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cmdr_bigdog

DD main, 8.0 isnt that bad for dds

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I admit I was really po'ed when first playing 8.0, now I'm not.  

I'm a dd main and IMO TX CVs are just like another minotaur. They will spot you from air while mino spots with radar and with either one 30 seconds later you are either sunk or badly damaged. 

DDs have always been vulnerable to 30 seconds of hell from these uber-detectors. A CV is similar to adding another radar ship and IMO there should be a limit on how many uber-detectors there are in a game. 

The tradeoff with CVs in a game is a dd gains a HUGE advantage that is not present with radars. With CVs there are an equal number of the same tier, with the same spotting abilities while with radar it is not even on both sides.

The HUGE improvement is with CVs you know where the radar ships are and can better position yourself. I would rather see 2 cvs than 4 radar ships. 

I see why the mino players don't like cv's, they are spotted, they cant hide behind islands as effectively and dds can avoid them more easily.  (Wait, isn't that what minos do to dds?)

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This is true. Before the update I was always getting deleted by radar cruisers or blind torp drops into my smoke screen. But now I also have to worry about getting spotted even before I reach the cap. My strategy is to pull a U-turn when enemy planes get close and try to present them with my AA strong side while I run. My biggest complain is that the AA feels pretty nerfed. Before the patch I could nail 5 or 6 planes with my Fletcher. Now I can barely get one.

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7 minutes ago, cmdr_bigdog said:

The HUGE improvement is with CVs you know where the radar ships are and can better position yourself. I would rather see 2 cvs than 4 radar ships. 

As a DD player I'll take CV's over radar all day.

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True, no one is shooting down planes like before. Most of the cv players know how few planes get shot down and many times the planes will attack the big ships instead of the dd. 

 

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I'll take radar CA/CLs over a CV any day. If the radar boat wants to spot me it costs them a consumable, if a CV wants to spot me it costs them nothing but a few seconds of their time. Sure they may not get that extra farming run on a BB, but they can eliminate a DD and go back to farming damage right after.

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With the CV rework you dont need to care about radar simply because you dont get the chance to get near the radar ship. You need to stay too far in the back to get AA cover, often out of radar range, so you dont really need to care about radar.

 

I rather face radar ships than a single CV in my DDs. Radar has range/time limits, CV does not. Radar can see though islands, but you can still use them for cover, CVs doesnt care about islands. 

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Yeah and if you have a stealthy DD with AA switched off unless the planes actually get lucky enough to spot you, in which case let your AA work on them. But you actually manage to slip through enemy lines and cause havoc, because unlike radar ships the aircraft can’t see up to 12km in any direction from them like a radar ship can max out at. Plus with all the air traffic the planes are frequently spotting each other and enemy BBs and CAs. So it could be promising update actually, yes I know that sounds insane to some but it’s true. Especially with the fact the planes can’t spot Torps which means the enemy ships either has to have escort ship, hydro, Vigilance, Target Acquisition System Modification, or all of these things innotder to spot the Torps. This also means the aircraft can’t spot the Torps and immediately trace them back to their point of origin to locate your DD or CA.

Other advantages include every CV in the enemy team meaning 1 less ship that will be capping or playing hard to get. Less radar and hydro. Possibly higher scores depending on if your DD gets to sink the full HP CVs as added bonuses to the other ships and caps, plus possibly added currency rewards for planes shot down and the HP from those.

Only real down sides I have found in the update is with Torps not being able to be spotted and some cat fighter changes some of my ships are a little more at risk from Torps than they used to be when my cat fighters could be defensive asset against torpedoes. So now I am having to consider squeezing Vigilance into some of my captains, and deciding which CAs need the Def AA or Hydro more. Relatively minor issues though.

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20 minutes ago, CTMAADawson said:

This is true. Before the update I was always getting deleted by radar cruisers or blind torp drops into my smoke screen. But now I also have to worry about getting spotted even before I reach the cap. My strategy is to pull a U-turn when enemy planes get close and try to present them with my AA strong side while I run. My biggest complain is that the AA feels pretty nerfed. Before the patch I could nail 5 or 6 planes with my Fletcher. Now I can barely get one.

