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Opfor_Commander

The DD and CV Rework Salt War

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A little about myself: Primarily a BB and CA captain. Dabbled with DD's and CV's. 

From reading throughout the Forums and experiencing it myself in game. I honestly think "In my own opinion" the DD's are justified in the amount of Rage/Salt their throwing. 

I've been testing out the new CV Rework with my Kaga and I've came to a few conclusions and offer my ideas on a fix

 

1) I spent some time harassing DD's with my rockets. I think its true that they don't have a counter for this as it is pretty much Perma-spotting them and all the concentrated fire that comes with that. It almost seems like the first priority targets of a CV after the Rework are DD's. And for good reason. Their usually the first into the CAPs and pose the biggest threat to Allied players. Both are good reasons for sinking them first. But with the current gameplay mechanics, its a hard road for a DD.

    *Idea: Remove all AA from DD's and make them Un-Spotable by Player controlled Planes. If a DD is spotted by a surface ship/Radar. Its open season on them via Planes. Also, for CVs to have counter-play for them. Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect just like the Fighter Plane. 

 

2) The whole Launch/AttackRun/Press F to save the majority of the Squadron | Rise Repeat is a little OP. It seems once you press F. The Planes become ignored by all AA etc and return to stack back up in the Loadout. 
     If this is how its been designed. I think its a cheap No-Counter Tactic. If you as a CV Driver push deep enough into Red territory to get some quick 1 Run snipe and then "F-it" to spin up another sortie. The returning planes Should be susceptible to all the AA they would encounter on the return trip.

 

3) AA of Surface Ships in General is still not right. Some are still way too strong. For Example, I could spend a entire match targeting one ship with Hulk-like AA and not get a single hit or get close enough to attempt. This is not fun and offers no counter-play for the CV. And Some ships seem like the AA crews are fresh from Basic. Each example gives one or the other no counter-play. 

     *Idea: I honestly think WG'ing needs to put this to rest and silence all the AA Hate. Make AA a Controllable Mount. If WG'ing gave you control of your AA and you can't hit the planes. Its not WG'ing fault your cross-eyed. Adding into this Modules/Commander skills that can improve the AA etc etc and then you'll have Players that have to choose their upgrades Carefully. But for the few that would scream its too hard jumping between Primary Guns and AA ie Multi-tasking like every human being should know how to do. Make a Commander Skill that is AI Controlled AA just like it is now, but weaken it. A Boat with Hulk-like AA using this Skill should be weakened. You don't get rockstar AA if you choose to ignore it and only concentrate with your Primary Guns.

 

Other than those few things, I think the Rework is a great step in the right direction.The Rework has pushed to require players to stay together and move as a Task Force and support each other. I like this as it gives the sense of inclusion to all participating and increases the action when the two sides meet. I was getting tired of the every man for himself/Rambo routine. 

 

Also the matches do seem a little more even when CV's are present. From a CV vs. CV perspective which I think WG'ing was trying to balance at the core of all this.

 

 

 

Edited by Opfor_Commander
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I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

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I see some good ideas in there.  I have not played  a lot since the rework, mainly focusing on ranked so I am not the expert to argue a case against this, but I like some of it.

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1 minute ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

From what I see the CV rework is moving these battles away from COWBOY YOLO style and forcing more team coordination and thought.  You can be out front spotting like before but you cannot be 12 KM out front and not pay a steep price for it.  Cruiser support and being near that AA umbrella is a lot more important now.  Charging around a flank alone in your 40+ knot gunboat could well be suicide if you are discovered.

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26 minutes ago, Opfor_Commander said:

*Idea: Remove all AA from DD's and make them Un-Spotable by Player controlled Planes. If a DD is spotted by a surface ship/Radar. Its open season on them via Planes. Also, for CVs to have counter-play for them. Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect just like the Fighter Plane. 

This is some good, old fashioned, thinking outside the box. I don't like it, but it's still a good idea.

Edited by legozer

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As mentioned there is PTS for the CV rework, not my problem if DD Mains can’t be bothered to go test the PTS. 

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7 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

Not only that, but CV numbers aren't as excessive as they were earlier.

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1 minute ago, Skpstr said:

Not only that, but CV numbers aren't as excessive as they were earlier.

Yeah, I noticed that last night as well.

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Honestly, the DDs really only seem to be struggling at T4 and T10 against the CVs.  At T4 the DDs just don't have the health to survive the attacks from the CV rockets.  At T10 the damage from rockets is ramped up quite a bit due to more rockets being fired on top of DDs being larger than those at lower tiers.  At T6 and T8 they seem to be fairly decent against each other, with the rockets not being as concentrate while DDs are still small and have enough health to survive some hits.

