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Carl

Reworking the AAA Rework

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NOTE: between me getting this 80% done and finishing it WG'ing announced a bunch of stuff, (i took a break on writing for a few days). I'm still going to post this though as what they've announced is broadly in line with my own thoughts and i touch on some other issues i've experienced.

 

Despite the title i'm not going to propose anything too radical here, heavy adjustment but nothing that should need new code, (or at least any great amount of it), or anything.

 

Right disclaimer out of the way what are the issues with AAA right now?

 

I'm going to start from the CV side and then move onto the surface side as the CV issues have a fair bit of bearing on what surface ships are experiencing ATM.

 

1. Flak bursts from what i can tell are constrained to only spawn inside the aura radiuses. if your on a straight run in this isn't an issue, but i've experienced cases where i just brushed the edge of an aura as i turned away where he flak spawned right on top of my aircraft, (it's supposed to spawn a certain distance in front of you), and i'm pretty sure what's happening is where i am when the flak arrives is right on the outer edge of of the AAA rnage and thus the only place the flak bursts can spawn without going out of range is right on top of me.

 

2. A related and more common issue is that they don;t seem to be able to spawn inside their minimum rnage, this can be a real issue vs ships with strong mid rnage aura's as if the timing on your run is right you can end up getting to just before release point for the ordnance, (which is about where mid rnage aura's normally end), and the flak fires and because the only place it can spawn and not end up inside the aura radius is right on the inner edge it spawns so close in front of you and so densely packed that you can neither avoid it, nor take only one or two bursts, a lot of my heaviest losses happen to this.

 

3. Rarest of all is that i've experienced some heavy hits on the edge of AAA envelopes as i've been pulling out that make me suspect hat being constrained by the outer edge as your leaving can produce the same effect.

 

4. Flak patterns spawned by different ships can either as a result of differing flak patterns or more usually differing firing times generate undodgeable patterns where there either isn't a gap in the combined pattern or where there's a gap in both but you can't get through the gap in the first pattern and then make it to the gap in the second.

 

5. Even when point 2 does not occur in full the way many weapon types want you to make a steady run in on the final part of the run isn't very compatible with the flak mechanics.

 

6. Unless they hit a flak burst planes don't tend to die at a steady rate, instead the squad simply absorbs damage until the whole squad is low and then the entire squad wipes. This makes a slight misjudgment late on in a squads health bar highly punishing whilst a similar mistake early in the health bar isn't.

 

7. Dive bombers when at the bottom of their run if they haven't dropped their ordnance, (you messed up the run), will get utterly exterminated by flak as they briefly fly slow, mostly level and predictably. They're the only squad type to suffer from this.

 

 

By this point surface ship players are probably looking at the screen screaming obscenities and generally about to lose their minds so lets address their side of things.

 

1. Flak feels very random and is heavily dependent on CV driver skill or circumstances like those detailed in the CV player perspective section above to do anything.

 

2. Continuous damage generally feels low effect and of poor affect on most ships. In large part because of point 6 from the CV perspective above.

 

3. Poor feedback on the effects of their damage on aircraft for surface ship players and the ability to recall almost at will exacerbates this. A CV may have pulled their squad out because of excessive accumulated damage but this isn't obvious to the surface ship player the same way plane kills are.

 

 

 

 

Ok how would i go about addressing this.

 

The first few things are really to address some of the spawn on top of you and spawn silly patterns stuff as well as feedback to the surface ship player and F key abuse.

 

1. Start by implementing a Global server side timer on AAA firing, so all ships fire their AAA at the same time, this should deal with the separated undodgeable patterns. Fixing overlaps that are messy will be harder and probably require some fiddling behind the scenes.

 

2. Make Flak aura's able to fire flak bursts inside their minimum and outside their maximum ranges, but only at squads that are inside thsoe rnage bands, (you'll probably also want to do somthing about increases minimum rnage for flak burst setups, but my proposal includes that below natch).

