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Paul_Revere735

Playerbase thinks AA means Aircraft Immunity, change my mind

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So after watching the videos of a couple of CCs forwarding their agenda, and reading the posts on the forum, I'm legitimately curious on where the AA effectiveness beliefs are coming from.  Why is it that many of the posters on the forum, and a good deal of the salty players that I see in game, believe that if they are fully specced in AA they should be immune to aircraft?  Is it simply ignorance (and I don't use that word to be caustic) of how the new mechanics work?

For starters, I am not saying that AA in its current form is correct.  I don't like the RNG of flak clouds.  Cool concept, but I don't believe it is there yet.  When I'm playing Midway, I shouldn't be able to make it through the flak to a Yamato because RNG hates him and leaves gaps big enough to fly between, while a couple minutes later have half my squad's HP obliterated from a Hseinyang that I couldn't even spot until the flak was already in the air.  Not saying DDs shouldn't shoot down planes with that, just giving an actual gameplay example.  By no means am I saying that the current iteration is correct, but I want to know why you think the way you do.  iChase put out a video saying the sky is falling and you need 3 AA cruisers to not be completely defenseless, which is utterly laughable as his planes lose 3/4 of their HP in 1 attack run, he is using his heal cooldown, and waiting for planes to replenish before launching another attack.

Speccing full survivability in a BB ONLY reduces your chance of catching fire by 15%, through captain skills and modules.  Nowhere does it say "this BB shall not burn."  It is there to help mitigate the damage, not make you functionally immune to it.  Coincidentally there are more skills and modules already in place that boost AA.  Why is it that many believe that they should be in the highest dps ship and be immune to attack from 1/4 of the ship types in the game?

"I'm not shooting down planes this is completely broken, I am doing nothing to the CV."  Completely false.  In the old system the only way we could see what we were doing was with the plane counter.  I assure you, NO MATTER WHAT THE CV DOES, if he is within your AA range, the squad is constantly taking damage.  You are doing something.  You are weakening the squad.  Once the squad is weakened, that next flak burst will have a huge effect and you will see a big chunk of planes fall.  Now, if the CV decides not to hang out in your AA aura, well that's kinda smart play on their part.  No different than it was in the old system, where the only time planes were in your aura were when they were attacking you.   Screaming in all chat that your AA does nothing while I'm watching my squad's HP chip away only makes you look like a fool.  AA damage counters were added for a reason, and they look like slot machines when planes are in range.

So please, explain to me why you believe that your Mino or Worcester or DM should be functionally immune to carrier attack.  Why do you believe that you should be a no fly zone that you drive around the map?  World of Tanks sucked when you were in a tank that flat out couldn't pen another tank.  There are some tanks that cannot do any damage whatsoever to other tanks they see in the MM.  Before that question gets flipped on me, yes I believe every ship should be able to damage every other ship it sees in the MM in some capacity.  I don't believe that there should just be things that cannot be attacked.

Edited by Paul_Revere735
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1 minute ago, Paul_Revere735 said:

Why is it that many of the posters on the forum, and a good deal of the salty players that I see in game, believe that if they are fully specced in AA they should be immune to aircraft?

Because it used to be that way, unless the CV stacked 3 or 4 or 5 squadrons (i.e. all the DB and the TB and maybe the fighters together) and overwhelmed an AA ship.

It used to be that binary, and, really, high-tier CVs were that binary too.  If a decent CV player wanted you dead, you were.

 

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The issue isn't with AA being weak, it's with AA being too RNG-heavy, which WG is already working to address. When Continuous AA does "chip damage" and Flak AA is avoidable, it puts the onus of evading AA on the CV player while the surface ship captain's only option is "Pray RNG puts up an unavoidable wall of flak, or the CV slips up." Against a good-enough CV player, the chance of either of those things happening are very, very low, hence giving the impression that AA does nothing.

Most people I've talked to want more consistent AA with more consistent results, not total immunity to strike aircraft.

