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Soshi_Sone

Grinding the T4 CV Experience and Feedback

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I've been grinding both the T4 carriers.  Here's my feedback.

1.  Well suited to learning the ship (interface and tactics).

2.  Limited carry ability.

3.  Limited "screw the team" ability. (corollary to 2).

4.  Extends play time; more games run to time out.

5.  Overall, balanced if (1) to (4) above are the goal.

 

In battles where one team or the other has a significant non-carrier skill advantage, the carrier player is unable to carry the day.  This is not a bad thing, due to the corollary effect.  In battles where one team has a poor carrier player, the CV skill gap won't decide the game.  Bottom line is T4 carriers simply can't produce enough damage or affect the game sufficiently to dominate in any significant way.  Why is this a good thing at T4?  T4 CVs can't be used for seal clubbing to such a degree that they can carry a match. 

The side effect to the above situation, is games tend to be extended.  The slow nature of low tiers allow CVs to hide or run the back line and continue to do damage even in a lost cause.  Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, as it gives those players more sorties to learn the game.  But I can see it as a frustration point to the other players who have  the game won, and must either cap out or time out to win.

And in some games, all that are left are the CVs that are collectively incapable of dominating the other CVs.  Again, nothing wrong with this.  Good practice.  No alpha strikes.

Once I've made it through the grind, I feel confident, I'll be ready for T6.

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone
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Hello Captain,

Thank you for sharing your experiences while grinding the CVs.

Please let us know how it goes when you move to the next tier.

Thanks!

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3 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Why is this a good thing at T4?  T4 CVs can't be used for seal clubbing to such a degree that they can carry a match. 

I think this could possibly change as CV drivers get better and learn to do damage more efficiently with fewer losses, especially since there are T3 ships that a T4 carrier sees which have no AA whatsoever (e.g. Bogatyr). Some of those people might not be all that happy.

Nevertheless, most T4 CV drivers aren't going to want to stay at T4 for any length of time if they can avoid it, because T4 is generally no longer valid for mission rewards unless you're a newbie and/or haven't finished the early parts of Science of Victory yet. (It's the primary reason I free XP'd to the Bogue before the change; if I was going to be playing with a 1:1:1 carrier that can only autodrop, at least let it count for something.)

Overall, however, I can't find anything to disagree with here. I half-ground, half-FXP'd to the Independence because at the time they had removed torpedoes from the T4's, and also if T5 was disappearing then I needed a T6 for missions that demand carriers.  But I know for sure I'm not ready for T6 Randoms on a daily level, and with the exception of co-op matches to earn things like spotting ribbons (easy to do in a CV), I probably won't be driving my Ranger much until I've ground through Hosho to Ryujo (and Hermes to Furious). And given that British carriers are coming, I might not even have got Hosho except for two things:

1) Pre-rework she was 6700XP to grind off the Myogi C hull, and I just happened to be grinding the Myogi in 0.7.12 and got some really good Random games that made it go fast.

2) Post-rework, she is now 11,000 XP to grind off the Isokaze. Now the Isokaze was not IMO a bad ship, and I had fun in her, but having already ground out both the Minekaze and Mutsuki, I did not feel inclined to buy her back and optimise her just to grind out yet another 11K XP on her - or to spend that much FXP, when I could easily grind/spend 4300 less. Easier to get her pre-rework and have her there for when/if I decide to take up Japanese carriers.

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This is why I sold back down to the Langley.

I need to figure out how the new CVs work and the tier4 environment was always going to be the best place to do that.

I have the Ranger researched...and I'll buy it when I think I'm ready to head into higher tier play.

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18 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I think this could possibly change as CV drivers get better and learn to do damage more efficiently with fewer losses, especially since there are T3 ships that a T4 carrier sees which have no AA whatsoever (e.g. Bogatyr). Some of those people might not be all that happy.

T4 carrier performance is not currently limited by skill or plane losses, it's hard capped by the crappy quality of your munitions and flooding RNG by design. Once you've learned how to fly and the basics of aiming, they want you out of that tier so you stop scaring the new players with torpedo alerts that end up hitting for 3k.

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1 minute ago, Edgecase said:

T4 carrier performance is not currently limited by skill or plane losses, it's hard capped by the crappy quality of your munitions and flooding RNG by design.

LOLOL, you might have a point but I'm still at the stage where my damage input is hard-capped by my ability (or more correctly, my lack thereof) to deliver ordnance. I've hit stationary, defenceless Omahas with Hosho dive bombers for 5K in the training room, but that and even T4 co-op play are worlds apart.