 

3. A CV can only recalls their squadrons if A) they're within 5km of their CV, B), their not under AAA fire, C) the overall health of the squad is below 40%, (note to surface players, maximum squad health goes down as planes fly back after attack runs or die so losses to squad size from that won't let you recall full health planes). Tis way a player can use it to get a heavily damage squad out or recall when they need to cycle again when under attack on their CV or when they're clear of the enemy, but they can;t go in, hit once and then recall instantly.

 

4. Whenever a Cv recalls a squad with any planes under 50% health any ship that dealt damage to the squad gets 1 "Air Defence" ribbon for each plane that was recalled. This provides direct and obvious feedback to the surface player that all that AAA damage he dealt matters.

 

 

 

Ok that should deal with many frustration features, bugs, and poor feedback to the player but it still leaves a number of other issues, and this is where we get into the meat and bones of my suggestions.

 

This isn;t so much bullets of individual changes but a package that mutually supports, so i'm not going to bullet point it, (DuH!).

 

The first thing where going to do is completely redefine the aura's for everyone's AAA. Everyone now has a Long range and a Short range, (ok some ships will only have a short range as they only have short now, but they won't change s lets ignore them for this). The Long range has minimum and maximum ranges equal to the current Long Range aura on the ship. If the ship had no long range it uses the mid range values for it;s long range with the exception that the minimum range cannot be less than 2.5km and the maximum cannot be less than 4km, (for most examples this means the long rnage will be 2.5km-4km)

 

The Long range aura does no continuous damage and now only fires flak bursts, the damage is equal to their higher of the two damage values from it's old Long and Medium range aura's and the total bursts fired is equal to the old Long plus the old Mid aura's totals added together. The AA modules is increased from +2 to +4 flak bursts to compensate for the unified aura.

 

The Short range aura only deals continuous damage and deals damage equal to the sum of the continuous damage of the old short, medium and long added together wit the long then added a second time, (adding it twice should give ships that rely heavily on long range armerments a needed boost). Some ships, (i'm looking at you mr cleveland), will need this adjusting. The new short range aura stretches from 0.1km to the minimum range of the long range aura.

 

Flak bursts are changed so they're spread a bit more, but with fewer gaps you can get a squad through without catching it, in addition if a squad hits flak bursts it takes a single hit to a random plane for the full damage listed instead of hitting multipule planes.

 

Continuous Damage now targets the lowest HP plane is the squad.

 

Overall this should make flak bursts more reliable at dealing damage without wiping squads outright for one mistake whilst at the same time letting surface ship players pickup mre kills here and there, but without pushing it to extreme's, (most CV's really can;t afford to lose a lot of planes outright in a single battle ATM, tha may need som adjustment but i'm unsure).

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My general fixes needed for AA:

 

  • WG announced plans to adjust some of the damage from flak bursts to the continuous auras -- absolutely agree... the flak bursts are too random and create a balance issue with swingy hits and misses, plus they amplify differences in CV player skill.
  • They need to re-examine any ship that only has a small number of flak bursts and/or an unusually low aura damage rate in a range bracket (quite a few have as few as one, see the giant gap in the AA on Tirpitz, as one example of many).
  • Need to re-examine any ship with a hit chance under 75% on its AA, increase.   
  • Need to restore overlap between the range brackets of small, medium, and large AA mounts.  Many ships have large holes in their AA coverage because of poor small or medium mounts with long max ranges pushing the min ranges of the next size bigger out way too far.  The different minimum ranges that the non-overlap creates for the same AA mounts on different ships due to the mix of AA mounts is just strange -- ships without small mounts have 0.1km min range on medium AA mounts that have a 1km to 2km min range on other ships, and so on.  
  • Need to restore the range boost from AFT and upgrades.  Ships such as the Pensacola and New Orleans suffered a serious hit to their ability to project AA with their stock ranges under 5km.  Ships that used to provide "team" AA are far less able to do so in some cases.  CV players no longer have to take a calculated risk on the AA range of enemy ships, they just need to memorize ships. 