 

The F-key recall isn't a magic "get-out-of-jail-free" card that people think it is.  The planes are still vulnerable to AA and fighters for about 5 seconds after the key is pressed, so it's very easy to lose entire squadrons if AA is still concentrated enough.  Because CVs also have a limited number of planes available on the flight deck, they tend to not have enough ready to launch that same squadron type without waiting for them to return.  If a CV is hitting F after just a single attack, then that's just more time where you and your teammates are not being spotted or attacked by the CVs planes.

 

I do agree that AA balance needs to be looked at.  T6 CVs are near-useless in matches with a lot of T8 ships, while T8 CVs also see the same issues against T10 ships.  On the opposite side, T8 CVs dominate against T6 ships while the same is true for T10 CVs against T8 ships.  As it is right now, the AA damage jump between tiers causes bottom planes to be taken out in a single flak burst from higher tiered ships, while top tier planes can all but ignore lower tiered AA.

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15 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

This!!

100000000 times, this!!

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10 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

Yeah, I noticed that last night as well.

I was playing some DD games, (only T7 mind you) and if you picked a different cap initially than the enemy CV, it was business as usual.

I did have to keep an eye on the planes though, a few times I had to deviate from my intended course a km or so, just to avoid being spotted incidentally. I did that before the rework anyway, but with the F key and faster planes, planes being on the other side of the map aren't an invitation to totally let your guard down.

Edited by Skpstr

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18 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

When I am in a DD I never complain about radar....it's easy to determine a path to being effective and not getting radared, so I've never complained about that from a DD perspective.

CVs on the other hand are another story.  DDs have no counter to them.....you cannot avoid them if they want to keep you spotted and/or sink you, and that has been made worse with update 8.0.   And as Pulicat pointed out, keeping a DD by friendly ships when he wants to sink you really doesn't help.  Something has to be done to balance this specific issue imo.  Radar is just fine.

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5 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

This!!

100000000 times, this!!

*quietly, from back of the auditorium*

I was saying boo-urns

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36 minutes ago, Opfor_Commander said:

1) I spent some time harassing DD's with my rockets. I think its true that they don't have a counter for this as it is pretty much Perma-spotting them and all the concentrated fire that comes with that. It almost seems like the first priority targets of a CV after the Rework are DD's. And for good reason. Their usually the first into the CAPs and pose the biggest threat to Allied players. Both are good reasons for sinking them first. But with the current gameplay mechanics, its a hard road for a DD.

    *Idea: Remove all AA from DD's and make them Un-Spotable by Player controlled Planes. If a DD is spotted by a surface ship/Radar. Its open season on them via Planes. Also, for CVs to have counter-play for them. Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect just like the Fighter Plane. 

Absolutely not. I play AA fleet escort DDs, and I would quit WoWs for this change.

Edited by WuYixiang

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2 minutes ago, legozer said:

*quietly, from back of the auditorium*

I was saying boo-urns

I don't even know what that has to do with anything, but it made me laugh for some reason.

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31 minutes ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

You know, when they proposed the bow nerf to BBs there was just as much yelling, and it was justified. Radar isn't something with no issue with it. 

No one else has had their class gutted like this. What do DDs do anymore that can't be done better by another class? Spotting? CVs. Hunting DDs? CVs. You put RDF on a plane at at 260 kmh you can find anyone.

Area denial? CVs.

Contest caps? CVs

DPS? Cruisers

Capping?

That's all you can do, and you have to wait until the end game to try. Better off in a Mino with AA to spend the first 3/4s of the game doing something. 

If you look at the effects of 8.0, aren't you better off with a different ship on your team than a DD now?

This isn't just adapt and git gud as in the past

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56 minutes ago, Opfor_Commander said:

A little about myself: Primarily a BB and CA captain. Dabbled with DD's and CV's. 

From reading throughout the Forums and experiencing it myself in game. I honestly think "In my own opinion" the DD's are justified in the amount of Rage/Salt their throwing. 

I've been testing out the new CV Rework with my Kaga and I've came to a few conclusions and offer my ideas on a fix

 

1) I spent some time harassing DD's with my rockets. I think its true that they don't have a counter for this as it is pretty much Perma-spotting them and all the concentrated fire that comes with that. It almost seems like the first priority targets of a CV after the Rework are DD's. And for good reason. Their usually the first into the CAPs and pose the biggest threat to Allied players. Both are good reasons for sinking them first. But with the current gameplay mechanics, its a hard road for a DD.

    *Idea: Remove all AA from DD's and make them Un-Spotable by Player controlled Planes. If a DD is spotted by a surface ship/Radar. Its open season on them via Planes. Also, for CVs to have counter-play for them. Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect just like the Fighter Plane. 

