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WestPac_CG22

A Co-op Main's Perspective on Update 0.8.0

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"It's the end of the world as we know it" REM
So here it is the end of the week and four days since Update 0.8.0 and the CV/AA rework has been introduced to the live server. After spending some time reading forum posts and looking at the chat in game, one would think that:
1. That the sky is falling and the apocalypse has begun. OR
2. This is the biggest over-hyped event since Y2K. OR
3. None of the above.
Whichever camp you're in, it's pretty clear that the CV/AA rework has a lot of players voicing their opinion. Some of it positive, some of it negative, and some just down right salty.:Smile-angry:
Now, I'm a Co-op player, I've dabbled in Random at some lower and mid tiers, but for the most part, I enjoy playing Co-op and Operations. I'm also NOT a CV player. I tried playing a carrier at one point long before the rework and it was a total disaster. I did however, try the new carriers on the PTS and I have to say, that I enjoyed it a whole lot more than the old RTS version. I still didn't do very well, but I had a much easier time controlling the aircraft and setting up attack runs. Suffice it to say that for now, I'll just stick with the ships that I know and have worked best for me.

So here's my take from a Co-op point of view. My very first battle with the new update was in the New Mexico. We had a carrier on our team, but no carrier on the bot team. My initial thought was, "This is going to be a pretty one-sided battle", meaning that we were probably going to clean up the bots pretty handily. And we did. However, that all ended in the second battle. I was in the Atlanta and this time we had two carriers on our team and none on the other side. I would say we had a pretty good team, but we got our butts handed to us! The  carrier players struggled to contribute any damage and ended at the bottom of the leader board. It was clear that they were going to need time to get used to the new mechanics. For the rest of my time playing that day damage scores were the lowest I've had for quite awhile and my win/loss rate was the worst I've seen it since I first started playing this game.:Smile_amazed: By the end of the day though, all I could do was laugh. I lost more battles than I won that day but I realized that it most likely would have been much worse if WoWs had provided the bots with a carrier.
Having two carriers on our team definitely made it unbalanced and not in our favor. The bots appeared to have some minor changes in their programming as well and seemed a little more aggressive. I don't know if anyone else noticed that as well. With the enemy team having two extra BBs in place of carriers they were able to focus more fire power against our advancing ships and ignore the carriers until they came within close range. Even though I was playing ships that I've become fairly proficient with, it was all I could do that first day to not feel frustrated with my performance.  However, it did allow me to re-evaluate how I play certain ships and that tactics that used to work would have to be modified to adapt to this new meta.

Some of the changes I've made, depending on the ship I'm playing, is to provide carrier escort. This allows the carrier player to focus on their aircraft while I farm damage and draw fire from encroaching ships. Another change has been to slow my push to a cap or base even more than before and allow our carrier's aircraft to spot enemy ships and then reposition myself accordingly. The spotting range with the new aircraft seems to have improved greatly with the rework. Just these two modifications in the last four days have dramatically helped to bring my damage score and win rate back to a level I feel satisfied with.

My game play has improved since the update dropped on Tuesday, but that has left me with some questions:
1. Is WoWs going to add carriers back to the bot teams at some point in the future. And if so will DD players in Co-op be facing the same situations as they are now in Random battles? In the old system, Bot aircraft tended to focus more on BBs  Cruisers and CVs and would ignore DDs a much of the time.
2. How much will Co-op players have to modify their tactics when it comes to AA against Bot aircraft? In other words, at what level of accuracy will Bot aircraft be firing missiles and dropping torps and bombs and how much will the new AA be effective against them?
3. If there are to be no Bot carriers in Co-op, then will AA modules, consumables and captain skills become worthless in Co-op?

There are probably more questions than answers right now than I can think of, but it's getting late and I'm getting tired.

So I leave off with how I began:
"It's the end of the world as we know it, but I feel fine!"

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1) They currently can't put in bot planes because it would be able to either perfectly land every drop or run into every flak wall.

They would still focus BBs but the problem is that AA is so inconsistent that you have to clump up into 3 km blobs. If you're not playing RU DD or some other DD that can speed tank by dodging indefinite amounts of fire, forget it.

2) The new AA no longer provides consistent protection. In other words, the planes only die if they actually hit a flak wall. Otherwise it will take literally 90-120 seconds of taking the "continuous damage" to knock out a squad (for reference each run takes about 5 seconds and you only get 3-4 drops worth).

Rockets have an 80% chance of hitting a DD if allowed to fully aim.