Good job straw-manning the other side, though.

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Most people I talk to have a Jingles level of knowledge about game mechanics.

It's very shallow, and there is no understanding of how the game actually works.

BBs shoot AP always! (Except they shouldnt)

Des Moines is an AA cruiser! (Except it isnt)

CVs have infinite planes! (Except they dont)

 

Most people just grab the opinions of the most popular CC or friend and play according to that 'knowledge'. They dont think for themselves, they dont educate themselves about game mechanics...they just hurry up, push battle, and then complain that real life is harming them for relying on ignorance.

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5 minutes ago, WuYixiang said:

The issue isn't with AA being weak, it's with AA being too RNG-heavy, which WG is already working to address. When Continuous AA does "chip damage" and Flak AA is avoidable, it puts the onus of evading AA on the CV player while the surface ship captain's only option is "Pray RNG puts up an unavoidable wall of flak, or the CV slips up." Against a good-enough CV player, the chance of either of those things happening are very, very low, hence giving the impression that AA does nothing.

Most people I've talked to want more consistent AA with more consistent results, not total immunity to strike aircraft.

Good job straw-manning the other side, though.

Not a straw man at all.  I've never been a CV main, yet put in a lot of games to see how it works so I know best to deal with it.  This is what I see game after game from the playerbase or on the forums, so explain why that's the belief.

I'm all for a better system, I don't like the RNG playing CV any more than I like it playing a BB/CA/DD.

 

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1 minute ago, Paul_Revere735 said:

Not a straw man at all.  I've never been a CV main, yet put in a lot of games to see how it works so I know best to deal with it.  This is what I see game after game from the playerbase or on the forums, so explain why that's the belief.

I'm all for a better system, I don't like the RNG playing CV any more than I like it playing a BB/CA/DD.

 

What do you think balance looks like then?  If the absolute best AA that can be fielded is incapable of even self-defense there is no AA role.

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Just now, Valna said:

What do you think balance looks like then?  If the absolute best AA that can be fielded is incapable of even self-defense there is no AA role.

Which ship is the actual best AA that can be fielded right now?

I.e. which ship has only long and mid range aura with lots of AA guns in each aura?

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5 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Which ship is the actual best AA that can be fielded right now?

I.e. which ship has only long and mid range aura with lots of AA guns in each aura?

Not atlanta or texas both are dead and perma spotted.Also molotov is dead.

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Shouldn’t your name be Steven Crowder with a title like that?  :Smile_veryhappy:

I, for one,  don’t think a fully AA spec cruiser should be “immune” to planes.   But I also don’t think a fully AA spec cruiser with the AA focused to the correct side and hitting the DFAA consumable should be more or less toothless against them either.  And I’ve seen that exact scenario play out quite a bit in the last week.   It seems RNG based more than anything.  At times you DO shoot down a ton of planes doing this.  Other times you shoot down 1 or 2.

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Nope.

But AA for ships with strong AA should significantly reduce the effectiveness of AA attacks against you.  Today it doesn't do that.

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1 minute ago, Valna said:

What do you think balance looks like then?  If the absolute best AA that can be fielded is incapable of even self-defense there is no AA role.

What's your definition of self defense?  To me the Arkansas Beta is incapable of self defense, as it has no AA guns at all.  Yeah, that's completely at the mercy of the CV, and that isn't right.

I just finished a game where I had to deal with a Worcester in a cap.  I don't know that he was full AA spec, but he at least knew his sector controls and used DFAA appropriately.  I got 1 rocket attack off, and the squad was at about 1/3 of it's HP.  I had not lost any aircraft, but I had lost a significant amount of health.  I had to stop attacking him and bring my planes back, and wait for them to be able to go up again, as that wasn't a trade that I was willing to continue making.  So 1 attack run on a heavy AA ship cost me 3/4 of my damage potential with that squadron.  