 

2) The whole Launch/AttackRun/Press F to save the majority of the Squadron | Rise Repeat is a little OP. It seems once you press F. The Planes become ignored by all AA etc and return to stack back up in the Loadout. 
     If this is how its been designed. I think its a cheap No-Counter Tactic. If you as a CV Driver push deep enough into Red territory to get some quick 1 Run snipe and then "F-it" to spin up another sortie. The returning planes Should be susceptible to all the AA they would encounter on the return trip.

 

3) AA of Surface Ships in General is still not right. Some are still way too strong. For Example, I could spend a entire match targeting one ship with Hulk-like AA and not get a single hit or get close enough to attempt. This is not fun and offers no counter-play for the CV. And Some ships seem like the AA crews are fresh from Basic. Each example gives one or the other no counter-play. 

     *Idea: I honestly think WG'ing needs to put this to rest and silence all the AA Hate. Make AA a Controllable Mount. If WG'ing gave you control of your AA and you can't hit the planes. Its not WG'ing fault your cross-eyed. Adding into this Modules/Commander skills that can improve the AA etc etc and then you'll have Players that have to choose their upgrades Carefully. But for the few that would scream its too hard jumping between Primary Guns and AA ie Multi-tasking like every human being should know how to do. Make a Commander Skill that is AI Controlled AA just like it is now, but weaken it. A Boat with Hulk-like AA using this Skill should be weakened. You don't get rockstar AA if you choose to ignore it and only concentrate with your Primary Guns.

 

Other than those few things, I think the Rework is a great step in the right direction.The Rework has pushed to require players to stay together and move as a Task Force and support each other. I like this as it gives the sense of inclusion to all participating and increases the action when the two sides meet. I was getting tired of the every man for himself/Rambo routine. 

 

Also the matches do seem a little more even when CV's are present. From a CV vs. CV perspective which I think WG'ing was trying to balance at the core of all this.

 

 

 

I hope that WG do not follow your recommendations...fine tuning here and there is what we need, not bold moves, we had enough of those already...

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36 minutes ago, D_I_P_Scout said:

From what I see the CV rework is moving these battles away from COWBOY YOLO style and forcing more team coordination and thought.  You can be out front spotting like before but you cannot be 12 KM out front and not pay a steep price for it.  Cruiser support and being near that AA umbrella is a lot more important now.  Charging around a flank alone in your 40+ knot gunboat could well be suicide if you are discovered.

I disagree.  

I hate to sound like an elitist...but the gameplay we are witnessing is not coordination and thought.  It's braindead passivity caused by fear and excessive spotting.  Both teams are spotted in spawn, they're too scared to push, they hang back, naturally clumping up as no-one knows that to do.  When the game is played at a high level, signs of good team-play are actually teams spreading out to create crossfires and gain map control.  

 

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22 minutes ago, yashma said:

It's braindead passivity caused by fear and excessive spotting.  Both teams are spotted in spawn, they're too scared to push, they hang back, naturally clumping up as no-one knows that to do.

 

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1 hour ago, Madwolf05 said:

I really want to feel sorry for DDs, because they definitely have some real issues with the CV rework, but they whine so much it's hard to bring myself to do so.

At some point in time you have to stop beating your head against the wall and try something different if you wish to learn and improve.

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Now they continue to sail all alone and make themselves the best, and easiest targets for CVs to attack first.

While issues with the CV rework need to be fixed and balanced, as a whole DDs need some tough love until they start learning to adapt like everyone else.

First of all people complain just as much about DD players complaining. Second many DD don't have the range to do anything if they stick with their fleet, they have to push up to contribute other wise they might as well just AFK.

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1 hour ago, Opfor_Commander said:

A little about myself: Primarily a BB and CA captain. Dabbled with DD's and CV's. 

From reading throughout the Forums and experiencing it myself in game. I honestly think "In my own opinion" the DD's are justified in the amount of Rage/Salt their throwing. 

I've been testing out the new CV Rework with my Kaga and I've came to a few conclusions and offer my ideas on a fix

 

1) I spent some time harassing DD's with my rockets. I think its true that they don't have a counter for this as it is pretty much Perma-spotting them and all the concentrated fire that comes with that. It almost seems like the first priority targets of a CV after the Rework are DD's. And for good reason. Their usually the first into the CAPs and pose the biggest threat to Allied players. Both are good reasons for sinking them first. But with the current gameplay mechanics, its a hard road for a DD.

    *Idea: Remove all AA from DD's and make them Un-Spotable by Player controlled Planes. If a DD is spotted by a surface ship/Radar. Its open season on them via Planes. Also, for CVs to have counter-play for them. Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect just like the Fighter Plane. 

