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eviltane

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING suggestions.

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Hey All.

It might be a great idea for those that like the new CVs to start thinking hard about improvements to the situation. How to do we make things fun? I will list my suggestions, maybe you have some ideas!

The goal of this balancing act is to reduce the amount of planes in the sky. But have planes be a valuable commodity that can impact more individually. As its no fun to be under CONSTANT threat and its no fun to have no effect as a good CV.

...................................................................................................

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

...................................................................................................................

What I am trying to do here is keep some of the fun flavor. But CVs are in a weird spot where at low tiers its boring and you have to work on the same guys for a long time to make a difference. While for the guy on the receiving end is in an inescapable 5-7 minute long harassment campaign.

Trying to reduce the number of planes in the sky but making the individual plane more meaningful is the way to go.

If a carrier wants to do early spotting, he has to take off with a few rocket planes. Maybe let the carrier choose the plane readying order.

For example : This makes the carrier spawn in all their planes over time. It makes sure that a Harukuyu can't just take off with a flying Shima over and over. Instead now He would have to wait 3-5 minutes before he gets a FULL flight of Bombers and he doesn't have another FULL flight on deck.

However since he can do a bit more damage ( flooding will still get nerfed) he will have a chance to have a good impact on the game , where it is needed on the map.

I might edit in some further thoughts and explanations later.

Edit: changed some wording around. Added the rdf point.

 

 

 Yes I am zwiebelhans on reddit

Edited by eviltane
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Just make long range flak burst, and medium and short consistent DPM. 

Make AFT and BFT do the same as before

Make "F" planes take longer to reach higher altitudes and they dont maneuver so AA will shoot more down on their way up. That way they don't get away scot free, but can preserve planes. 

REMOVE RNG AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. 

 

Get rid of the constant recharging planes. Make it so failure is an option if you throw too many away. Have a set hangar. 

Nerf Hak torp dmg, buff USN torp damage 

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let's nerf the CVs and destroy the entire concept of bringing more players to the rework,the thread.

what the rework need is balancing,not nerfs. a mix of buffs and nerfs. all i see here is nerf to CVs and buffs to everything else. that kills the concept of the rework.

make the flak hit randomly except hit straight away the planes.

give a timer to the F button

make the AA upgrade a gradual thing,not a big leap.

DDs need some form of protection.

Edited by Cruxdei
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That is a lot of nerfs for 1 buff.  The only carriers that need a nerf from my experience/opinion is tier 10.  Reducing the number of attack waves is another way to slow down the harassment.  If you only get 1 or 2 shots at an attack and have increased alpha like you suggest that is another way to go about it. 

The problem in my view is that WG has said (and tacitly said by giving COOP bots BBs in CV slot) that they think of CVs as BB like ships (xp wise).  Hilariously enough they no longer come off of the BB line but the DD line and with their spotting ability actually play a lot like DDs  that can't actually cap. 

One thing I would like to see too is Flak being more prevalent but less damaging to your whole squad.  Right now if you run into 1 flak burst basically your whole squad goes yellow even with HP/armor buffs.  I'm no expert on WWII combat, but it seems to me very unlikely that 1 flak burst could hit much less seriously damage an entire squadron.  I think it is more realistic and potentially better game balance to say 1 flak hit = 1 red plane or 1 auto kill depending on tier difference and hp buffs and then maybe 2 yellows.  Basically the flak is highly damaging but in a very small area and moderately damaging in a small area around that.  This allows more flak to be put up and 1 mistake doesn't make you want to spam the F key.

Edited by mrh308

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Remember the primary use of the f key is to regain control of the carrier.

 

By all means, adjust the climb out time of the planes post switch of player control to some form of balanced medium...

...but returning player control to the carrier to, for example, dodge torps or avoid ramming a friendly should not be delayed...ever.

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1 hour ago, eviltane said:

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

Pre-rework ranges - yes - as long as AA is rebalanced around the fact. 

Flood nerf is in the works 

Def AA - no comment as of yet

 

CV's -

Do you even understand what your on about? CV's, other than Kaga, start with 1 full strike+50%. With an ability to add an additional 2 ready. So if we have 12 planes per squadron, we have 18 on deck, 20 with the other thing. The only other way to have a load delay, like we used to have on RTS before we could launch, would mean having to increase the rate at which we regen aircraft.

45 second delay - yeah, no, absolutely not even RTS didn't have a delay that long.

Plane spotting - if they weren't tied to xp rewards - I'd say absolutely make it just position only is reported on ships, would have made RTS spotting less an issue. 

F key cooldown - first off it's not a consumable, second off, no.

Planes take damage when F key is used - if they take continuous damage only - this I would agree to, however if OHK flak can still hit them, absolutely not seeing as there is no evasion. 