DBs can reliably citadel if allowed to fully aim.

Torps are now wide enough that you generally only land 1 or maybe 2 on a DD, and are easily dodged unless placed flat broadside at point blank as they are now very slow. However rockets/DBs compensate for this handily.

3) One would hope so.

The alternative would be terrible.

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That pretty well sums up what I've seen in Co Op.  If we have 2 CV on team and get up tiered a bit or MM decided to get drunk and mess with us, then we had some work cut out for us. Lost a few battles that way but by and large, it was victory after victory despite the CV players not being able to scratch hardly anything. Most of my Co Op battles this week were in Atlanta and Sharnhorst.  One of the daily missions wanted 1000 main battery hits and 500 secondary battery hits.  ATL and Sharn are great for that!! :Smile_glasses:  Especially after I realized that Co Op was sky cancer free! (Sorry CV players! I still like you guys! Honest!! :Smile_trollface:)  The few Random battles I've played so far have been different.  I got deleted in the first match by a CV while playing an ARP Kongo, admittedly I had pulled a Notser and well deserved eating a full spread of torps.  :Smile_sad:  So not a good test.  I pulled out my ATL which is set for Co Op cause I suck with her in random.  Even with a non AA build in a random match I was able to help defend the area i was in for a bit.  Nothing to write home about.  I got only 4 plane kills, but at least I potted a BB before I Notsered and got tagged teamed by a bunch of ships and CV attack. Yeah, I'm a potato and I don't mind being called that. What I did notice was the amount of damage I caused to squadrons and the number that turned back or made pitiful attacks.   Forget plane kills as a meter stick,  watch the amount of damage done to a squadron before it can attack. From what I've seen so far Random reminds me somewhat of the days of Olde when if you wanted to survive and win, then you needed to figure out how to work as a team.  Going Solo and finding some rock to hide behind while setting an ambush isn't going to work anymore.  Yes, I'm looking :cap_look:at you WOT players that think you're still driving a tank with 1 gun, hiding behind some bush or under a bridge (insert sarcasm here).  It's early days and they need this to be done LIVE to collect enough data to make some tweaks.   Take a chill pill and buy some good vodka and drink a secret toast to Stalin in the hopes that WG will figure it out.  

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One thing im sick of in co op? "Oh we are down 1-2 ships because we have CV and our CV will be useless."  Getting reaaallllyyy old at this point, im no CV super uni but averaging 100k dmg at T8 in a cv isnt bad I would think.

Heck i pulled off a clutch win with 166k dmg and 4 kills, clock was ticking down the final score points and i sank the last ship.  It was me and another CV vs 5 ships and we sank them all.  When it ended my cv was capping a point to boot preventing the point gain.

Edited by JToney3449

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Hi JToney.  No disrespect intended  just my casual observations.  I've seen CV after CV in Co Op struggle to do anything.  Congrats on your being able to have a good match in Co Op.  :Smile_great:

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I have found most Co-Op games I played trying to get used to the new CV's I was the only human on either team I have moved onto randoms now that I have gotten the hang of the new CV's but I'm sure you will still be getting them in your matches for a while

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Am NOT a CV junky by any means, had only gotten as high as the ZUiho under the old system, but was working on them. With the odd tiers now removed, I figured I would "start from scratch" with the Langley.

Took her into Co-op to "find my feet" as it were....yeah...not pretty. There were 2 of us in CV's and we struggled for the win. Yes, some of that could be put down to learning the new way of things.....but when you see a single bot Wyoming with 36 plane kills.....yeah........think something might be a bit off with that.

Random is a little better.......but not by much. Have found that torps are pretty much worthless at the base tier. Can only launch one per run, and have found that TB's are that "squishy" the squad is usually decimated before it can get another drop completed. Attackers seem the easist, and offer fairly consistent damage....finding bombers somewhere in between.

 

Edit: If you were a new player starting on CV's....doubt many would make it to T6 .....given the current state.

Edited by KiwiColdbeer

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Its very hard for cvs to rack up damage post rework without some practice. Theres a lot of unhappy folks blaming those players for losses in co op sadly. Just tell the flat top to hold your beer and carry harder... its interesting that the cv rework may have changed co op meta... more having to torp ambush... more care given in the "to zerg or not to zerg" question... 

Too many times i see folks abandoning all hope when they see two friendly cvs in co op. The training wheels will be off of those cv rudders soon enough. Just take more care in your approach and all will be well.

Salt and downvotes are for randoms... not co op.

