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Kongo_Pride

A Captain's Challenge, The Player versus In-Game Commander

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Hello Captains,

On 18 January 2019, @njroc proposed a few questions that he believed had not been addressed on the boards before.  His first question was to determine if a mediocre captain with a 19-point commander could play with similar results as a unicum player with a 0-point captain.  He seemed curious to learn at what point does the actual human skill take over in the game and what really is the driving factor for playing well.  

Based on that initial information, I went out and recruited a “mediocre” captain to assist me in an experiment that I felt would sufficiently be able to meet the criteria of a mediocre captain.  Unfortunately, I my requested criteria was too refined and or potential candidates who expressed interest never got back into contact with me.  However, @dbw86 accepted my offer and brought on board, and I want to thank him for all his hard work, dedication, and support in getting this information together.

So, what were my findings?  Well, I would argue, based on the play and results, that a skilled player with a 0-point captain will consistently outperform a mediocre player with 19-point captain assigned to their ships.  Furthermore, I assess with high confidence that a skilled player will adapt better to the handicap so to speak and still be able to carry matches, that otherwise mediocre players simply cannot accomplish.  Below is a breakdown of the experiment, supporting data/analysis and evidence to show how I came to this conclusion.

For starters, I let the mediocre player choose which ship and tier we were going to use as the test ship.  In other words, DBW86 got home field advantage.  He choose the Des Moines, a cruiser to which I am not overly great at.  Granted, I had a decent win rate in the ship at 63+ percent, but my average damage, PR, and other areas were not near the level of unicum.  So, simply starting out, I was at a disadvantage as far as ships that I as the skilled player felt comfortable with.  However, upon further review, I noticed that my counterpart, while having an overall 42+ percent win rate in the game, could only muster a 26 percent win rate in the Des Moines with an average damage in the “bad” category of wows numbers NA.  I fell into the “Great” category.  So, in some way, we were both uncomfortable with the ship when compared to where we normally perform overall.

For this, I asked him to email me his starting ship package, which included camo, signals, flags, premium consumables, and modules used as well as his assigned 19 point commander and selected commander picks.  I told him, I would be selecting my own and not mirroring him.  I wanted this to be understood up front because I often find skilled players make more selective, overall useful choices in specing their ships than others.  Example, ever see a battleship at tier X with Survivability Expert as a captain perk?

Loadout:  Dbw86 chose to do the following with his Des Moines; Captain – Priority Target, Preventative Maintenance, Jack of All Trades, Expert Marksman, Adrenaline Rush, Superintendent, Advanced Firing Training, and Concealment Expert; Modules – Main Armaments Modification 1, Damage Control Systems Modification 1, Main Battery Modification, Steering Gears Modification 2, Concealment System Modification 1, Enhanced Propulsion (Legendary Mod); he selected all premium consumables with the following choices – damage control, hydroacoustic search, radar, and heal; Camo – He selected the premium camo, which can be purchased for 5,000 doubloons and offers the following -- -3%/+4%/-50% post repair cost/+20% credits/+100% experience; Signals – None; and Flags – Military Month Contributor +5% (which is a nice bonus as well).  While he possesses a premium account, we derived statistics from battles, specifically, economic from a basic account found in the tables of the battle results screen.

Analysis:  There could certainly have been some better choices.  In my opinion a lot of opportunities for synergy were missed, and when you do this, you are already setting yourself behind the power curve, and in many ways letting me, the skilled player opportunities to be on the same playing level, despite not having a captain of similar skill.  Example, Advanced Firing coupled with Hydro, just didn’t seem to pair well together.  I fondly recall in one match, DBW86 saying that he didn’t really use hydro, because it just doesn’t help him enough.  (Note:  He is an older player and reaction times are just harder to repeat.)  So, the torpedo alarm is often wasted, if hydro is even used.  In this instance, I would go with the sure thing, and just choose DFAA.  I play to win, so another area of concern is in the Signals area.  This doesn’t mean you need to run all eight slots, but if you have 300 India X-Rays, throw some on, have fun with your ships.  Absolutely no signals seem to be a bit off, as you are playing tier X, and given the way coal can be farmed, these should not have been excluded.  Even just economic flags could have saved you a lot of lost credits farther down the road.  