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3 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

My general fixes needed for AA:

 

  • WG announced plans to adjust some of the damage from flak bursts to the continuous auras -- absolutely agree... the flak bursts are too random and create a balance issue with swingy hits and misses, plus they amplify differences in CV player skill.
  • They need to re-examine any ship that only has a small number of flak bursts and/or an unusually low aura damage rate in a range bracket (quite a few have as few as one, see the giant gap in the AA on Tirpitz, as one example of many).
  • Need to re-examine any ship with a hit chance under 75% on its AA, increase.   
  • Need to restore overlap between the range brackets of small, medium, and large AA mounts.  Many ships have large holes in their AA coverage because of poor small or medium mounts with long max ranges pushing the min ranges of the next size bigger out way too far.  The different minimum ranges that the non-overlap creates for the same AA mounts on different ships due to the mix of AA mounts is just strange -- ships without small mounts have 0.1km min range on medium AA mounts that have a 1km to 2km min range on other ships, and so on.  
  • Need to restore the range boost from AFT and upgrades.  Ships such as the Pensacola and New Orleans suffered a serious hit to their ability to project AA with their stock ranges under 5km.  Ships that used to provide "team" AA are far less able to do so in some cases.  CV players no longer have to take a calculated risk on the AA range of enemy ships, they just need to memorize ships. 

 

Removing the range boosts was absolutely the correct way to go. Team AAA was a big part of how you could have literally untouchable ship groups previously. No other class can get into a situation where they have the means to attack but are literally unable to deal damage because the enemy are grouped up. AAA is and should remain primarily, (obviously i have no issues with some exceptions, but it shouldn't be globally available), a personal defence thing, just as other forms of defence are.

 

Overlap restore i sort of agree on, thats why i broke it down to two bands, pushing all flak out to mid range or grater eliminates the point blank impassable flak walls issue, but i agree with have more than one aura. As WG'ing said in an article they just released non-overlapping aura's give them more room to differentiate ships and tweak balance. But the current system isn'[t well designed to account for weaknesses in one range band.

 

Otherwise with you 100%.

 

 

 

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I missed the article where they tried to explain the non-overlapping range brackets. 

Personally, I care very little about the "differentiation", and very much about most ships having at least functional AA.

 

(Functional AA meaning strong enough to make the enemy carrier pay a price in actual plane(s) lost in exchange for attacking that ship.  "But you're doing damage to the planes" is meaningless -- planes that aren't shot down still drop ordinance, still make it back to the carrier, etc.)

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Carl said:

 

Removing the range boosts was absolutely the correct way to go. Team AAA was a big part of how you could have literally untouchable ship groups previously. No other class can get into a situation where they have the means to attack but are literally unable to deal damage because the enemy are grouped up. AAA is and should remain primarily, (obviously i have no issues with some exceptions, but it shouldn't be globally available), a personal defence thing, just as other forms of defence are.

 

Overlap restore i sort of agree on, thats why i broke it down to two bands, pushing all flak out to mid range or grater eliminates the point blank impassable flak walls issue, but i agree with have more than one aura. As WG'ing said in an article they just released non-overlapping aura's give them more room to differentiate ships and tweak balance. But the current system isn'[t well designed to account for weaknesses in one range band.

 

Otherwise with you 100%.

 

 

 

> have the means to attack but can't because enemy is grouped up

Like....DDs when radar cruisers chain radar?

Or BBs when there are island arcing cruisers?

Or CAs whenever they get flanked and focused?

CVs used to actually work with their team to hose over AA mounts with HE, and then drop in mid/late game.

If CVs can effectively negate the surface ships' defense by skill, teamplay needs to actually be worth a damn for AA.

> personal defense only

Then there needs to be zero ships with less than 3 flak walls base.

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15 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I missed the article where they tried to explain the non-overlapping range brackets. 