Incapable of self defense is a complete fallacy.  Had it been a Mogami in the cap, yes, I would have pushed the attack on.  That is no different than if I was in a Hindenburg, and there was a Yamato or a Bismarck in the cap.  One hurts a lot worse to deal with and affects the decision making.

If you don't set sectors, you don't use DFAA, and you just want to use the Ctrl+click set it and forget it AA of old, well then you're going to get punished.

What do I think balance looks like?  I think the previously mentioned fight was pretty balanced.  He was built to deal with me, and cut my damage by 75% because I chose to attack an AA cruiser.   I had good RNG on my rockets and did about 7k damage to him.  7k.  For maybe a minute and a half of effort.  If you had to shoot at another ship and knew you would only do 7k over a minute and a half would you keep working on that ship?

 I don't have any more of a problem with a Gearing seeing a Kagero as prey any more than I do a Midway seeing a Mogami as prey. Vs BBs, I don't think its unreasonable to say I should be able to get 50% of my attacks off without sacrificing the entire squadron, if they are specced for AA.  This is no different than a Montana sacrificing 50% of its firepower to be bow on, still able to do damage yet mitigating the incoming damage as well.  Against an unprotected ship off alone without much AA?  Yeah.  You made that choice to be in that situation, that's not the fault of the game or the CV.

In my opinion, that Wooster fight is fine.  Thats the concept that just isn't being grasped right now.  AA isn't making you immune to self defense, it is mitigating the potential damage of the carrier.  No AA would have let me light a couple fires and do 20k or so to the Wooster.  His AA prevented damage by deterring further attack, not by obliterating planes.

Let's not let how broken the Hakuryu is right now with its torp spam and immunity timer abuse cloud the discussion, before that comes up.  That is getting fixed, and rightly so.

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14 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Nope.

But AA for ships with strong AA should significantly reduce the effectiveness of AA attacks against you.  Today it doesn't do that.

False.  The CV is forced to recall his planes if he doesn't want to lose them, which in turn reduced the number of attacks you face, and does mitigate the potential damage you take.

Or he/she throws their planes away in continued attacks, and is forced to wait for that squadron to replenish, which for midway it is over a minute for each plane to replenish.  If he ditches 12 planes into you spamming attacks, thats over half the game for those planes to regenerate that were lost.  If you see a squadron hit you once and F key away, thats 75% of his damage he/she chose not to do to you.

Edited by Paul_Revere735
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AA should kill all planes on the map at once or it's broken.

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And what is the point of AA and a AA build if it doesnt stop CVs from killing you? 

 

You cant run from CVs because planes are faster than ships. You cant hide from planes because planes can reach anywhere on the map. You can fight back becaus ethe CV is sitting acroos the map. 

 

And now you are saying that AA should not make ships invulnerable to planes? What should i do against a CV? Cry? I cant run and hide, i cant fight back and i cant defend my ships... *** yay balance ***... 

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24 minutes ago, Paul_Revere735 said:

I just finished a game where I had to deal with a Worcester in a cap.  I don't know that he was full AA spec, but he at least knew his sector controls and used DFAA appropriately.  I got 1 rocket attack off, and the squad was at about 1/3 of it's HP.  I had not lost any aircraft, but I had lost a significant amount of health.  I had to stop attacking him and bring my planes back, and wait for them to be able to go up again, as that wasn't a trade that I was willing to continue making.  So 1 attack run on a heavy AA ship cost me 3/4 of my damage potential with that squadron. 

So... you pressed F and came back with an other squadron. You did list 3/4 of the damage potential of that squadron for this run, but you didn't lose that much damage potential in all since you were ready with some Torpedo few seconds later. Not that the current system is bad, but the ''F'' immunity makes it quite useless to heavily spec for AA. And the rng of flak is not great. The news hot fix may well make it better for game balance.

 

 

And true, a Mino alone shouldn't be immune. But CC did some test and to ''stop'' a Midway strike before the attacks, it needed 2 fully spec Minotaur with the proper sector and a fully spec Worcester with defensive AA. Let's say it shouldn't be that hard.