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It seems that the tsunami has somewhat subsided, at least for now. Surprising, considering it's the weekend.

Haven't seen a 2-CV auto-fail match all morning, so things are getting back to normal.

Co-op has always had a much higher CV population than PvP, both human and AI, so having one on the team is pretty much routine. Regular Co-op players are used to it. It is kind of nice not having a red bot CV spewing planes in all directions.

I feel sorry for the CV newbies because the ship auto-pilot mechanics are still broken. I try to warn them to not plot turns more than 90 degrees and use wide spacing of way points to avoid clown-car navigation.

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Nice observations WestPac! I have noticed that when we have two carriers on our co-op team, we tend to lose more than if we only have one. IMHO this is because CV players are struggling to learn and struggling to do damage. The extra bot BB guns really punish the human team. It also seems as if the bot battleships are moving more as a group than I ever remember before. I seem to encounter them in twos and threes where before the rework, they would be spread out on the map. Not sure if this is a change or it has just been my luck, hard to say. 

Something else, it is kind of ephemeral but I wanted to mention it. Something has changed in co-op play. Not talking about carriers, something else that I can not put my finger on. I know it sounds stupid but the matches just don't "feel right". Not sure if the AI got a buff or their behavior changed. The only things I have noticed are the BBs in packs and I seem to be shooting at the rear end of battleships more as they move away from me... The bots are not standing their ground and fighting, they make a close broadside pass and then sail off leaving me to shoot at their butts with my BB (assuming they survive). BTW what I tend to do with my BBs is to advance toward the bot BB nose first and angled a bit while holding fire while they shoot me. When I have a perfect broadside, I blast them and often times this will delete them in one salvo. I have a ton of games under my belt and have done this often, but I have been UNABLE to do this since the patch. Either the bots move in so close that I can not shoot, they ram me, or they angle off on approach. I tried doing this all night with my battleships, I could not. Maybe I am just having a bad streak but really, I have done this more times than I can remember and have not been able to execute it at all since the patch. 

Edited by Taylor3006
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20 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

When I have a perfect broadside, I blast them and often times this will delete them in one salvo. I have a ton of games under my belt and have done this often, but I have been UNABLE to do this since the patch. Either the bots move in so close that I can not shoot, they ram me, or they angle off on approach. I tried doing this all night with my battleships, I could not. Maybe I am just having a bad streak but really, I have done this more times than I can remember and have not been able to execute it at all since the patch.

Well, it seems like bots get 100% normalization and human players 0%, but that's just staying up all night and tin foil talking.

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The suicidally aggressive nature of bots make CVs, which deal damage over long periods of time, weaker picks than BBs over shorter match lengths.

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1 hour ago, Xanshin said:

Its very hard for cvs to rack up damage post rework without some practice. Theres a lot of unhappy folks blaming those players for losses in co op sadly. Just tell the flat top to hold your beer and carry harder... its interesting that the cv rework may have changed co op meta... more having to torp ambush... more care given in the "to zerg or not to zerg" question... 

Too many times i see folks abandoning all hope when they see two friendly cvs in co op. The training wheels will be off of those cv rudders soon enough. Just take more care in your approach and all will be well.

Salt and downvotes are for randoms... not co op.

This is what I was explaining to my team-mates when I was dusting the snowflake off my Ranger on patch night, that CVs can no longer one-shot or severely chunk down battleships the way they used to, and the surface ships have to carry harder until the CV drivers get into the groove and can contribute more damage.

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11 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

This is what I was explaining to my team-mates when I was dusting the snowflake off my Ranger on patch night, that CVs can no longer one-shot or severely chunk down battleships the way they used to, and the surface ships have to carry harder until the CV drivers get into the groove and can contribute more damage.

Ive changed how i approach the fight when cvs are present. More torp ambushes in ca/cl, more bow tanking in bbs, more smoke and choosing targets carefully with dds... much much much more defensive playstyle than im accustomed to in co op.

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I am perfectly willing to attempt to carry harder while teammates in CV's learn the ropes. 

I am also going to wait a bit before I get my feet wet as a CV driver again. 

I don't want to add to the angst by derping around in my Langley while my teammates have to contend with the BB wolfpacks that seem to be present in 0.8.0 co-op.

p.s. - +1 to OP for an excellent post.

