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NeoGabriel

Remove Carriers from Surface Warfare

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There is no way to balance the game as long as the Sky cancer is in. Before the changes, carriers were extremely rare - almost as if they didn't exist -  so it was fine. With the 3 types of ships, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships, it is possible to have a rock-paper-scissors balance for the game, because they are all ships, they fight using the same tools (guns and torpedoes), and generally if they can shoot they can be shot back at. It is not possible to do this when you add Carriers to this game. As such, they do not have a place in a surface warfare game.

There are dozens of reasons why they must be removed for the sake of this game, but I will list a few again for OP's sake:

 

It is the only class against which there is no counter - AA builds do almost nothing against two carriers focusing you from across the map, and you die due to: flooding, fires, being spotted early and consistently.

You can't shoot back at the carriers, and you can't do enough damage to planes to hurt the carrier (infinite stock) or to prevent getting rekt before they are shot down, specially against T10 CVs.

The difference in CV driver skill still causes extreme imbalance in matches.

The strategies to play without carriers is completely different than for playing against carriers.

Reduction in AA range reduces the dps window too much.

The sector system is nonsense and a distraction - give me back the Ctrl+click to select what to focus.

Maneuvering to evade in general only really works for DDs and even then not well, as the activation lead in distances are too close. Generally it would be better if the planes had to set direction of attack while still outside AA range.

You can angle or position yourself to counter guns, but you cant position against carriers - unless you bunch up as a fleet. But we do not spawn as a fleet - sucks if you spawn in the corner alone - You are going to die.

[Edit] CVs in a match essentially make concealment pointless as they can reveal the entire map.

All the above factors remove player agency -  it's as if you are there just to be a target - this is not fun.

 

If you want to play carriers a better solution would be to play a flight simulator or Harpoon.

I am tired of this nonsense and am considering quitting the game because of this crap. This used to be  a tactical game but on top of all the other issues (HE/Fire spam, Radar spam, chat policing) it is becoming increasingly hard to justify playing this game the way it is going. A few matches after the patch and I feel I must take a break from this already. I guess I'll be playing ranked only for now.

[Edit] Someone better than me explains it better, and proves his point:

 

mek9f8mflce21.jpg

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/374482848?t=00h36m24s

Edited by NeoGabriel
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You lost everyone when you started ranting about radar, HE, and chat bans.  Grow up.

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3 minutes ago, NeoGabriel said:

Before the changes, carriers were extremely rare - almost as if they didn't exist -  so it was fine.

Wow, then I guess that Wargaming should do something to make them more appealing to play as and play against so that a quarter of their game isn't being ignored. Oh wait, they did. :Smile_trollface:

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There was a very really envisioned reason for CV's in Warships. And no it isn't as clean cut as rock paper scissors that DD mains love to argue with. (While they completely ignore CV's in that equation). Every class had essentially 2-3 roles.

 

Cruisers= Saturating BB's AA's, etc. while helping to assist other BB's in taking them out with fire, while being direct counters to CV's with the highest AA threat in the game. They were also defenders of BB's against DD's.

Battleships = Anti Cruisers/Anti CV's. With their long range, able to strike spotted CV's from even half the map away in many situations, and being able to damn near 1 shot cruisers if not outright 1 shot, while brawling each other.

Destroyers = Support of Cruisers/Battleships with smoke while generating a natural area of denial with their potent and powerful torpedoes. Capping relatively safely with proper support from cruisers/battleships, and able too in mid/late game seek out Carriers and stranded enemy ships.

Carriers = Spotters, supports as well. While they can technically strike any ship their real role was to run spots for enemy DD"s trying to sneak around the sides, while helping to focus or even route out enemy ships in strong positions.

 

(Granted how good any specific nation was in their role differed, and each nation was different in the strengths they brought to their intended roles. Examples: USN before Germans were the brawlers, very good medium range guns, and very decent AA for the focus they'd get from CVs and other ships, meanwhile IJN Battleships were actuallyt he more "anti CV" ships, as their extremely long range potential was better for striking spotted CV's from half the map away well out of any other battleship at the time. THeir extreme dispersion didn't matter at that range either since Carriers have such a massive flat deck you were going to hit something.)
---------------

Because carriers were never living up to their intended roles and their numbers were so lack luster many bad things happend over the course of 4 years which forced changes to the game that were unhealthy. 