Personally, I care very little about the "differentiation", and very much about most ships having at least functional AA.

 

(Functional AA meaning strong enough to make the enemy carrier pay a price in actual plane(s) lost in exchange for attacking that ship.  "But you're doing damage to the planes" is meaningless -- planes that aren't shot down still drop ordinance, still make it back to the carrier, etc.)

 

 

Maybe its time to for WG to add a detonation mechanic to planes. If a plane's torpedo or bomb is damaged bg a flack burst (such as in a turn) it should blow up regardless of its health.

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4 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I missed the article where they tried to explain the non-overlapping range brackets. 

Personally, I care very little about the "differentiation", and very much about most ships having at least functional AA.

 

(Functional AA meaning strong enough to make the enemy carrier pay a price in actual plane(s) lost in exchange for attacking that ship.  "But you're doing damage to the planes" is meaningless -- planes that aren't shot down still drop ordinance, still make it back to the carrier, etc.)

 

 

 

I've pointed this out elsewhere but if yuo lose planes on every attack run you make your going to run out of planes really, really, really quickly. Like well before the end of the match. I really need to build a spreadsheet on it but i'd say more than 1-2 dead aircraft per squad launched and the system breaks down.

Shot down aircraft still drop ordanance BTW, (sort of). If a plane dies on an attack run and there's any spares left in the squad one of those comes in and fills it up. you can shoot down all the planes you want unless you take out most of the squad the first attack is still going in no matter what. The fact that you don't know this leaves me wondering how much you've played the new CV's TBH. Likewise when a Cv recalls a damage squad all that ordinance they didn't drop dosen't get magically dropped. Damage p;lanes is effective at lowering the CV's ability to damage things, it's just less obvious, (hence why i want a ribbon for recalled aircraft that where shot up).

 

9 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

> have the means to attack but can't because enemy is grouped up

Like....DDs when radar cruisers chain radar?

Or BBs when there are island arcing cruisers?

Or CAs whenever they get flanked and focused?

CVs used to actually work with their team to hose over AA mounts with HE, and then drop in mid/late game.

If CVs can effectively negate the surface ships' defense by skill, teamplay needs to actually be worth a damn for AA.

> personal defense only

Then there needs to be zero ships with less than 3 flak walls base.

 

None of those are undamageable for 99% of ships of the type. Island firerers are reliant on team spotting, kill the spotters and you can respond, (also any Ship with a spotter plane can shoot back). Likewise most DD's either have the gun and dodge capabilities or the torpedo rnage to attack chain radaring, (which requires far more coordination than the old extended range AAA and still needs 4 radar cruisers to pull off all in the same area).

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3 minutes ago, Carl said:

I've pointed this out elsewhere but if yuo lose planes on every attack run you make your going to run out of planes really, really, really quickly. Like well before the end of the match. I really need to build a spreadsheet on it but i'd say more than 1-2 dead aircraft per squad launched and the system breaks down.

Shot down aircraft still drop ordanance BTW, (sort of). If a plane dies on an attack run and there's any spares left in the squad one of those comes in and fills it up. you can shoot down all the planes you want unless you take out most of the squad the first attack is still going in no matter what. The fact that you don't know this leaves me wondering how much you've played the new CV's TBH. Likewise when a Cv recalls a damage squad all that ordinance they didn't drop dosen't get magically dropped. Damage p;lanes is effective at lowering the CV's ability to damage things, it's just less obvious, (hence why i want a ribbon for recalled aircraft that where shot up).

I *want* the carriers to effectively run out of planes if they're careless, that's part of what's missing in the rework and one of the big mistakes at the core of it. 

 

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54 minutes ago, Carl said:

NOTE: between me getting this 80% done and finishing it WG'ing announced a bunch of stuff, (i took a break on writing for a few days). I'm still going to post this though as what they've announced is broadly in line with my own thoughts and i touch on some other issues i've experienced.