Edited by Captain_Slattery

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This BIGGEST problem with the rework is that folks are trying out the new mode for the first time....in T8 and T10 CV's.  What they should have done was find a way to "lock" all of your CV's and have you progress back through to T10.  10 matches in the 4's, 5 in the rest until you hit T10, with your Prem CV's "unlocking" when you reach T8.  The exception would be folks who actually went to PTS and did a minimum number of battles there.  Then you could use what you wish.  Had they did something like that, things wouldn't be so harsh.

 

See, when we first went Open (or was it release?  I forget), there were SO MANY people buying Atlanta and just absolutely throwing matches into the hole trying to learn what to do and what not.  They pulled her from the shop for a few weeks.  The complaints were not as bad as what we see now, but still pretty bad.

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55 minutes ago, Volron said:

This BIGGEST problem with the rework is that folks are trying out the new mode for the first time....in T8 and T10 CV's.  What they should have done was find a way to "lock" all of your CV's and have you progress back through to T10.  10 matches in the 4's, 5 in the rest until you hit T10, with your Prem CV's "unlocking" when you reach T8.  The exception would be folks who actually went to PTS and did a minimum number of battles there.  Then you could use what you wish.  Had they did something like that, things wouldn't be so harsh.

 

See, when we first went Open (or was it release?  I forget), there were SO MANY people buying Atlanta and just absolutely throwing matches into the hole trying to learn what to do and what not.  They pulled her from the shop for a few weeks.  The complaints were not as bad as what we see now, but still pretty bad.

I was playing my T6 and T8 CVs in co-op the first day as WG refreshed the snowflakes as they were new ships. So I was able to get 420 Steel and 2940 Coal from the new CVs.

Edited by Kizarvexis

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1 hour ago, Captain_Slattery said:

I don't want to add to the angst by derping around in my Langley while my teammates have to contend with the BB wolfpacks that seem to be present in 0.8.0 co-op.

The problem I see with this attitude is that you prolong the period for which unpractised CV drivers are in the game. I know why you're doing it, and I can't help but approve of your desire not to make things worse, but I do wonder if it's not one of those good intentions that paves the road to you-know-where.

It's interesting that some co-op mains are always complaining that they don't have enough enemies to kill. Well, put two complete newbie CV drivers in the battle who have no impact on the battle through no fault of their own, and that's effectively what you get; six versus eight. The one thing the co-op mains need to keep in mind now is that the carrier actively needs to be protected.

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It made for some tougher games with 1 or 2 CV's p/ game and players who didn't know how to use them so they did little to nothing. But I had some really good games too as a result. Playing DD's so you can hide and torp or BB's so you have the lasting power seemed to be the way to go. I left the CL/CA's in port for the most part as Bots are way too accurate and if we are playing at a deficit in BB's before a shot has been fired well, no thanks LOL.

I don't mind the players coming to Co-op to learn however. Everyone is welcome in my book (just leave the PVP salt over there please LOL) and I defended a lot of CV players in chat - they have a right to be here too - just play. I think it would have served some well to go to the TR 1st and learn the controls however. I did not play PTS but had Langley in port so I tried it in TR. I would not have inflicted my poor initial skills on anyone; not even a Co-op team. The controls are not easy to learn so get familiar with them 1st where you don't impact a real game is the way to do it at least IMHO. Then go to Co-op until you are comfortable in live action and then go to PVP if that is where you like to play.

I hope WG gets the bot AI done in a timely manner although I hold no hope for this. I fear they will take MONTHS or longer and that is an issue for a player like me. This initial free respec and reset period is short and we only get one more when 8.2 rolls around (about then according to a Dev Blog post on reddit). I don't (and won't) play PVP so I can't test the various Capt skills and AA modules vs a CV. I have no idea what works and what doesn't. I have 50+ ships w/ Capt's I had setup for AA that now all had to be changed/reset. No sense in doing AA builds again as no planes to face. I fear that when they finally get the bot AI done (if) that it will cost me a FORTUNE to get everything reset. I may just have to bite the bullet and do it in the next reset and just guess.  Would be nice if WG would do one more free reset once the bot AI is done so Co-op players don't have to pay to change but I don't see it happening.

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6 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The problem I see with this attitude is that you prolong the period for which unpractised CV drivers are in the game. I know why you're doing it, and I can't help but approve of your desire not to make things worse, but I do wonder if it's not one of those good intentions that paves the road to you-know-where.

It's interesting that some co-op mains are always complaining that they don't have enough enemies to kill. Well, put two complete newbie CV drivers in the battle who have no impact on the battle through no fault of their own, and that's effectively what you get; six versus eight. The one thing the co-op mains need to keep in mind now is that the carrier actively needs to be protected.