What is your build? My first Fletcher game in 8.0 I got 21 planes. I'm averaging about 10 per game when the CV decides to harass me.

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12 minutes ago, REZ_0311 said:

As a DD player I'll take CV's over radar all day.

Indeed since CV planes can only spot you with AA switched off at around 3-4km or so, Hydro and Radar can spot at 6-12km and unleash a furious barrage of shell fire. The planes defending the type range from close to harmless to annoying, but you can smoke up and start shooting the planes down at least. Radar and hydro ships you can’t hide from and destroy quite as often depending on the situation.

I don’t use Russian DDs so not entirely 100% how they are faring with the rework, but my DDs are as follows. USN DDs longest smoke and best AA for DDs which can also be further increased with Def AA.  IJN (mostly the torp line, only starting on Gunboat line) have varied AA effectiveness but best stealth and good smoke. RN DDs have relatively poor AA usually although will still chew on the planes for you, but are once again stealthy enough, and their short smoke charges are great at shaking off enemy planes many times through the battle. And while RN DDs are in smoke you can turn on hydro in case there were Torpedo bombers trying to drop Torps into the smoke, if the Torps miss you often the bombers move on to their targets.

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5 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

What is your build? My first Fletcher game in 8.0 I got 21 planes. I'm averaging about 10 per game when the CV decides to harass me.

Nice, you know these new CVs may prove more historically accurate in their functions, since our DDs are finally putting up at least some plane kills which was historically accurate for ships like the Fletcher.

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11 minutes ago, Jiggiwatt said:

What is your build? My first Fletcher game in 8.0 I got 21 planes. I'm averaging about 10 per game when the CV decides to harass me.

I only have Basic Fire Training. I know respec is free right now and I can invest in the aa skills. But my point was that I was happy with the number of planes I shot down before. Now I have to chose between skills and modules that fit my play style or AA defense. Shooting down planes is all well and good, but I try to avoid them all together.

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2 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Indeed since CV planes can only spot you with AA switched off at around 3-4km or so, Hydro and Radar can spot at 6-12km and unleash a furious barrage of shell fire. The planes defending the type range from close to harmless to annoying, but you can smoke up and start shooting the planes down at least. Radar and hydro ships you can’t hide from and destroy quite as often depending on the situation.

What I have started to do is leave my AA off till I'm spotted, at that point the planes are normally too close to do an effective drop. Then you smoked up and activate your AA. Also you don't rush the cap anymore in your DD.

And one benefit I'm starting to enjoy torpedo hits in my destroyer are getting easier, because all of the other ships are so afraid of a CV that they are in one giant clump in firing torpedoes into it makes for multiple hits on different ships. It's also kind of funny how a higher tier ship we'll see a low-tier CV end gameand they're more afraid of the low tier CV than they are of the high tier DD in the same game.

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Right now, it's the happy times for CVs hunting BBs.

Once WG balances CVs so they can't just farm damage off of BBs with impunity they will start to go more for DDs to win games.

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1 minute ago, REZ_0311 said:

What I have started to do is leave my AA off till I'm spotted, at that point the planes are normally too close to do an effective drop. Then you smoked up and activate your AA. Also you don't rush the cap anymore in your DD.

And one benefit I'm starting to enjoy torpedo hits in my destroyer are getting easier, because all of the other ships are so afraid of a CV that they are in one giant clump in firing torpedoes into it makes for multiple hits on different ships. It's also kind of funny how a higher tier ship we'll see a low-tier CV end gameand they're more afraid of the low tier CV than they are of the high tier DD in the same game.

Yes exactly leaving AA off until spotted. Of course that procedure can be flexible since if a BB you are close to has aircfact incoming and your AA is longer ranged than your minimum air detection range I sometimes am switching the AA on and sitting next the the allied ship. And that could even be a CA with weaker AA or a Wolfpack of DDs taking a moment to stop the enemy planes from attacking one of the DDs in your group.

