their own AA escorts and they don't really give up any anti surface to do so.     

Target Aq Mod.. Yea.. it does..increased visual acquisition based upon their current concealment value.. so yep ya see em a bit further out, and assured detection range is 50% greater for any particular target type and state.  Oh and a fairly significant increase in torp spotting range and this really is a bit of a good thing.

 

Dead on right about the planes.. annoying doesn't begin to spell it out.  As for gutting one to boost another aspect.. yea you would think we DD players are used to it by now... umm I'd say more correctly resigned to it.

My old school no smoke harekaze is doing shocking well... flexibility is the critical thing, but good AA is now utterly crucial.  Carrier's want me bad nuff they will get me.. But at least I have the ability to rather difficult and time consuming to kill..  (Harekaze can be surprisingly slippery).  Which is something I wouldn't be able to do in a Kagero.  I continue to run RPF so once the air threat is elsewhere I can still hunt and go bully caps.  And running no smoke up to 16 torps in the water.  Toss in main guns that are damd accurate and fire every 3 seconds... or less, with a reasonable fire chance when you take in the rate of fire.  Gearings and Blacks and Kidds I am cautious of, but I am not afraid of them because mess up in front of my guns and you will not survive it.. which is the same for all well handled DD in upper tiers.  Funny that!   While my kill count on tier X air is low, that has more to do with the CV near loosing his strike package the first pass and F keying outta there..  More trouble them I'm worth...  On the other hand the miserable sods can spot me and keep me spotted.  I hate fighting in the shade...Mostly because if your fighting in the shade, generally things are happening ya know? 

 

Ohh Coffee is ready!  Enjoy your morning.. outta here!

   

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6 hours ago, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

Yea.. it does..increased visual acquisition based upon their current concealment value.. so yep ya see em a bit further out,

Not the way I read it and have seen it explained on multiple other threads where the topic has come up. 

The other effects you mention are correct. Personally don't think that is worth the cost of what you don't take. But I probably take more torps than I should.

Specifically the description says:

Spotting range:              +20%.

Another value is view range (sometimes called spotting range), which also doubles as a ship's render/targeting range. This is the range inside which other ships might be detected or spotted. It is indicated visually by the outer limit of the grey cone on the player's minimap in battle. No ship outside of this range can be detected by the player. Allied ships and enemy ships spotted by others that are outside of view range are not drawn on the main screen but are displayed on the minimap as outlined icons..

With the module that wedge goes out 20% farther. Don't know if it has any effect on visibility in a cyclone, but it sure seems that it would.

Edited by Sabot_100

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:26 PM, TL_Warlord_Roff said:

You still need to see them first so Target Acquisition Module may finally come onto it's own.  Anything that allows you to extend what you can see around you.

TA does not reduce enemy ships concealment.  Meaning a Gearing with a 5.9km concealment value will never be surface spotted from beyond 5.9km.  Most BBs, even with with secondary builds have concealment below the roughly 16km view range on most DDs meaning the increased max view range is meaningless beyond spotting ships already shooting, which by the nature of the gun bloom will mean other ships spot them.

Regarding DD utility, I think everyone knows what I think already.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai
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On 2/17/2019 at 10:26 AM, legozer said:

Is this thread the DD mafia? 

No such thing as the DD mafia. Just a friendly DD social group. You keep making such statements and we'll have Guido come pay you a visit.:Smile_trollface:

 

 

As a follow-up to discussions above, does Target Acquisition Mod increase the distance you can spot things in a cyclone or thunderstorm? 

 

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45 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

As a follow-up to discussions above, does Target Acquisition Mod increase the distance you can spot things in a cyclone or thunderstorm? 

No.

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21 minutes ago, legozer said:

No.

So since the minimum spotting distance increase is rarely a factor, its only real purpose is extending your torpedo spotting distance (normal, Vigilance or hydro). Not useless but not nearly as valuable as the other choices. (unless you really hate getting torped)

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

So since the minimum spotting distance increase is rarely a factor, its only real purpose is extending your torpedo spotting distance (normal, Vigilance or hydro). Not useless but not nearly as valuable as the other choices. (unless you really hate getting torped)

Yeah, pretty much.

Vigilance plus hydro is pretty swell, though, if you like to dakka dakka from smoke cover (Haida, for example).

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:50 PM, legozer said:

Yeah, pretty much.

Vigilance plus hydro is pretty swell, though, if you like to dakka dakka from smoke cover (Haida, for example).

Yep -- current game mechanics seem to favor gunboats DDs who hide in smoke and rapid fire HE shells to cause fires, or to chase down silly DD players like me who ground up to T10 before gunboat DDs came out and I'm too lazy to grind a new line.

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12 hours ago, EasyEight said:

Yep -- current game mechanics seem to favor gunboats DDs who hide in smoke and rapid fire HE shells to cause fires, or to chase down silly DD players like me who ground up to T10 before gunboat DDs came out and I'm too lazy to grind a new line.

Smoke is becoming quite useless for anything but breaking line of sight anymore. Minimap mods allow players to fire into smoke with absolute accuracy. I've completely given up trying to make Haida work anymore, what with the planes and such on top of the mew ability for players to nail any ship in smoke.

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3 hours ago, legozer said:

Smoke is becoming quite useless for anything but breaking line of sight anymore. Minimap mods allow players to fire into smoke with absolute accuracy. I've completely given up trying to make Haida work anymore, what with the planes and such on top of the mew ability for players to nail any ship in smoke.

I find myself going more towards SI for the extra smoke, especially on US DDs.  I just move and angle a lot in the smoke to avoid most of the blind fire.

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19 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I find myself going more towards SI for the extra smoke, especially on US DDs.  I just move and angle a lot in the smoke to avoid most of the blind fire.

I have had some success with that strategy in Sims and Farragut (same captain). Thanks for pointing that out. 

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21 hours ago, legozer said:

Smoke is becoming quite useless for anything but breaking line of sight anymore. Minimap mods allow players to fire into smoke with absolute accuracy. I've completely given up trying to make Haida work anymore, what with the planes and such on top of the mew ability for players to nail any ship in smoke.

What mini-map mod allows you to fire into smoke with absolute accuracy?

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2 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

What mini-map mod allows you to fire into smoke with absolute accuracy?

Last known position gives players a pretty good idea what zipcode you can be in.  Its quite common for DDs trying to cap to make the mistake of getting only a puff or two of smoke in the cap.  This small area makes it easy for the enemy to bombard those puffs, and as long as hes capping, the enemy knows his position because they will fly planes over it regularly to catch you if you pop out of the smoke.

This is all vanilla client stuff thats been in the game for ages.  You can also use the same tactic to shoot [edited] out of the render distance in a cyclone.  Put the little circle on their bow and blast away.  If they are far out, you might need to lead a bit more.  The more switched on players will be using this during the lull in the first 6 seconds of radar since the ship renders on the mini map too.

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