Edited by Y_Nagato

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13 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

AA should kill all planes on the map at once or it's broken.

That's not enough. AA should cause the CV to instantly sink and the player should be immediately disconnected from the server and their account should be perma banned.

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25 minutes ago, Paul_Revere735 said:

What's your definition of self defense?  To me the Arkansas Beta is incapable of self defense, as it has no AA guns at all.  Yeah, that's completely at the mercy of the CV, and that isn't right.

I just finished a game where I had to deal with a Worcester in a cap.  I don't know that he was full AA spec, but he at least knew his sector controls and used DFAA appropriately.  I got 1 rocket attack off, and the squad was at about 1/3 of it's HP.  I had not lost any aircraft, but I had lost a significant amount of health.  I had to stop attacking him and bring my planes back, and wait for them to be able to go up again, as that wasn't a trade that I was willing to continue making.  So 1 attack run on a heavy AA ship cost me 3/4 of my damage potential with that squadron.  

Incapable of self defense is a complete fallacy.  Had it been a Mogami in the cap, yes, I would have pushed the attack on.  That is no different than if I was in a Hindenburg, and there was a Yamato or a Bismarck in the cap.  One hurts a lot worse to deal with and affects the decision making.

If you don't set sectors, you don't use DFAA, and you just want to use the Ctrl+click set it and forget it AA of old, well then you're going to get punished.

What do I think balance looks like?  I think the previously mentioned fight was pretty balanced.  He was built to deal with me, and cut my damage by 75% because I chose to attack an AA cruiser.   I had good RNG on my rockets and did about 7k damage to him.  7k.  For maybe a minute and a half of effort.  If you had to shoot at another ship and knew you would only do 7k over a minute and a half would you keep working on that ship?

 I don't have any more of a problem with a Gearing seeing a Kagero as prey any more than I do a Midway seeing a Mogami as prey. Vs BBs, I don't think its unreasonable to say I should be able to get 50% of my attacks off without sacrificing the entire squadron, if they are specced for AA.  This is no different than a Montana sacrificing 50% of its firepower to be bow on, still able to do damage yet mitigating the incoming damage as well.  Against an unprotected ship off alone without much AA?  Yeah.  You made that choice to be in that situation, that's not the fault of the game or the CV.

In my opinion, that Wooster fight is fine.  Thats the concept that just isn't being grasped right now.  AA isn't making you immune to self defense, it is mitigating the potential damage of the carrier.  No AA would have let me light a couple fires and do 20k or so to the Wooster.  His AA prevented damage by deterring further attack, not by obliterating planes.

Let's not let how broken the Hakuryu is right now with its torp spam and immunity timer abuse cloud the discussion, before that comes up.  That is getting fixed, and rightly so.

The problem, that you are clearly not seeing is as Hakuryu you see everything as prey.

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2 minutes ago, Rouxi said:

That's not enough. AA should cause the CV to instantly sink and the player should be immediately disconnected from the server and their account should be perma banned.

Yep

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Its the feeling of helplessness against planes that everyone hates. 

I was in a Monarch BB a couple of days ago, in a T10 match, and got completely stomped by planes and had no recourse at all.  I only managed to get 3 volleys off before I was dead.  That was in part because most of the ships that I could see were out of my range, so I had to move closer and that took a bit of time at the beginning.  I tried to get closer, but the planes completely engulfed me even though I tried evasive maneuvers, did focus the AA to the incoming side, and put up a fighter plane.  I shot down no planes.  I would get hit by a torp or two on the first pass and then have to worry about the 2nd or 3rd pass if there was a flood, before using my repair.  Then, the repair was barely back to working and I would be under attack again.  Meanwhile, I was getting set on fire by cruisers after my repair was used.  So, I was on fire forever because I had to use my repair on floods, and I couldn't get away from it because the planes would just find me and light me up again.  I was completely helpless and had no fun in this game.  I wasn't alone either.  I stuck close to a Montana and a Buffalo for some AA help.  It didn't help.  The Montana actually went down before I did, but that was partly because his evasive maneuvers caused him to become a bigger target by going broadside, so he got lit up by everyone he was in range of.  

