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Shoggoth_pinup

A question to CV players new and old

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Have you tried old CV? Have you tried new CV? Well, I have a question for you all specifically: how would you balance this new breed of CV? You have experience on the side touted to be omnipotent gods by doomsayers, so you know what all is too good.

I've played the heck out of new CVs, personally, and find that radio location is a bit OP. That said, trying to work without it was also a bit hard. I, however, feel that simply removing it from the plane but keeping it on the CV itself could work. However, keep the indicator visible on the plane, allowing you to use it defensively, as you'd know when someone is hunting you.

Another alteration I've noticed could help is to make the fighter squads not stack, instead being a bunch of individual planes, allowing for perhaps easier counter play against using them to spot a DD, and thus making it a more limited defensive tool, rather than a misusable tool, as doing so leaves your allies without protection.

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While there are some issues up in tier 10 I think that overall the new CV's are reasonably well balanced. However, that said AA desperately needs some work with plus 2 and some times plus 1 being nearly impossible to deal with while at the same time minus 2 and  some minus 1 are rather easy to deal with and get good strikes in.

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I remember the original days where CVs were prevalent in game, much because they were damage delivering monsters that had up to 9 squads in the air at once time.   A good CV captain would camp DBs or fighters over DDs or common DD areas to spot the map while he drove his TB squads around dishing out damage.

There were planes everywhere. DD drivers cried and cried in the forums about constant spotting and too may planes.   So we then suddenly went to not being able to division in CVs to only one CV per game above tier 8 to ships and aircraft that were virtually useless and the class died out.  DD proliferated.  Invisy firing and smoke firing and controlling the map the way good DDs can.

Now we've come back full circle. "I'm spotted all the time" . "too many planes in the air"  "My AA doesn't shoot down every single plane before it gets to me planes OP"   I literally don't see a place for CV in this game with the player base the way they are.  It was the same in WoT with Arty tanks, any time one had a good game or someone got hit by artillery it was in the forums in a rant fest / love in for all the other arty haters.   It will be the same here.  Wargaming will have done all this work on re-tooling CV play only to have to nerf them into oblivion because the playerbase will whine and complain excessively until it's done so.

 

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Good question. I am the former. Played the CV frequently pre 8.0.

AA is where it gets sticky. WG did announce that with the new release there would be noticeable difference with AA as a CV faced higher tier ships. My opinion, like the captain skill of giving your fighters a little buff when playing against a higher tiered fighter squadron. I believe a captain skill could be implemented to give planes a fractional boost when facing higher tiered AA suite. It wouldn't have to automatically uptier your planes to that level, but give them a slight buff so they are not wiped clean in the instant they cross the AA bubble threshold of a higher tiered ship.

wp_ss_20190205_0002 (2).png

Edited by Capt_Ahab1776

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14 minutes ago, Codpiece_XI said:

I don't care for the new CV play at all. I much prefer the old way.

Please keep things on topic. That doesn't really address the balance issues people are saying exist. Most, however, don't really offer fixes, only negativity, so I figured it a good idea to get ideas from other players. If you do not like the current CVs, how would you improve them that you would like them?

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Played both, like both. The new style is exciting and can be challenging without being overwhelming, the old let you spread out and be more versatile over the whole map. That said there's always room for improvement:

  • Dive-bombers could use an HP buff. Not a lot, just like 10 or 15%. Enough that they don't keep losing planes more consistently than rocket fighters and torpedo bombers.
  • AA needs to be a bit less RNG based. Dodging flak is fun, but it can be nigh impossible at higher tiers. Plus the current system really removes a lot of agency from the AA ship, which is frustrating a lot of people.
  • Planes need to stay vulnerable longer after you hit "F" to recall. Recall spam really is too easy to abuse right now.
  • Do something with RDF. My initial thought is to make it detect the closest ship to the CARRIER, not your squadron, but I don't know if that would solve the problem without making a new one.
  • Make it easier to switch AA sectors. Just give us a couple of shortcut keys, that's all I ask.
  • Rein in Hakuryu's torpedo planes. Stealth dropping is a neat trick, but the 4 plane squadron is the obviously superior one right now and the "flying Shimakaze" is too powerful.
  • Do something with the US Tiny Tim rockets. Maybe give them a fixed accuracy that's more accurate than the HVARs initially, but less accurate than a fully aimed HVAR salvo. Something to represent the fact that they were supposed to be used at long range against hard targets while keeping them at least somewhat viable against destroyers.
  • Put the carrier's fighter consumable on less of a hair-trigger. Maybe have it activate when an AIRCRAFT (not just a ship) is 1-2km outside AA range.