 

Despite the title i'm not going to propose anything too radical here, heavy adjustment but nothing that should need new code, (or at least any great amount of it), or anything.

 

Right disclaimer out of the way what are the issues with AAA right now?

 

I'm going to start from the CV side and then move onto the surface side as the CV issues have a fair bit of bearing on what surface ships are experiencing ATM.

 

1. Flak bursts from what i can tell are constrained to only spawn inside the aura radiuses. if your on a straight run in this isn't an issue, but i've experienced cases where i just brushed the edge of an aura as i turned away where he flak spawned right on top of my aircraft, (it's supposed to spawn a certain distance in front of you), and i'm pretty sure what's happening is where i am when the flak arrives is right on the outer edge of of the AAA rnage and thus the only place the flak bursts can spawn without going out of range is right on top of me.

 

2. A related and more common issue is that they don;t seem to be able to spawn inside their minimum rnage, this can be a real issue vs ships with strong mid rnage aura's as if the timing on your run is right you can end up getting to just before release point for the ordnance, (which is about where mid rnage aura's normally end), and the flak fires and because the only place it can spawn and not end up inside the aura radius is right on the inner edge it spawns so close in front of you and so densely packed that you can neither avoid it, nor take only one or two bursts, a lot of my heaviest losses happen to this.

 

3. Rarest of all is that i've experienced some heavy hits on the edge of AAA envelopes as i've been pulling out that make me suspect hat being constrained by the outer edge as your leaving can produce the same effect.

 

4. Flak patterns spawned by different ships can either as a result of differing flak patterns or more usually differing firing times generate undodgeable patterns where there either isn't a gap in the combined pattern or where there's a gap in both but you can't get through the gap in the first pattern and then make it to the gap in the second.

 

5. Even when point 2 does not occur in full the way many weapon types want you to make a steady run in on the final part of the run isn't very compatible with the flak mechanics.

 

6. Unless they hit a flak burst planes don't tend to die at a steady rate, instead the squad simply absorbs damage until the whole squad is low and then the entire squad wipes. This makes a slight misjudgment late on in a squads health bar highly punishing whilst a similar mistake early in the health bar isn't.

 

7. Dive bombers when at the bottom of their run if they haven't dropped their ordnance, (you messed up the run), will get utterly exterminated by flak as they briefly fly slow, mostly level and predictably. They're the only squad type to suffer from this.

 

 

By this point surface ship players are probably looking at the screen screaming obscenities and generally about to lose their minds so lets address their side of things.

 

1. Flak feels very random and is heavily dependent on CV driver skill or circumstances like those detailed in the CV player perspective section above to do anything.

 

2. Continuous damage generally feels low effect and of poor affect on most ships. In large part because of point 6 from the CV perspective above.

 

3. Poor feedback on the effects of their damage on aircraft for surface ship players and the ability to recall almost at will exacerbates this. A CV may have pulled their squad out because of excessive accumulated damage but this isn't obvious to the surface ship player the same way plane kills are.

 

 

 

 

Ok how would i go about addressing this.

 

The first few things are really to address some of the spawn on top of you and spawn silly patterns stuff as well as feedback to the surface ship player and F key abuse.

 

1. Start by implementing a Global server side timer on AAA firing, so all ships fire their AAA at the same time, this should deal with the separated undodgeable patterns. Fixing overlaps that are messy will be harder and probably require some fiddling behind the scenes.

 

2. Make Flak aura's able to fire flak bursts inside their minimum and outside their maximum ranges, but only at squads that are inside thsoe rnage bands, (you'll probably also want to do somthing about increases minimum rnage for flak burst setups, but my proposal includes that below natch).

 

3. A CV can only recalls their squadrons if A) they're within 5km of their CV, B), their not under AAA fire, C) the overall health of the squad is below 40%, (note to surface players, maximum squad health goes down as planes fly back after attack runs or die so losses to squad size from that won't let you recall full health planes). Tis way a player can use it to get a heavily damage squad out or recall when they need to cycle again when under attack on their CV or when they're clear of the enemy, but they can;t go in, hit once and then recall instantly.