No RDF on planes - I agree on this.

Increase alpha damage - ABSOLUTELY NOT. Nerf the damage a bit more actually, and give me more planes per attack flight. My Midway has 12 rocket armed planes launching, gimme that lower damage but attacking 6 at a time. Same with the DB's. Torps on Midway is a different story but give me on Hak 12 or 16 planes, attacking in groups of 4 with the old IJN spread and similar 4 plane strikes with DB's and the [edited] rockets they have. We need better accuracy with lower damage, not higher damage and these 2-3 plane attack groups are mind numbing and an issue. Better to do it in a way where typically you only have 2-3 runs tops usually, as opposed to 3-6 usually.

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Quote

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

45 seconds is too long, I'd say 15 to 20 seconds before planes can be launched.

The "F" key does need to be a consumable with a cool down equal to Def AA but no AA damage.

I do not agree with "blips on the minimap" suggestions.

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1 hour ago, eviltane said:

Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

THIS. Planes returning to CV by themselves have to take damage If they fly over enemy ships. Or the CV player drive them back, what would increase his turnaround time and consequently decrease the amount of planes on the Air ALL time.

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Just now, kgh52 said:

45 seconds is too long, I'd say 15 to 20 seconds before planes can be launched.

The "F" key does need to be a consumable with a cool down equal to Def AA but no AA damage.

I do not agree with "blips on the minimap" suggestions.

15-20 seconds is what I thought to.

The f-key is how you regain control of your carrier to sail it. Making it a consumable is a very terrible idea.

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This thread is like a list of all the things that WG won't do to balance CVs. You know when they come out with the adjustments for the patch, the first one will read...

"We've increased the rudder shift on the Hakuryu..."

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@RevolutionBlues Better yet! Remove player/posters who insist on removal of CVs from the game! That would be so much easier if they all just went away!

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I'd like to see more of a time penalty when the F key is used.  The planes turn around and head back to the carrier, without spotting, and taking damage until out of the AA which was already engaging them.  The player cannot launch another strike until they return (or maybe a half way back before they can strike again).  That way, AA has more of a chance to work.  In general, that F key could have more of a penalty so that the CV player has to decide between wasting time (pressing F)or planes (continuing to attack).

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13 minutes ago, CharlesBB55 said:

I'd like to see more of a time penalty when the F key is used.  The planes turn around and head back to the carrier, without spotting, and taking damage until out of the AA which was already engaging them.  The player cannot launch another strike until they return (or maybe a half way back before they can strike again).  That way, AA has more of a chance to work.  In general, that F key could have more of a penalty so that the CV player has to decide between wasting time (pressing F)or planes (continuing to attack).

AA is not for shooting planes down.

It is for deterring strikes by making strikes punishing. Current AA is so powerful at tiers lower than 8 that people recall their planes after one pass BECAUSE THE AA IS SO PUNISHING.

If you think good pilots are going to die to your AA just because it is powerful, you dont understand how pilots think. They will just avoid you...like all competent CV captains did with the old Wooster, Atlanta, Minotaur scenario.

All this noise about 'removing f-key abuse' seems to be coming from people who never bothered to actually think about AA and how it actually works.

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I’ve been playing a lot of Ryujo and that ship gets murdered when facing T8 matchmaking. Tier seven is a challenge, but any higher than that is a black hole that sucks all the fun out of the game. My suggestion is that WG implement +/- 1 MM for carriers. At the same tier, I feel that Ryujo is in pretty good shape. It just isn’t well balanced when moving too far away from it. I’d also like to add that when facing T8 (and sometimes T7 as well) the F Key is the only thing that’s kept me from being deplaned, which some people might think is deserved. Maybe so, if the AA mechanic wasn't so completely random and overly punishing against lower tiers. There are times when I feel as helpless playing a CV as I sometimes do playing against one, and that’s what we need to fix on both sides of the issue.

Edited by _Starbuck
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2 minutes ago, _Starbuck said:

I’ve been playing a lot of Ryujo and that ship gets murdered when facing T8 matchmaking. Tier seven is a challenge, but any higher than that is a black hole that sucks all the fun out of the game. My suggestion is that WG implement +/- 1 MM for carriers. At the same tier, I feel that Ryujo is in pretty good shape. It just isn’t well balanced when moving too far away from it. I’d also like to add that when facing T8 (and sometimes T7 as well) the F Key is the only thing that’s kept me from being deplaned, which some people might think is deserved. Maybe so, if the AA mechanic wasnt so completely random and overly punishing againt lower tiers. There are times when I feel as helpless playing a CV as I sometimes do playing against one, and that’s what we need to fix on both sides of the issue.

Exactly.

A lot of people think balancing tier 10 will balance all the other tiers.

Not so.