The capping bases is situational thing, if I just happen to be near a base with little to no enemy presence in the area I will go ahead and cap it to get some points coming in for the team, and to actually if your lucky cause a little desperation innthe enemy team.

I have been starting to find amusement in this update since thanks to outcry from the playerbase Wargaming had to delay the update a few days and do a final test on test server will improved AA from what they were going to do initially, so AA is not as bad as most think aside from being short ranged than it used to be. And word is Wargaming is doing hotfix to buff AA even more lol.

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I don't know, I'm not great at doing damage yet, since I have trouble with the floaty unreaponsiveness, but its never taken me more than 2 minutes to spot the enemy DDs, the first one in the first 40 seconds usually down to at least half life before I go on to find the others. I don't know why people think its hard to strike a dd on spotting when you have the s key and they can't bank as well as you can adjust. Its starting to get easy to bank my second and third attack to so there's only about a 10 to 20 second delay between undodgeable hits.

 

 I've found the only time I've been effective AND fun in my dd lately is when the red cvs play what I consider a terrible game. Sure I've been effective in several dd games, but none of them were that fun.

 

Edit: Always ask the other cvs to help with rockets on dds, you can have a dd dead every minute even if you both miss some.

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  I did find a way to dodge attack planes that limits some of the damage which mostly involves staying beam on to the planes and turning. As most destroyers skid when they turn at high speed, this throws the aim of the CV driver to some extent. I'll say this, staying in line with the attack planes and thinking you can throttle juke them is a pretty large mistake.

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1 hour ago, cmdr_bigdog said:

I admit I was really po'ed when first playing 8.0, now I'm not.  

It definitely changed the DD meta game. And made being the steal hunter nearly impossible, but as long as you're smart about turning off the Auto-AA (I'm amazed at how many are NOT doing this...) I've done just fine with adapting my DD game.

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I don't think that cv's should be able to spot in the first place. as can fly their planes faster. so it takes away the job of dd's spotting in the first place. And that event we have just done, was hard enough with dd players as it is especially newer players.

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2 hours ago, cmdr_bigdog said:

I admit I was really po'ed when first playing 8.0, now I'm not.  

I'm a dd main and IMO TX CVs are just like another minotaur. They will spot you from air while mino spots with radar and with either one 30 seconds later you are either sunk or badly damaged. 

DDs have always been vulnerable to 30 seconds of hell from these uber-detectors. A CV is similar to adding another radar ship and IMO there should be a limit on how many uber-detectors there are in a game. 

The tradeoff with CVs in a game is a dd gains a HUGE advantage that is not present with radars. With CVs there are an equal number of the same tier, with the same spotting abilities while with radar it is not even on both sides.

The HUGE improvement is with CVs you know where the radar ships are and can better position yourself. I would rather see 2 cvs than 4 radar ships. 

I see why the mino players don't like cv's, they are spotted, they cant hide behind islands as effectively and dds can avoid them more easily.  (Wait, isn't that what minos do to dds?)

I agree. Plus with decent AA and smoke I can usually convince the CV to go bug someone else. I can't do that to radar ships.

Another positive is this. CVs are focusing DDs because AA is so OP on some ships, I've watched entire squadrons get vaporized on their first attack run. IF WG ever balances AA, CVs won't focus on DDs nearly as much. DDs are smaller, faster, more agile, harder to hit and worth fewer points. BB's and Cruisers are CV's bread and butter and who they should be focused on. (Thanks WG)

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I agree with the OP.  I play DD mainly and don't think my win rate has suffered since 8.0.  What has happened is that sometimes my damage can be way low, because the CV decides to focus on me and rockets me repeatedly throughout the game.  When this happens I spend the entire game dodging, hardly ever using my guns or torpedoes.  My only "damage caused" would be on airplanes only, and "damage suffered" from rockets only.

As far as I'm concerned, it's ok by me.  It's still exciting, just in a different way.  If the CV attacks me, then it's not attacking teammates.  A win is still a win.  And just as often, CV would ignore me.  In which case I can still reap huge (by my standard) damage.

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