Its not that we want immunity from planes, but we at least want to have a chance to play before we are smacked out of the game, especially if we haven't had a chance to even get in the game.  

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14 minutes ago, Xlap said:

And what is the point of AA and a AA build if it doesnt stop CVs from killing you? 

Wow, that sounds a lot like the thread title... "Playerbase thinks AA means Aircraft Immunity".

The answer is, AA talents and builds should work to the same degree that anti-fire or anti-torpedo builds do. Vigilance doesn't make you immune to torpedoes, it makes it easier to deal with them. Fire Prevention doesn't stop you from getting burned down, it makes you take less damage and have more time to respond.

So no, AA should NOT stop CVs from killing you, it should make it more difficult, costly, and time-consuming to do so. And they do. You can argue they're not making a big enough difference, or what have you, but the idea that you should be invincible to planes because you took AA skills is not correct. The fact that you used to be able to do this in the old version was actually the broken part.

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12 minutes ago, Xlap said:

And what is the point of AA and a AA build if it doesnt stop CVs from killing you? 

 

You cant run from CVs because planes are faster than ships. You cant hide from planes because planes can reach anywhere on the map. You can fight back becaus ethe CV is sitting acroos the map. 

 

And now you are saying that AA should not make ships invulnerable to planes? What should i do against a CV? Cry? I cant run and hide, i cant fight back and i cant defend my ships... *** yay balance ***... 

What's the point of a fire prevention build on a BB if it doesn't stop cruisers from HE spamming you?  an AA build DOES stop the CV from attacking you, damaging the squadron causes less attacks.  This is exactly the same as the old system really.  Squad of 6 TBs, you shoot down 3 before they drop, you deal with 3 torps.  Today, you do enough damage to call a recall after the first drop, you deal with 4 torps (assuming Midway) instead of 12.  How is that not significantly impacting the CV's ability to kill you?

I'll give you full immunity to planes once DDs are immune from all shells 8" and below when fired from a platform that carries radar, because the DD specced in the smoke talent.  The smoke cloud now stops all incoming fire.  The DD can't hide from the radar.  It can reach him through islands.  He can't fight back either because the cruiser is behind a rock and the team is shooting at him.  Sound fair?  That is what you are effectively saying.  

5 minutes ago, Y_Nagato said:

So... you pressed F and came back with an other squadron. You did list 3/4 of the damage potential of that squadron for this run, but you didn't lose that much damage potential in all since you were ready with some Torpedo few seconds later. Not that the current system is bad, but the ''F'' immunity makes it quite useless to heavily spec for AA. And the rng of flak is not great. The news hot fix may well make it better for game balance.

 

 

And true, a Mino alone shouldn't be immune. But CC did some test and to ''stop'' a Midway strike before the attacks, it needed 2 fully spec Minotaur with the proper sector and a fully spec Worcester with defensive AA. Let's say it shouldn't be that hard.

I did come back with another squadron.  After about a minute and some change of flight time to get there.  I did lose that opportunity for damage.  There is a 20 minute time limit to the game, if you aren't doing damage, then your DPS is going down.  Nevermind the fact that I wouldn't be able to return with the best squad for the job, I would have to use a lesser option such as TB or DB, or use a partial squad of aircraft, which has less HP, and is that much easier to shoot down.

I saw iChase's video.  Watch it again.  Watch the HP bar of the squadron drop to 8k from around 27k after the first attack run.  Those yellow planes are 1 flak burst from disappearing.  You will also see his heal being used, which is on a 3 minute timer, just to make his second attack.  When his torp runs are doing 9k damage.  He's talking about evaporating the squadron before it has a chance to attack.  So to make it an 11v12 fight, you need 3 ships parked together, is rewording what he is saying.  In the 42 seconds between his first and second pass with that squadron, a DM would have fired 7 AP salvos at the same Mino.  Which one is a bigger threat to the ship?  Watch what he does, and pay less attention to his bias on the subject.