Loadout:  For me, I chose the following; Captain – 0 points, rip me; Modules – Main Armaments Modification 1, Surveillance Radar Modification 1, Aiming Systems Modification 1, Steering Gears Modification 2, Concealment Systems Modification 1, and Main Battery Modification 3; premium consumables – damage control, DFAA, Radar, and heal; Camo – New Year Streamer -3/+4% and more focused on farming free xp/commander xp (done to see how much captain xp I could earn with it over 30 battles); Signals – November Echo Setteseven, India X-ray, Victor Lima, Juliet Charlie, India Delta, Sierra Mike, November Foxtrot, and India Yankee; and Flag – Military Month Contributor.

Analysis:  I thought I had picked some very solid picks and wanted to focus on damage as much as possible, I expected to be rather useless, but wanted to hurt the enemies as much as possible before I succumbed.  I also tried to pair as much as I could for synergy, maximizing strengths such as radar, while minimizing weaknesses, weak citadel from AP bombs.  I also invested heavily into signals, I assumed my counterpart would do similar, but found later, he conserves specifically for Clan Battles only.  This helped to keep my ship alive longer as I had better speed, and in some ways, better output on damage.  The Des Moines has a great DPM, and I figured if I can get close with an island, I can certainly take advantage of the DPM.  There is one area I made a glaring oversight and it was very painful.  I am very used to having the benefits of Expert Marksman.  My turrets often failed me in knife fights, which was rather embarrassing a time or two when engaging just about anyone close range.  The other area was my 12.1km concealment.  Oof!!!  RIP!!!  This was frustrating to deal with, but with careful maneuvering, I was able to help limit the handicap.

The Experiment Requirements:  So, the experiment itself was done with 15 games solo play by each player in random PvP.  Then, we got together and divisioned together so that there could be no argument of, “you did better than me because your team was all unicums or mine were all AFK, etc.”  I am well aware that 30 games by each player (45 total) is a rather small sample size, but I think, it will be more than enough for the most hardened players on here to reach the same conclusions I did regarding the questions of njroc.  The experiment was conducted over a four day period going from 23 to 26 January 2019.

Here is the data:  Please note, for reasons of space on this server, I have withheld the final results screenshots, but anyone wishing to see them, I will more than gladly send them to you (plus replays as requested) as I have them all on file.  I understand, some out there can be skeptical of integrity, but I assure you they are accurate.  

Pre-Experiment:

(Kongo)

1822589870_DesMoinesKongoStart.thumb.png.f4a520221115c0182b84afce264ecef6.png

(DBW86)

1632722246_DesMoinesDBW86.thumb.png.4df7f7d8415f6eace414027a5c873aba.png

Independent Play:

(Kongo)

899264129_KongoIndependentPlay.thumb.png.5d0f00014689013fe94faa310297bd42.png

(DBW86)

1078738307_DBW86IndependentPlay.thumb.png.dffd38380f207d65e6e922bf750daefe.png

Division Play:

(Kongo)

116722845_KongoDivisionPlay.thumb.png.7215396f162fefc6cece9bc63f5f60a1.png

(DBW86)

120107856_DBW86DivisionPlay.thumb.png.c20be4b9d81ecc68bd70f629b31acdce.png

Post-Experiment:

(Kongo)

1945461971_DesMoinesPostKongo.thumb.png.43c59c86db40249ef371475dec4daca8.png

(DBW86)

1088573151_DesMoinesPostDBW86.thumb.png.1a4075212085ba030bad8ad96c805e9c.png

Note: A few of the final screenshots were not entirely available and the fiscal results from those screenshots are estimated.  This happens, and I would say that those estimates are within 95 percent of the actual number they are placeholding.