Of course I also had some ideas on reworking the old system without resorting to the rework. For what it's worth they boiled down to:

  • Make squadron size and loadout options symmetrical across each tier, giving each carrier after a certain point an AS, DB heavy, TB heavy, and balanced loadout.
  • Remove strafing, but leave the option for fighters to disengage from a fight in an emergency.
  • Remove manual drops, make auto drops tighter and more accurate.
  • Even out AA damage, make less powerful AA ships more able to shoot down a plane or two while dialing back dedicated AA ships from being complete no-fly-zones.

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I'm not one for alot words, I would copy and paste the plane managment, flight, and AA system from Navyfield 1(except for that immune from AAW crap) While keeping the abiity to control multiple squadrons and my ship. I recommend not nuking it fully like navyfield did but do the following.

 

Get the screen from the old system back

Add a time limit for fuel. Scout planes and fighters with drop tanks have more time in the air. Same goes for Ammunition as we had before

Add Altitude control to dodge AA, or use energy tactics against slower fighters(Ex: HellCat vs Zero) but not the same as strafe.

Keep the AA sector or medium and small caliber AA, and increase there power abit. However Add a gun elevation setting combined with aiming for dealing with large caliber aa guns vs aircraft much like navyfield 1. 

Add a vision radius, with manually controlled scouts(despite said scouts have the lightest armor) launched from cruisers, battleships, and some specialized scouts from carriers.

I want to control my bloody ship at all times.

Squadron custimization (but not complete fighter mule or attack mule builds). Things like the amount of aircraft in a flight(the side effects being a larger flight being longer to load, the amount of aircraft ready on deck, the aircraft in the hanger.

Torpedo bombers can carry torps, ground based he bombs, or a AP alternative(for operations, or if you want to sink arizona historically speaking). Dive bombers can carry both ground based he bombs or use the AP dive bombs in there normal attack pattern. Fighters can carry Rockets, small bombs, or a fuel tank with a Weight penalty.

Aircraft come with attributes such as turn rate, climb rate, dive rate, energy retention, armor, speed at low altitude, mid altitude, high altitude. All small things detemining if its wise for wildcats to always dogfight zeros or boom and zoom them, for zeros to attack low flying torpedo bombers while dive bombers assault your carriers from above(Time to climb and attack because lost advantage), or on the contrary if the fight is at low altitude.

Bulge I recommend we keep, all the armor in navyfield had to be added to a ship, most builds did not do that for performance concerns.

Also on the subject of scouts, they are useful but light tools for the fleet. Cruisers can have around 4 (but NOT as consumbles. They would be treated as any other aircraft except fly alone and multiple can be sent out depending on the cruiser's/battleships capabilities. These should be your first means of contact but also easiest to go down, followed by light surface ships(destroyers/light cruisers)

The only thing I would keep from the current update would be the ability to add rockets to my fighters, maybe even light bombs and external fuel tanks.

 

A Good carrier does the follwoing things.

1. Provide Vision over the enemy team by contesting air superioty, allowing your fleets scouts to do there job.

2. Contest air superiroty to enemy fighters do not take out your scouts and attack aircraft

3. Attack the enemy in a varied manner.

4. Try not to die.

 

My objectives here is to provide a multipurpose way of dealing with a potential carrier rework while using methods tried by past similar games, but not totally going to there meta. As you can see I mentioned alot of "vision" or scouting ideas. The main purpose of the cv is not to scout, but provide air cover to scout and attack the opposing team. This is limited by time and position constraints on your squadrons, why surface ships will play a large role in meerly providing recon.

Bonus points to  increase the concealment on some ships to  make bbs and even ca's firing need a spotter, whether that be a ship or aircraft to send such information to the firing ship.

Maybe Pre WoWs + Navyfield 1 + Battlestationts Pacfiic/Midway had a kid we may get something

Now Maybe, just maybe we can bring back duel cv and find balance in the force this way.

 

Oh wait I can't bring my smart hat here. Too much rng, gimmicks and consumables is mind numbing. 

 

 

Edited by iR_Willow

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The new CV play with the 1 squad launch/attack limitation is unacceptable even if every available plane of that 1 type was allowed to attack at once rather than the current pin prick method. The old system allowed players to attack with combined weapons and it the new system is to stay then players should be allowed to launch/strike with combined groups and also be allowed to attach escort fighters to those groups.

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I played both old and new, I find it a lot more fun with the new setup. 