What isn't modelled by damage you do or ships you sink is the feeling of helplessness you can engender in players who have no AA whatsoever and not even the faint hope that a golden-BB hit will bring down even one attacking airplane. I've even shot down enemy aircraft in my Vampire pre-rework, and that thing is not exactly known for its ability to murder aircraft. Just being able to shoot back, regardless of result, makes an enormous difference to your morale in a game where a CV is present.

4 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Once you've learned how to fly and the basics of aiming, they want you out of that tier so you stop scaring the new players with torpedo alerts that end up hitting for 3k.

Got no problem with this.

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Climbing the tiers will be interesting right now, as your ability to do *anything* in a match is wildly influenced by your luck in the matchmaker.  If you're high tier as a CV, then you can adjust for AA fire and more or less be productive in a match. If you're low tier, stand by to have your squadrons brutally wiped, possibly before you can get off a single attack run.   The only CV issues anyone seems concerned with right now are based more or less on tier 10 issues, specifically the Hakuryu.  No one is addressing the pain of trying to grind through the Ranger/Ryujo and Lex/Shokaku and the balance of non-tier 10 carriers versus higher/lower tier AA. 

Edited by BitPlayerCOH
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3 minutes ago, BitPlayerCOH said:

If you're low tier, stand by to have your squadrons brutally wiped, possibly before you can get off a single attack run.

LOL, first game in the new Ranger to knock off the snowflake, I thought I had bought ALL the things before the rework and would still have ALL the things after, but for some reason my torpedo bombers were still biplanes and I was in a Tier 8 match. I might just as well have brought the Langley. I have since paid for the Devastators, and while they are better, I am still glad that we do not YET have player-directed fighters in the rework.

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Maybe they could make the non-flak AA percentage based and not HP based, to sort of levelize AA vs aircraft efficiency. Make if completely dependend on the type/number of guns and and modules/capt skills/etc the planes may have.  The ability to change your planes' altitude could help too. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

LOLOL, you might have a point but I'm still at the stage where my damage input is hard-capped by my ability (or more correctly, my lack thereof) to deliver ordnance. I've hit stationary, defenceless Omahas with Hosho dive bombers for 5K in the training room, but that and even T4 co-op play are worlds apart.

Welllll, if I'm being honest, the (accurate) lesson they're currently delivering is that you should never use dive bombers because they're crap. Especially the USN ones.

 

24 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

What isn't modelled by damage you do or ships you sink is the feeling of helplessness you can engender in players who have no AA whatsoever and not even the faint hope that a golden-BB hit will bring down even one attacking airplane.

This is the crux of the current CV freakout. The AA system is crappy and gives players only a laughable amount of agency, so the perception is of being helpless to fight back. Unsurprisingly, this makes people super mad.

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I found that the planes to use in T4 are the rocket planes. The other 2 are more token than anything else.

I'm not earning much XP, but... the biggest influence is keeping DD's spotted for your team to kill. Once the DD's are dead, your team gains a whole lot of traction. Rocket planes are the biggest attribute to your team, since they are so much faster than the other 2 choices.  It's a trade off playing this way, though. Your WR will likely be very high, but your XP gain and Damage are going to be very low; so the grind is gonna be a lot longer, than focusing on damage, alone.

Personally, I think the spotting issue of CV's should be transferred to a CV consumable plane. (kinda like radar but not able to see thru smoke, and a stationary bubble; active time would need to be worked out.) The idea would be that long distance transitions need a larger radio, that fighters aren't typically equipped with... or something....

I don't have many battles in a CV, but now that I just unlocked the Pan-Asia Commander, I can waste time in T4... a bit more; and do some more CV grinding.

 

Oh.. btw... hot fix is incoming....

Facebook blog

 

Edited by Hydra_360ci

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16 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

The AA system is crappy and gives players only a laughable amount of agency, so the perception is of being helpless to fight back.

I find it ironic that BOTH sides are screaming about how helpless they are... except Hakuryu players, whom WG is (rightly it seems) about to rein in rather hard.

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6 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I find it ironic that BOTH sides are screaming about how helpless they are... except Hakuryu players, whom WG is (rightly it seems) about to rein in rather hard.

Mmm. Except that the CV players who are currently screaming that are basically wrong. With correct play, the 0.8.0 AA system is nearly perfectly defeatable.