Destroyers with their only real nemesis at the time, carriers, being non existant in most games, were able to go lone wolf, striking enemy ships form virtually any position or angle, with very little counter play to them. This then forced them to push cruisers into the Anti DD role specifically giving them radar to combat them, and even increasing their ROF and accuracy. This then became too much, and so they removed the citadel from DD's.. Top tier gameplay was still nothing but 5 DD's per team torp spamming everything, so they introduced yet more radar, including radar on DD's to help combat the extreme power spike DD's got with the exclusion of CV's, and how badly smoke was being utterly abused by not just them, but other ships.

Even games with CV's, CV's were not playing their intended role. Due to the huge power output CV's had, they were not willing to sit and spot DD's, and support. Instead they found that stacking all their squadrons up on a single target and ultimately nuking every target 1 by 1 with impunity was the best route.

The entire balance of World of Warships has been off since release. Whether DD players like it or not, your ship was never intended to be a power house stealth assassin, or cap pusher with virtually no real counter.. Hence why Radar was even introduced to begin with, or why you guys saw non stop DD nerfs for years.

Now if the CV change proves well taken and players begin to play CV's more, you'll see much of your ability given back. No you wont get to be the unstoppable power force in the game as you have had for years, and you will have to start playing differently and different stages of the battle like any other ship, but you'll see them start tweaking radar or even changing it, RPF may also see a change to it.

For battleships, they may even see a change in HE damage output by Cruisers if Destroyers start manning up and supporting the team and using their guns rather than just relying on torp stealth spams and playing for themselves.

 

As for destroyers crying about not being able to cap anymore.. ridiculous.. You still have a very real and very potent position on the team. No you most likely wont be capping in the first 2 minutes of the game like before. Caps were something you were supposed to FIGHT over.. not stealth ninja in smoke in the first 2 minutes THEN fight over it...

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3 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

There was a very really envisioned reason for CV's in Warships. And no it isn't as clean cut as rock paper scissors that DD mains love to argue with. (While they completely ignore CV's in that equation). Every class had essentially 2-3 roles.

 

The entire balance of World of Warships has been off since release. Whether DD players like it or not, your ship was never intended to be a power house stealth assassin, or cap pusher with virtually no real counter.. Hence why Radar was even introduced to begin with, or why you guys saw non stop DD nerfs for years.
 

Yes, the balance is total bonkers right now, but I find it funny that you assume I am a DD main. I did very well with DDs in the ranked without radar and CV, but mostly I just play BBs and Cruisers at high tiers - by highest DD is a t7, and i already found it too difficult to play against radar, which is why don't play DDs at high tiers. I can only imagine how bad it is now for a DD against CVs.

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4 minutes ago, NeoGabriel said:

Yes, the balance is total bonkers right now, but I find it funny that you assume I am a DD main. I did very well with DDs in the ranked without radar and CV, but mostly I just play BBs and Cruisers at high tiers - by highest DD is a t7, and i already found it too difficult to play against radar, which is why don't play DDs at high tiers. I can only imagine how bad it is now for a DD against CVs.

Well then yyou really need to sit down and stop typing on this topic then for more reasons than I can count on my hands.

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You should play CVs and see how easy  it is to attack a smart group of people using an AA bubble of Des Moines, Worchester or a Minotaur. This is a tactical game, with know variables( some that even make sense). CVs are the Apex of Naval Warfare. And you are more likely to survive a match post 8.0 then you were when back in 7.8 were a Midway could park torps on your porch or a Hak could gangbang you from 3 sides at once. Just like DDs have had to adjust to constant changes, now even CV players need to adjust. Play CVs or better yet T10 CVs, and maybe you will have a new perspective. And for the record, I am a DD main.

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3 minutes ago, LupusMalum said:

You should play CVs and see how easy  it is to attack a smart group of people using an AA bubble of Des Moines, Worchester or a Minotaur. This is a tactical game, with know variables( some that even make sense). CVs are the Apex of Naval Warfare. And you are more likely to survive a match post 8.0 then you were when back in 7.8 were a Midway could park torps on your porch or a Hak could gangbang you from 3 sides at once. Just like DDs have had to adjust to constant changes, now even CV players need to adjust. Play CVs or better yet T10 CVs, and maybe you will have a new perspective. And for the record, I am a DD main.

This is a game, arcade even. If you want to be a smart guy, you get start the battle with your entire wing, but no ship - its actually located 200km away. Once your planes die your out.

 

My point is that the game is better off without CVs at all.