 

4. Whenever a Cv recalls a squad with any planes under 50% health any ship that dealt damage to the squad gets 1 "Air Defence" ribbon for each plane that was recalled. This provides direct and obvious feedback to the surface player that all that AAA damage he dealt matters.

 

 

 

Ok that should deal with many frustration features, bugs, and poor feedback to the player but it still leaves a number of other issues, and this is where we get into the meat and bones of my suggestions.

 

This isn;t so much bullets of individual changes but a package that mutually supports, so i'm not going to bullet point it, (DuH!).

 

The first thing where going to do is completely redefine the aura's for everyone's AAA. Everyone now has a Long range and a Short range, (ok some ships will only have a short range as they only have short now, but they won't change s lets ignore them for this). The Long range has minimum and maximum ranges equal to the current Long Range aura on the ship. If the ship had no long range it uses the mid range values for it;s long range with the exception that the minimum range cannot be less than 2.5km and the maximum cannot be less than 4km, (for most examples this means the long rnage will be 2.5km-4km)

 

The Long range aura does no continuous damage and now only fires flak bursts, the damage is equal to their higher of the two damage values from it's old Long and Medium range aura's and the total bursts fired is equal to the old Long plus the old Mid aura's totals added together. The AA modules is increased from +2 to +4 flak bursts to compensate for the unified aura.

 

The Short range aura only deals continuous damage and deals damage equal to the sum of the continuous damage of the old short, medium and long added together wit the long then added a second time, (adding it twice should give ships that rely heavily on long range armerments a needed boost). Some ships, (i'm looking at you mr cleveland), will need this adjusting. The new short range aura stretches from 0.1km to the minimum range of the long range aura.

 

Flak bursts are changed so they're spread a bit more, but with fewer gaps you can get a squad through without catching it, in addition if a squad hits flak bursts it takes a single hit to a random plane for the full damage listed instead of hitting multipule planes.

 

Continuous Damage now targets the lowest HP plane is the squad.

 

Overall this should make flak bursts more reliable at dealing damage without wiping squads outright for one mistake whilst at the same time letting surface ship players pickup mre kills here and there, but without pushing it to extreme's, (most CV's really can;t afford to lose a lot of planes outright in a single battle ATM, tha may need som adjustment but i'm unsure).

Nice write-up  Thanks for your view-point

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10 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I *want* the carriers to effectively run out of planes if they're careless, that's part of what's missing in the rework and one of the big mistakes at the core of it. 

 

Won't work if they all run out of planes . hell DDs don't run out of torps 

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14 minutes ago, KilljoyCutter said:

I *want* the carriers to effectively run out of planes if they're careless, that's part of what's missing in the rework and one of the big mistakes at the core of it. 

 

 

The point i'm getting at is the way the regen mechanics work if every attack run is losing at least one plane every CV player no matter how good and careful is going to run out completely early into every single game. Unless you significantly decrease regen time or up reserve counts CV's need to be getting out of most attack runs with zero losses. What currently separates the moderate from the good and the good from the excellent isn't how many planes they lose per attack run, but how many attack runs they cna make before they have to recall to avoid losses.

 

I agree loss rates are too low ATM for all but the bad players. But there isn't a lot of room in absolute numbers terms to increase average kill rates per atack run attempt without creating serious overkill.

 

I think i need to math big time on this for people.

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7 hours ago, Carl said:

 

I've pointed this out elsewhere but if yuo lose planes on every attack run you make your going to run out of planes really, really, really quickly. Like well before the end of the match. I really need to build a spreadsheet on it but i'd say more than 1-2 dead aircraft per squad launched and the system breaks down.