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If you are a surface ship and you are getting attacked by planes its not easy to see that its hurting the CV, especially now that the CV is often back in a short time to attack you again. A ship being attacked by planes and dodging shells from enemy ships is not often going to notice that they were only attacked once or twice before the planes left and getting smacked with a bunch of dot feels like a lot more punishment than shooting down 2 or three planes.

 

A side issue is that if an AA build is not stopping attacks is it really worth speccing for AA instead of survivability which will help deal with the dot? Especially since you cant change the AA rang to give your AA a chance to help other ships.

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1 minute ago, 1nv4d3rZ1m said:

If you are a surface ship and you are getting attacked by planes its not easy to see that its hurting the CV, especially now that the CV is often back in a short time to attack you again. A ship being attacked by planes and dodging shells from enemy ships is not often going to notice that they were only attacked once or twice before the planes left and getting smacked with a bunch of dot feels like a lot more punishment than shooting down 2 or three planes.

 

A side issue is that if an AA build is not stopping attacks is it really worth speccing for AA instead of survivability which will help deal with the dot? Especially since you cant change the AA rang to give your AA a chance to help other ships.

Good question...

Everyone is rushing to AA builds, but that might not be the right answer.

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20 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Its the feeling of helplessness against planes that everyone hates. 

I was in a Monarch BB a couple of days ago, in a T10 match, and got completely stomped by planes and had no recourse at all.  I only managed to get 3 volleys off before I was dead.  That was in part because most of the ships that I could see were out of my range, so I had to move closer and that took a bit of time at the beginning.  I tried to get closer, but the planes completely engulfed me even though I tried evasive maneuvers, did focus the AA to the incoming side, and put up a fighter plane.  I shot down no planes.  I would get hit by a torp or two on the first pass and then have to worry about the 2nd or 3rd pass if there was a flood, before using my repair.  Then, the repair was barely back to working and I would be under attack again.  Meanwhile, I was getting set on fire by cruisers after my repair was used.  So, I was on fire forever because I had to use my repair on floods, and I couldn't get away from it because the planes would just find me and light me up again.  I was completely helpless and had no fun in this game.  I wasn't alone either.  I stuck close to a Montana and a Buffalo for some AA help.  It didn't help.  The Montana actually went down before I did, but that was partly because his evasive maneuvers caused him to become a bigger target by going broadside, so he got lit up by everyone he was in range of.  

Its not that we want immunity from planes, but we at least want to have a chance to play before we are smacked out of the game, especially if we haven't had a chance to even get in the game.  

Fair enough.  Let me ask you this then, if you were isolated again, yet this time facing a Yamato, would you have expected a different outcome?  Do you believe you would have been able to take down the Yamato with little damage to your ship?  Would it be different if it was a Conqueror?  How does the cruiser feel that gets DD spotted and gets Dev Struck by a Montana in the first couple minutes?  He probably wanted a chance to get in the game too.

It sounds like there was some team play involved, that the CV decided to force out a damage control, and then called target and the cruisers assisted him.  He made the decision to force the Montana into either taking chip torpedo damage and a possible flood, or to turn broadside to his team.  That's smart play, thats not insane damage.

I do understand the helpless feeling.  Being a DD main with the sheer amount of radar that has been introduced, if there are a couple radar cruisers that want you dead, they chain it and hunt you and theres nothing you can do but run away and hope for help.  That's the state of the game, and its not just limited to CVs, that is just the newest iteration of the same dynamic of being able to pressure someone.

Being bottom tier makes it a lot tougher.  I have started playing the Ranger to get a more complete picture.  Attacking into T8 AA?  Yeah.  That's just about as fun and engaging as what you mentioned.

Edited by Paul_Revere735

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