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1 minute ago, NeoGabriel said:

This is a game, arcade even. If you want to be a smart guy, you get start the battle with your entire wing, but no ship - its actually located 200km away. Once your planes die your out.

 

My point is that the game is better off without CVs at all.

If you want to play a game where you don't have to uses your "smarts". How about COD or any of the other dumbed games that were made to appeal to the casual gamer. WG has consistently dumbed the game down for people who refuse to put the effort in to get skilled. There are a million games out there for you Solitaire, Battleship, tiddlywinks or Splatoon on the Switch. But for the love of God stop trying to bring the game down to your skill level.

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8 minutes ago, LupusMalum said:

If you want to play a game where you don't have to uses your "smarts". How about COD or any of the other dumbed games that were made to appeal to the casual gamer. WG has consistently dumbed the game down for people who refuse to put the effort in to get skilled. There are a million games out there for you Solitaire, Battleship, tiddlywinks or Splatoon on the Switch. But for the love of God stop trying to bring the game down to your skill level.

CVs have lowered the skill level.  Everyone should just blob now.  Even without CVs that's kinda where things were going.  Previously, if I was on the right and the rest of my team went left.  I'd push out to the island on the right and try to hold it as long as I could.  

Now, I'd just lemming with the rest of the team.  Getting isolated on a flank with the potential of being permaspotted is not worth it.  Even though, tactically, covering that flank is very, very important and maybe even worth losing my ship over.  No thanks though.

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NeoGabriel is right.  Trying to balance CV's in a surface warfare game is an exercise in futility.  WG had plenty of testers tell them that early on.  They didn't listen then and they won't do so now. 

A number of things are occurring to me all at once.  It has occurred to me to ask myself just why the  "year of premium" was so inexpensive.  How much are they making on those loot boxes that don't cost them a thing?  How about those "premium offers" on camo, ships and signals?  WG has been building mountain of cash for themselves in order to offset the losses that they knew they were going to suffer as a result of this update and those coming in the future.  They knew that the PC gamers were going to go ballistic long before this update was released.  Now, you can count on it, they are going to counsel "patience"  while they "balance" this mess.  You, friends, are being used as test subjects in EG's effort to modify WoW for consoles, and are now their unpaid testing staff.  WG made a decision long ago that PC gamers were somewhat expendable because children with consoles usually spend an average of twice what PC gamers do on their online games.  This isn't about "fixes", which is what WG will tell you.  You don't break your game just to fix it later.  It is about making the game "friendly" for the kiddies in the console market.  This is why WG is never going to withdraw this update and also why they are never going to listen to you beyond that which suits them in terms of modifying the game for the console market.

Edited by JunkwaffelXXI
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3 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

CVs have lowered the skill level.  Everyone should just blob now.  Even without CVs that's kinda where things were going.  Previously, if I was on the right and the rest of my team went left.  I'd push out to the island on the right and try to hold it as long as I could.  

Now, I'd just lemming with the rest of the team.  Getting isolated on a flank with the potential of being permaspotted is not worth it.  Even though, tactically, covering that flank is very, very important and maybe even worth losing my ship over.  No thanks though.

No, this rework has made it easier for you to survive, in 7.8 I could permaspot a DD, while also being a threat to the rest of the fleet with my attack planes. Now it is Spot or damage, you can't do both now. And no I am not biased I have played more games in DDs than other ship types. I have T10dds in all branch but one, and that is a T9. Believe me, you have a better chance of survival now. Please stop making me defend CVs, please.

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54 minutes ago, Lady_Athena said:

Capping relatively safely with proper support from cruisers/battleships

So you have supported the DD right up to the cap and I mean with in 3 km in a BB, since when does this ever happen, sure a CA will tell you it is supporting you only to see it nestle in behind a rock that cannot even shoot into the cap, or the BB sitting 15 km away from the cap, the proof and experience you are providing is like taking a driving lesson from a blind man, oh he can do it, just not very well

Edited by CriMiNaL__
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5 minutes ago, JunkwaffelXXI said:

NeoGabriel is right.  Trying to balance CV's in a surface warfare game is an exercise in futility.  WG had plenty of testers tell them that early on.  They didn't listen then and they won't do so now.  It has occurred to me to ask myself just why the  "year of premium" was so inexpensive.  How much are they making on those loot boxes that don't cost them a thing?  How about those "premium offers" on camo, ships and signals?  WG has been building mountain of cash for themselves in order to offset the losses that they knew they were going to suffer as a result of this update and those coming in the future.  They knew that the PC gamers were going to go ballistic long before this update was released.  Now, you can count on it, they are going to counsel "patience"  while they "balance" this mess.  You, friends, are being used as test subjects in EG's effort to modify WoW for consoles.  WG made a decision long ago that PC gamers were expendable because children with consoles usually spend an average of twice what PC gamers do on their online games.  This isn't about "fixes", which is what WG will tell you.  You don't break your game just to fix it later.  It is about trading you for the console market.  this is why WG is never going to withdraw this update and also why they are never going to listen to you beyond that which suits them in terms of modifying the game for a market that does not include you.

I agree with your opinion that the game is being dumbed down for the console player. I have even received a forum ban twice for my past post, about the dumbing down of the game.

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23 minutes ago, LupusMalum said:

If you want to play a game where you don't have to uses your "smarts". How about COD or any of the other dumbed games that were made to appeal to the casual gamer. WG has consistently dumbed the game down for people who refuse to put the effort in to get skilled. There are a million games out there for you Solitaire, Battleship, tiddlywinks or Splatoon on the Switch. But for the love of God stop trying to bring the game down to your skill level.

Ad Hominem already? You think I dont' know how to play this game well?

 

I Play well enough to have a much higher than average win rate and stats (all solo). I carry my fair share when I can. Look at this one I just did:

aWjqjKp.jpg

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1 minute ago, LupusMalum said:

I agree with your opinion that the game is being dumbed down for the console player. I have even received a forum ban twice for my past post, about the dumbing down of the game.

I cannot say that I am surprised.

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Just now, LupusMalum said:

No, this rework has made it easier for you to survive, in 7.8 I could permaspot a DD, while also being a threat to the rest of the fleet with my attack planes. Now it is Spot or damage, you can't do both now. And no I am not biased I have played more games in DDs than other ship types. I have T10dds in all branch but one, and that is a T9. Believe me, you have a better chance of survival now. Please stop making me defend CVs, please.

The new CVs are not OP except for vision.  They did fix that. 

But it was "fixed" before in that hardly anyone played CVs so you just put up with the pain when you got matched with one and 90% of your other matches didn't involve them.  

The vision thing was potentially much worse in the old system.  But again, just because it's not as bad as it was before, per game, since they want 75% of matches to have CVs, it means that rather than having one or two completely broken matches per session.  Now,  most games will just be kind of broken.

Just my opinion as someone who only plays cruisers.

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1 minute ago, NeoGabriel said:

Ad Hominem already? You think I dont' know how to play this game well?

 

I Play well enough to have a much higher than average win rate and stats (all solo). I carry my fair share when I can. Look at this one I just did:

aWjqjKp.jpg

Congrats on the good game, Missouri is a Suger daddy with the credits and the right flags. My point is that you can still be successful. And to show you that you can get over a million credits in a DD, let me share this with you.

image.thumb.png.adca8b4ecaeba4e336a515d2e365e35f.png

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Remove them from surface warfare? So where do you want them? As submarines? Orbital strike platforms?

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1 hour ago, Lady_Athena said:

As for destroyers crying about not being able to cap anymore.. ridiculous.. You still have a very real and very potent position on the team. No you most likely wont be capping in the first 2 minutes of the game like before. Caps were something you were supposed to FIGHT over.. not stealth ninja in smoke in the first 2 minutes THEN fight over it...

Please everyone read and remember this. That and the great bulk of what was in this reply.

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Just now, Chobittsu said:

Remove them from surface warfare? So where do you want them? As submarines? Orbital strike platforms?

CVs made the other surface ships somewhat obsolete except as escorts for the CV.  We saw that in the original "historically accurate" configuration of CVs in game.  They could dumb them down to fit into the rock paper scissors of the surface ship game but what's the point in that?  Why not just leave them out?

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19 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

They could dumb them down to fit into the rock paper scissors of the surface ship game but what's the point in that?

You finally said it, and when you did, you answered your own question.

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1 minute ago, JunkwaffelXXI said:

You finally said it, and when you did, you answered your own question.

Please to explain. :P

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2 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Please to explain. :P

Take a look at my post above.  The longer one.  It is about tossing us under the bus for the console market.  WG has been working on it for ages.

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they won't listen, but at some point it may suit them to make us feel like they are.

Edited by JunkwaffelXXI

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