Shot down aircraft still drop ordanance BTW, (sort of). If a plane dies on an attack run and there's any spares left in the squad one of those comes in and fills it up. you can shoot down all the planes you want unless you take out most of the squad the first attack is still going in no matter what. The fact that you don't know this leaves me wondering how much you've played the new CV's TBH. Likewise when a Cv recalls a damage squad all that ordinance they didn't drop dosen't get magically dropped. Damage p;lanes is effective at lowering the CV's ability to damage things, it's just less obvious, (hence why i want a ribbon for recalled aircraft that where shot up).

 

 

None of those are undamageable for 99% of ships of the type. Island firerers are reliant on team spotting, kill the spotters and you can respond, (also any Ship with a spotter plane can shoot back). Likewise most DD's either have the gun and dodge capabilities or the torpedo rnage to attack chain radaring, (which requires far more coordination than the old extended range AAA and still needs 4 radar cruisers to pull off all in the same area).

Torpedo range cannot counter chain radaring because any torp fired beyond 12 km has a spread wide enough for even a CA's beam length.

> dodge abilities to >attack< radar radaring

...are you actually suggesting that DD gunboating is an effective counter to chain radaring (by definition involving more than one CA/CL, with the likes of RN/USN/RU)? Really?

> none of those are undamageable

Which was my point. You need teamplay to overcome it, as you, in that ship in that situation, CANNOT defeat it alone. You need help.

That's a FEATURE, not a bug.

> more coordination than extended range AA

Yet people still got dropped on.

Why?

Because it required someone to actually spec for AA, and for that person to avoid HE fire throughout. It also required at least one other cruiser who similarly had to be effectively anchored as team umbrella.

In the previous system you would tell your team to focus these cruisers for the same reason a DD would; it had utility that prevented you from operating there.

At the same time, a DD might request their CV to block/redirect incoming planes to reduce enemy CV spotting.

Now, you not only don't need to do this (since enemy AA rating is now almost entirely dependent on you hitting an RNG flak wall, which can be cheesed no fewer than 2 ways), but surface has NO reliable counterplay (other than stacking flak walls in a 5 km mesh, which you want to nerf, despite that being RIDICULOUSLY terrible for surface play in exchange for a modicum of respite from plane attack) and neither does the CV. The CAP radius is stationary and kills only exactly the number of planes in that CAP, if it does at all.

> math

Let's say Midway has 15 planes per type. You regen 1/90s.

It takes 60s to get to target area, plus 25s to wait for right moment, line up, and execute drop.

Using only one type (TB), you approach a target, cheese flak by boosting past long/mid range, and drop. Planes are damaged heavily by tanking the obligatory flak hit at end of zones, you maybe lose 2-4. You hit F.

You immediately switch to DBs. By the time you've got your new squad in the AO, one plane has recovered and second is in 2/3 regen. You drop. Take 2-4 plane losses, hit F.

You go back to TB. You still have a completely full strength squad, which takes off. Your third TB (in reserve) has regened by the time you get to target area (you now have only 1 actual depletion, only in reserve). You drop, take 2-4 plane losses before recall.

It takes you 4 minutes of straight dropping before losing half your squads even impacts your squad strength.

Then you switch to rockets, pick on DDs with fewer losses (naturally fewer flak walls, less likely to be AA meshed). You drop the entire squad, taking 90 seconds to do so on top of transit.

Both DBs and TBs back to full squad strength, regenning reserve while the other is attacking.

If you lose any less than 4 planes, you don't even get to where you have to switch to DB. You can do a second run and then switch.

That's why inconsistent AA is such a big deal. It is literally up to chance whether or not you lose planes, you can modify that chance (while surface CANNOT) with skill, and even when it works, it doesn't ACTUALLY dissuade you because you can just recall and attack with some other type.

Losing planes has to, at some point, impact the CV. Whether this is done by nerfing regen or otherwise isn't important.

Edited by NATOMarksman

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15 hours ago, NATOMarksman said:

Torpedo range cannot counter chain radaring because any torp fired beyond 12 km has a spread wide enough for even a CA's beam length.