I think you miss the Good Capt's point. We had a discussion about this and I believe he agrees with my theory on it.

  1. Start in TR against stationary non firing bots until you are used to the controls and can easily hit the stationary targets. It isn't that easy initially.
  2. Make the bots move but not shoot until you are comfortable hitting them.
  3. Make the bots move AND shoot and play a few to make sure you can handle moving the CV as well as the planes so you don't get sunk. 
  4. Once you are comfortable in TR then go to Co-op and play.

So I don't think he means anything more than get used to the controls 1st and then go to Co-op and eventually PVP.

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34 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

I was playing my T6 and T8 CVs in co-op the first day as WG refreshed the snowflakes as they were new ships. So I was able to get 420 Steel and 2940 Coal from the new CVs.

 Nothing wrong with that, I did the same.  While I did have some time on the PTS, I still started with my 6's and went up when I was knocking off the snowflakes.

 

EDIT: Not sure how IMAGES ended up in the post...  Must be a key combination.  :cap_hmm:

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13 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

So I don't think he means anything more than get used to the controls 1st and then go to Co-op and eventually PVP.

I see the point now. Thanks. 

Ultimately there still comes the time when you have to fight alongside other humans, and unless you have a reliable source of clanmates or whatever to practise with, the training room is not going to do that for you.

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24 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I see the point now. Thanks. 

Ultimately there still comes the time when you have to fight alongside other humans, and unless you have a reliable source of clanmates or whatever to practise with, the training room is not going to do that for you.

Agreed BUT going to the TR is nothing more than adjusting to handling the planes and getting used to keeping the CV moving and out of detection/range of other ships 1st. I don't mean do 100 TR battles or anything LOL. Just 5-10 or so until you at least can handle the planes and have a small clue what to do with the ship. Then go into Co-op and play until you are comfortable with the ship before going to PVP.

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  My experience has been as a surface ship driver only.  I've never CV'd, and now likely never will.

 Anyhow,  Something definitely seems to have changed with the bots.  It's all extremes now- you either get the maxed out "killer" bots;  or you get the lobotomized "derpalicious"  bots.  Nothing in between.    Also the "CHASE THE F%&$#*G DD!!!!!!" has been cranked up to 13.  If you get a game with 1 DD, the entire bot team will charge and chase it- EVERY time.   The results depend on which group of bots you got, the SEALs, or the retreads.   The former will wipe out everything in their path, the latter will just do incredibly stupid and mindless things- like completely ignoring ships smashing shot after shot into their broadsides.

  The extra BB's mean more murder balls.  They've always liked to do this, but it's more common now.

  BB's have just sucked to play the last few days- you either get crap, because your team deleted the idiot bots in seconds;  or you end up focused by half the red team after they dismantle yours.  Or YOUR team pulls a derp, and runs and hides- leaving you out to dry.  I've seen this FAR too many times lately.   Seriously people: THIS IS NOT RANDOMS!!!!  Running, hiding, etc won't help you!    A BB just doesn't have the RoF or DPM to contribute much to the roflstomp- or carry if your team gets trashed.  The glacial turret traverse of many- like Musashi- is especially painful here, because the bots close range fast.   And there, you're screwed- your turrets simply can't keep up.   And as someone else mentioned, the turning and running away bots...

 Cruisers otoh, have done VERY well, indeed.  I've pulled off more "I can't believe I got away with that!!"s lately than you can shake a stick at.   Yeah, it helps that I prefer to play US CA's- who can brutalize things badly- but CL's and even Huang He have been rewarding, too.

DD's are a mixed bag.  Mainly because I had to completely re-imagine my playstyle in them.   But once you make the necessary adjustments, you can CLEAN house!    The more I play Ognevoi and Benson, the more I like them!

  And, or course, all the insanely frustrating bot cheats are present in spades...  Not so much the LOLtorp dodge nonsense, as the "HA HA!!! you can't hurt me!!  bounces and shatters that would have been crushing blows vs a human.  Or the start and stop on a dime nonsense when you're shooting at them.   They, on the other hand, can always get the normal pens, citadels, and module pops, no matter how well you angle or dodge.

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There is something I'd like to point out and ask:  Who in their ANY mind decided it was a good idea to allow CV's to use RPF???  I see that as a MAJOR issue right now, and it should DEFINITELY go.  Too easy to hunt DD's.  I whole heartily side with DD players on RPF's usability on CV's.

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