As far as the power of the AA guns that we have to face, its true that early in the game it can be border line suicidal to attack higher leveled ships, but if you spot them from a safe distance for long enough your team will generally hit them enough to damage the AA modules making them much more vulnerable.  You don't need to do damage as a CV to get good XP in a battle.  I find that with the new setup you have to play a battle in two phases.  The first phase is scouting and harassing DDs or other ships that go solo.  Phase two starts when all the ships spread out and have taken damage, at this point you can do some pretty decent damage without taking terrible losses

I went from a Ranger to a Lexi, but that's as far as i have gotten so far.  T10 battles are a little rough, but the strategy above still works.  I'm pretty sure that with the old system a T8 CV in a T10 match would quickly loose planes and become useless for the team, but the new system allows me to feel like i have a chance to make a contribution.

I would like to see an easier way to switch back to direct control of the ship, that autopilot when planes are in the air makes you pretty vulnerable to torps.  Maybe it's a concession to DDs that sneak through the lines, and they wonder why they get hunted!

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents, I like the new system! 

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On 2/6/2019 at 1:25 AM, Shoggoth_pinup said:

Please keep things on topic. That doesn't really address the balance issues people are saying exist. Most, however, don't really offer fixes, only negativity, so I figured it a good idea to get ideas from other players. If you do not like the current CVs, how would you improve them that you would like them?

I would return to the old CV play.

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I like the new style better.  With the old style, I felt like a squirrel on crack, trying to control my CV, 3-6 squadrons in the air, scout, provide air cover, make attacks, dodge AA, try and line up manual drops, attack other bombers, avoid strafe attacks, and oh crap, where’d that DD come from, 10 km from my ship!

The new system requires less ADHD to play,  but you can still usually contribute to the battle. Now, on to changes.  With the recent hotfix, things are looking a lot better.  AA could use a slight adjustment yet, but overall things look pretty good at the moment.

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3 hours ago, Codpiece_XI said:

I would return to the old CV play.

Basically this.  We're unlikely to a style that's more actually carrier play.  This current one is basically a flying DD, and in no way resembles how carrier work in the real world.  The irritating part is that I, personally, have balanced this sort of play in other games, and kept the old style play in a working environment where TURRETS didn't even exist, ships exchanged BROADSIDES. 

 

As far as I can see, the devs didn't even put the most basic effort into this.

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They new play style is no fun with little reward for your effort.  6/9 planes fly to a target and only 2/ 3 attack while the others get shot down. completely not needed.  the balance that was missing was how t4 and t5 cv lost manual drop usn cv better than ijn at low tier but then the number of ijn squadrons op usn at high tier.WG lost this player after three years of playing I wont be any longer and with that neither will my wallet.  My Enterprise and Saipan were buffed and understandably so I want the Kaga and was waiting for it to come back along with Graf. Now dasvadanya time to find a new game.  if I wanted to fly planes in a simulator ill go play X wing or Tie fighter or one of the many good flight simulator games from years ago.  The best part of old CV play was the use of fighters to scout bombers to go after dds and torps to go after cv and bb  where main guns fire from once ever 6 seconds to every 30 seconds one attack with a cv is a two to three minute affair if your lucky you had to multi task between the mini map your plane types and targets.  Now  its just fly one type attack a target or two then f key and pick next group even controlling the CV to escape that dd that gets across the board is gone.  Was a blast when I would dodge torps in a bouge and finish of the dd with my secondaries, now I don't even get to steer my own ship. 

Edited by marcoest

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14 hours ago, thegreenbaron said:

This current one is basically a flying DD

Yeah pretty much. I play a fair amount of DD so I'm playing this about the same way I would a extremely fast high detection range DD. I will sometimes actually use island cover on my approach to screen AA in torp bombers and attack planes and I find it similar to doing the same with DD. I do like it more than the old version where up tiered CV really felt useless because of either a more skilled CV opponent or high tier AA. This version its just AA can be more of a pain than the MM itself sometimes. They are working on that so hopefully the balance gets better and eventually people will not be specing for AA as much as they are now.

In terms of surface ship play in relation to CV I'm not entirely sure. I don't really encounter a lot of CV because I usually try to not go off alone in anything other than a DD and then I run with AA off to lower my air detection range.  Actually I find the inevitable AA clusters that form are perfect targets for DD torps. I torp the formation and then they have to scatter and be targets for my team's CV or risk getting hit with more of my torps. Seriously, new CVs and DDs should be best friends working together to systemically destroy targets. As a CA/CL or BB I tend to be paired off with other ships for stronger AA but I try to keep there groups small so that I'm less tempting for torp attacks. In these ships I can afford to take a hit from a CV about as well as from any other class so I treat it about the same.

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+1/-1 MM

Overhaul fighter consumables so you can counter play the opposing CV and protect your allies

Remove rdf from planes

Change aircraft spotting so it works like the new radar (reveals on the mini map for the team, and *maybe* after x seconds reveals the ships on the game client, but resets if the ship goes dark)

I think that's a good start within what they've got.

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