Oh, or they might be playing American carriers. Those defeat themselves. :cap_book:

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I came back to wows after 2 months just to play the carrier rework . I watch some Flamu and others videos to have a better idea how to play and decided to have a go with both the Langley and the Hosho.. My first 10 +/-games were complete crap. Averaging around 15k damage and below 20% wr. I was so bad that in the first day that when i saw a domination match i would use the attack aircraft  on my Hosho to attack the enemy dds near the caps. I have no idea what are those attacking planes are doing in the Hosho. The moment i decided to use only torpedo squadrons and target only lonely cruisers or BBs is where i finally started to see the big numbers.

My intial thoughts:

- I had 2 games in the Hosho where i made 100k 2 kills and the other 90k damage 2kills both games a win. The exp won was around 900 and 800. I have no idea why the exp won by carriers is so low.

- Don't know why but the New York BBs have crazy AA . I tried everything , maybe i had unlucky RNG against them but they melt planes easily.

- If i see a Ishizuchi , Charleston , St. Louis or other ship with crapAA sailing alone they are dead. Free damage. They can make my life harder and make me waste important minutes but they are going to die.

- I am now above 40k average damage in the Hosho and 50% wr. I think it is possible with my skills to get 50K average damage and 60% wr in the Hosho only with torpedo squadrons. But it is very important to target lonely targets and press F key if you think they are going to be killed.

- Unfortanely i can't have the same  opinion about the Langley. The Langley advantage is that all squadrons are ok choice to use but the damage they do in comparison with only the torpedo squadrons in the Hosho it seems lower in the long run and this i think is because RNG imo. You can have the perfect aim with a torpedo squadron and you know that you will not miss the target, you can have the perfect aim with a rocket squadron and then RNG shows up and says nope. Maybe at higher tiers with more rockets per squadron the american carriers can be a good choice but at tier 4 my opinion the Hosho is better.

- Always be careful with moving your carrier near islands . You want to be close as possible to the action but you also want to give enough room for the carrier to move and not get stuck. I lost games in my first day because of that. And give enough room for the carrier to turn around and retreat if needed. You don't want to retreat sailing in reverse.

- If possible always aim the bow of your carrier to the action . This is very important at this tier because the planes are slow to get where you want so every second is important.

- If your team is rushing enemy cvs without support and you are close to them , attack with them. They will give you AA cover and you will give them fighter squadrons. And of course the more near you are to them faster it is to keep them spotted for your team to kill them. Unfortanely this works well with Hosho , Langley is to slow.

- If your carrier is sunk , don't attack. I think you have around 3 minutes before your planes are forced to run away. So keep those targets spotted for your team in the first 2 minutes.

 

So in the end i want to say i am enjoying the carrier rework. It was a difficult learning in the first games but now i can imagine griding the japonese carrier tech tree. Unfortanely i can't tell the same about the americans at tier 4. I think they improve at higher tiers but in the Langley at tier 4 the RNG takes a big impact in the damage they can do. And of course the british carriers are coming, and from what i saw they could be more interesting to play in comparison with the americans.

 

Sorry for my poor english , is not my native language.

 

 

 

Edited by _no_one_
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16 minutes ago, _no_one_ said:

Sorry for my poor english , is not my native language.

More than good enough to get your point across.

One thing I can say for sure - there is a big difference between watching someone else do it and doing it yourself, and IMO this gap is MUCH bigger for carriers (and especially rework carriers) than any other ship type. Mastering the manual drop and the strafe was essential for successful higher-level RTS CV play, I could never get that right in the time available, and I wasn't sure that I ever would. This way you are concentrating on far fewer things (the fate of your carrier and ONE air group), and that makes it somewhat easier from my perspective.

48 minutes ago, Edgecase said:

Except that the CV players who are currently screaming that are basically wrong.

I made no claim as to the correctness of the screaming; I only stated what I heard.  :Smile_trollface:

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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Good write ups, guys! 

My approach has been aligned with what Soshi is doing - learning the ropes, working on aiming, cap control (or chasing away from cap), and identifying largest threats.

Most effort has been towards helping the team achieve the W.      While I could go for lone targets to rack up the damage, I'm just as happy with an 8k performance if I kept their DD and cruisers spotted, and forcing them broadside with my approaches.       

I may try working on damage.   I do well with the dive bombers on cruisers.   Rockets for the DDs, and torps (or whatever's loaded) for the BBs.

Still need to work on my sailing.   Even a carefully laid course can go south once the red planes spot you, and you happen to be in gun range of some of the BBs.    Or the DD that sneaks through, and your bote is on auto-pilot.

I've had to F-key out to get back to the deck so that I can manually steer.    It'd be nice for a CTRL WASD, or some other key option that'd allow you to drive your bote while planes are in the air.

Edited by DiddleDum

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