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2 hours ago, CAPTMUDDXX said:

@RevolutionBlues Better yet! Remove player/posters who insist on removal of CVs from the game! That would be so much easier if they all just went away!

I think you'd have a game population of about 100 players.

 

CV's have at no point in this game's history been anything even slightly resembling balanced. Clearly they either cannot be balanced because the concept does not fit with the rest of the gameplay, or Wargaming is simply incapable of balancing them. Either way the best course of action would be to remove them from the live servers at least until further balancing and testing makes them significantly less cancerous then they are now. 

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3 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

15-20 seconds is what I thought to.

The f-key is how you regain control of your carrier to sail it. Making it a consumable is a very terrible idea.

Yes, it is. Overlooked that.

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DFAA needs to be a permanent ability that has a cool down. If planes can get unlimited boost than ships with DFAA should have it also.

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8 hours ago, eviltane said:

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

I am in favor of almost all of these points, except for the bolded part. 

IMO, rockets are far too effective at nailing DDs, since they're very fast, can easily weave through AA, and can constantly hammer DDs while ignoring their AA.

Rockets should either (if we go by your suggestion) have high damage but lower accuracy/ increase their bombing area (because it makes no sense that "unguided rockets" are this accurate), or halve their current damage while retaining the accuracy.

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16 hours ago, Legio_X_ said:

DFAA needs to be a permanent ability that has a cool down. If planes can get unlimited boost than ships with DFAA should have it also.

I wish DFAA had more of an impact.   Mind I only played 15 or so games as a T8 CV but I couldn't tell you the difference between experiencing DFAA or not.  It could be that it was never used against me i guess.

Edited by eviltane

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22 hours ago, eviltane said:

.................................................................................................

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

..............................................................................................................

All ships

1. I agree

2. I agree

3. Questionable.

CVs

1. Improvement: All CV players to pick which squadren would be preped first

2. 45 sec is to long. 10-20 sec should do

3. TB/DB when spot ships make only CA/CL, BB, CV visable as normal and DDs as blimps.

4. Attack aircraft spots all ship types.

5. Absolutely no to F key consumable. As many people stated it main purpose is to swiftly change control from planes to CV.

6. No. If you are implementing trying to implement old AA mechanics.

7. 50% is to high. 5% to 10 % should suffice.

Edited by Poisonous_Lily

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23 hours ago, eviltane said:

...................................................................................................

ST Eviltane CV 0.8.1 BALANCING

All ships:

  • AA Ranges back to pre-rework levels ( longer AA ranges)

  • Flooding nerf. (compensate torp boats!)

  • Def AA consumable gets a larger impact on aim.

CVs:

  • Do not start with a full deck of planes.

  • Introduce 45 second delay at the start of the match before Aircraft carrier planes start spawning.

  • Bomber spotted ships only get reported as blips on the minimap.

  • Fighter spotted ships only get marked as blips on the minimap.

  • Attack planes spot Cruisers and BBs as normal but DDs only as blips.

  • 120 and 90(premium) second cooldown on F spam. IF you want to land earlier and save the precious planes then the player needs to fly back and be within 5km of carrier to land for free.

  • Retreating F keyed planes take damage from anti air.

  • No RDF on Planes.

  • Increase alpha damage of rockets , bombs , torps 50%.

...................................................................................................................

So I posted in another thread about the CV rework, and was pretty happy to see a thread like this -- even if things from this thread aren't implemented, I'm glad to see the community doing more than "Yay best patch ever" or "This is garbage"

The 'F' key should not have a cooldown or treated like a consumable in my opinion.  However, I think retreating planes should take 25% (this can vary I'm just tossing the idea out) -- increased damage from AA since the AI wouldn't manuever as well as a player.  This would create a kind of skill ceiling for CV players to reach.  Where better players who can micro manage more efficiently are rewarded by their planes taking less damage because they'll keep them in their own hands longer than others who will just F key out.

I would like to see 'light cruisers' and destroyers get increased AA range, perhaps more damage as well at Tier 10 - since Tier 10's can't be the benchmark standard for everyone (not everyone is tier 10).

The DFAA consumable seems to be worthless because of F key spam - Perhaps this could be given a longer duration / shorter cooldown to compensate along with my previous suggestion?

I agree that RDF shouldn't be on the planes though.

I 100% agree destroyers spotted by planes should only be blips - and I'm saying that as a Cruiser player that hates...hates destroyers...

I do not agree at all CV planes should get a damage increase - it's been nuts watching the Tier 10 CV's blow everything to h*** and back.  My matches all day have been watching to see who the CV's choose to kill last - it hasn't been fun at all.  Though perhaps some of the above changes would make their damage acceptable?  I don't know... but it's no fun watching my DFAA be worthless simply because they press the F key

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