 

2) The whole Launch/AttackRun/Press F to save the majority of the Squadron | Rise Repeat is a little OP. It seems once you press F. The Planes become ignored by all AA etc and return to stack back up in the Loadout. 
     If this is how its been designed. I think its a cheap No-Counter Tactic. If you as a CV Driver push deep enough into Red territory to get some quick 1 Run snipe and then "F-it" to spin up another sortie. The returning planes Should be susceptible to all the AA they would encounter on the return trip.

 

3) AA of Surface Ships in General is still not right. Some are still way too strong. For Example, I could spend a entire match targeting one ship with Hulk-like AA and not get a single hit or get close enough to attempt. This is not fun and offers no counter-play for the CV. And Some ships seem like the AA crews are fresh from Basic. Each example gives one or the other no counter-play. 

     *Idea: I honestly think WG'ing needs to put this to rest and silence all the AA Hate. Make AA a Controllable Mount. If WG'ing gave you control of your AA and you can't hit the planes. Its not WG'ing fault your cross-eyed. Adding into this Modules/Commander skills that can improve the AA etc etc and then you'll have Players that have to choose their upgrades Carefully. But for the few that would scream its too hard jumping between Primary Guns and AA ie Multi-tasking like every human being should know how to do. Make a Commander Skill that is AI Controlled AA just like it is now, but weaken it. A Boat with Hulk-like AA using this Skill should be weakened. You don't get rockstar AA if you choose to ignore it and only concentrate with your Primary Guns.

 

Other than those few things, I think the Rework is a great step in the right direction.The Rework has pushed to require players to stay together and move as a Task Force and support each other. I like this as it gives the sense of inclusion to all participating and increases the action when the two sides meet. I was getting tired of the every man for himself/Rambo routine. 

 

Also the matches do seem a little more even when CV's are present. From a CV vs. CV perspective which I think WG'ing was trying to balance at the core of all this.

 

 

 

The issue with returning planes is that they are not player controlled. 

Which means that they'll enter every AA bubble in their path. How would you feel if as a CV you attacked with all possible attack runs skirting AA and expertly dodging flak only to have your planes mindlessly get ripped to shreds flying in straight lines back to the CV.

Also if airborne planes can't spot DDs than there is no counter available to CVs for DDs. 

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2 minutes ago, StoneRhino said:

The issue with returning planes is that they are not player controlled. 

Which means that they'll enter every AA bubble in their path. How would you feel if as a CV you attacked with all possible attack runs skirting AA and expertly dodging flak only to have your planes mindlessly get ripped to shreds flying in straight lines back to the CV.

Also if airborne planes can't spot DDs than there is no counter available to CVs for DDs. 

You would give up the right to be angry over losing planes on the return trip when you chose to give up control of them behind enemy lines. If you didn't want to loose more, you would pilot them back across the battle lines before pressing F.

And as for Counter-play for a CV vs. DD: Like I said,  Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect for spotting just like how we use the Fighter Plane Consumable for Aircraft protection.

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25 minutes ago, Opfor_Commander said:

You would give up the right to be angry over losing planes on the return trip when you chose to give up control of them behind enemy lines. If you didn't want to loose more, you would pilot them back across the battle lines before pressing F.

And as for Counter-play for a CV vs. DD: Like I said,  Incorporate a Spotter Plane Consumable that works like the current Fighter Plane Consumable. Limited # of uses and area-of-effect for spotting just like how we use the Fighter Plane Consumable for Aircraft protection.

I played a total of 3 games since the rework. Just to test 3 things.

1. Using islands to exploit Los AA.

1a. Using attack runs to limit full squadron exposure to AA.

2. Using RL to flush DDs out of smoke using torps.

3. Quick cycling squadrons to launch partial squadrons so you don't have to wait for the returning planes after pressing "F".

Make returning subjected to AA and you'll just make #3 the go to exploit which does nothing to end your complaint. Only punish CVs who are not doing what you're trying to stop.

Lol anti DD spotter consumable. Have you ever tried being the last ship a float trying to "Counter" a DD using a spotter plane? 

Edit:

The f feature is the same as post drop return. Or are you forgetting about the planes returning after they drop.

 

Edited by StoneRhino

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They really need to do something about the concealment thing. IJN are not open water cruisers until x, and USN cruisers are never open water. Unfortunately you have to choose between being able to shoot and staying alive at this point. Any attempt to use an island to lob shells over promptly results in a plane spotting and battleship shells from all corners of the map peppering your ship. 

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18 hours ago, Madwolf05 said:

They couldn't be bothered to adapt to Radar when there was literally no issue with it.

Data, please. 

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