> dodge abilities to >attack< radar radaring

...are you actually suggesting that DD gunboating is an effective counter to chain radaring (by definition involving more than one CA/CL, with the likes of RN/USN/RU)? Really?

> none of those are undamageable

Which was my point. You need teamplay to overcome it, as you, in that ship in that situation, CANNOT defeat it alone. You need help.

That's a FEATURE, not a bug.

> more coordination than extended range AA

Yet people still got dropped on.

Why?

Because it required someone to actually spec for AA, and for that person to avoid HE fire throughout. It also required at least one other cruiser who similarly had to be effectively anchored as team umbrella.

In the previous system you would tell your team to focus these cruisers for the same reason a DD would; it had utility that prevented you from operating there.

At the same time, a DD might request their CV to block/redirect incoming planes to reduce enemy CV spotting.

Now, you not only don't need to do this (since enemy AA rating is now almost entirely dependent on you hitting an RNG flak wall, which can be cheesed no fewer than 2 ways), but surface has NO reliable counterplay (other than stacking flak walls in a 5 km mesh, which you want to nerf, despite that being RIDICULOUSLY terrible for surface play in exchange for a modicum of respite from plane attack) and neither does the CV. The CAP radius is stationary and kills only exactly the number of planes in that CAP, if it does at all.

> math

Let's say Midway has 15 planes per type. You regen 1/90s.

It takes 60s to get to target area, plus 25s to wait for right moment, line up, and execute drop.

Using only one type (TB), you approach a target, cheese flak by boosting past long/mid range, and drop. Planes are damaged heavily by tanking the obligatory flak hit at end of zones, you maybe lose 2-4. You hit F.

You immediately switch to DBs. By the time you've got your new squad in the AO, one plane has recovered and second is in 2/3 regen. You drop. Take 2-4 plane losses, hit F.

You go back to TB. You still have a completely full strength squad, which takes off. Your third TB (in reserve) has regened by the time you get to target area (you now have only 1 actual depletion, only in reserve). You drop, take 2-4 plane losses before recall.

It takes you 4 minutes of straight dropping before losing half your squads even impacts your squad strength.

Then you switch to rockets, pick on DDs with fewer losses (naturally fewer flak walls, less likely to be AA meshed). You drop the entire squad, taking 90 seconds to do so on top of transit.

Both DBs and TBs back to full squad strength, regenning reserve while the other is attacking.

If you lose any less than 4 planes, you don't even get to where you have to switch to DB. You can do a second run and then switch.

That's why inconsistent AA is such a big deal. It is literally up to chance whether or not you lose planes, you can modify that chance (while surface CANNOT) with skill, and even when it works, it doesn't ACTUALLY dissuade you because you can just recall and attack with some other type.

Losing planes has to, at some point, impact the CV. Whether this is done by nerfing regen or otherwise isn't important.

 

So much wrong in there. 

 

First firing torpedoes into packed groups of ships is perfectly viable. As is gunboating in gunboat DD's. In no way is any teamwork strictly required to overcome it. It helps but it's not required.

 

Second you completely ignored my point that chain radaring takes a truly hilarious amount of teamwork and team coordination to effectively pull off. Conversely grouping up for AAA does not, you just have to be near each other, no one has to be specifically bringing a specific ship, no one has to be communicating their consumable status to anyone else, and you can do it within the confines of a division. None of that is true for your chain radaring.

 

Island firing does require a lot less teamwork. But it's also significantly less powerful and counterable. Hiding behind an island stops you damaging that specific ship, it dosen;t stop you damaging his teamates and ultimately forcing him out from behind that island.

 

Also i did the math, For Audacious, ( i have a good game from stuntman to use as a n example and can find more on twitch easily), the limit is roughly 1 plane lost per attack run. Anymore than that and even a really insanely good new cv player couldn't avoid deplanning, and stuntman is really good at not losing planes.

 

 

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