Data Analysis:  There is a lot of information to be gleaned from these snippets of data.  Overall, the main point I would like to make is that neither player saw significant improvement or a deterioration in gameplay.  However, it is interesting that my skills did little to carry us more often in Division play, which kind of surprised me.  Although, there were several games, I came close.  AFKs...are still hard to overcome.  Surprisingly, I exceeded my own expectations of performance, in fact, members of my clan were noting that I should just run a zero point captain in the future as it seems to suit me better.  DBW86 improved his own win rate in the Des Moines, and while many might scoff at a 4 percent increase in one's win rate, his overall for the experiment did reach closer to his actual win rate, which is good to see.  Solo, I had a really good win rate, however in division play, we got rocked.  Now, it was the weekend when we divisioned, and these games were clearly marked for the weekend results, where we had some rough team makeup.  However, that said, there were some other major conclusions, despite a higher survival rate/time alive in battle, I was significantly more capable of impacting and or carrying games as necessary.  More importantly, I was able to do more damage, sink more ships, and in matches with CVs, I was a tad-bit more effective because of my DFAA, despite a 5km AA bubble. DBW86 averaged a final finish of over 7, while I was around 2.5 between the two experiments.  Again, this is probably one of the most telling categories as it shows where I was able to finish, despite my handicap.  With more wins and higher finishes it also lends credibility to the fact that I carried numerous matches.  Base experience was also another glaring consideration, the difference is very clear between both wins and losses and even in division play.  It is important to note that I was not always ahead of DBW86 in base experience, but when I wasn't it always resulted in a loss for the team overall, again, an indicator that a skilled player can still carry while a mediocre player with a high skill captain still struggles to repeat/replicate that level of play.  Surprisingly, both of us had a solid understanding of how to use and switch Des Moines ammunition, I was just better able to see it become effective in battles.

Gratitude:  I was able to provide a lot of tips, but invariably, one's own state of mind and health are serious factors of consideration, and I think @dbw86 knows what I am saying when I make that comment.  I hope folks here can read between the lines on that comment, and understand that I only hope to be doing what he can when I reach such a stage in life.  His passion for this game is commendable, and I really want to say, it was an HONOR, to play with you.

Conclusions:  I think the real question njroc was posing was at what point is player skill more indicative of play than the ship.  Many "OP" ships exist and many "UP" also exist.  Yet, a mediocre players struggle in OP ships, while skilled players can take the UP ships, such as Krasny Krym and find new and creative ways to make them work, even if it requires a lot of hard work to do so.  I must admit, due to the CV rework, I almost decided to completely scrap this project, but the better in me realized this is still relevant data that is good information for the community to consume and use to help them realize that when a ship is underperforming, it is not the assigned captain, but the player.  If a few people get something from this, then this will have been a win, an easy win.  

Recommendations:  I think, and will post a topical idea for a proposal from WG about the formation of a think-tank.  Essentially, a small group of skilled WOWS players who can convene and look more introspective of the game itself and at what is presently available, while fielding questions such as these from the forums.  The reality is, almost everyone who is contributing to this game seems bent on the future, instead of looking at what is really going on internally and addressing these kind of player concerns with a focused granularity that it needs.  People like @Lert and @LittleWhiteMouse have done similar looks at things like turning radius of ships in the past, but in large part, CCs, Supertesters, Clantesters, and WOWS/WG staff seem focused on the next line or next change or even the next ship coming to the game.  They are busy looking at the future and we oft forget the subtleties of changes in the game and whether a ship is still sustainable, and in this case, what really makes the biggest difference in performance.

Final:  If you have an in-game request, please post it in the forums and @Kongo_Prideand I will do my best to address this.  Thoughts and feedback from the community greatly appreciated.

 

Edited by Kongo_Pride
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Thank you both @Kongo_Pride and @dbw86 for taking the time to do this. Much respect to both.

*goes to read the whole thing*

<Edit>

Hokay, that was a long read. Thanks for doing this experiment, both of you, once again. The results were as I expected, but the insights you provide are valuable. As someone squarely in between both of you in WR I find both viewpoints interesting, and your breakdown of certain aspects and ruminations on the state of the game are fascinating to me.

One word about one of your comments - as ST I am very preoccupied with the future of the game, upcoming content etc, to the point where it's difficult to take the time to look at the current state of the game and where it came from. Part of this is due to the work load WG heaps on us (right now I have 11 test ships sitting in port and 10 days to 'do' them, at a time requirement of about 3.5 hours per) and part of it is the 'oh, shiny new thing' aspect. I will try to read between the lines here too and think more about whether older ships / and meta choices are still viable.

<Edit 2>

You mentioned that DBW is an older player and hinted that he might not be the healthiest person out there. I sometimes forget that these people also play this game, as well they have every right to do so, without getting harassed for their performance. Something we all could try to remember a bit more.

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w o w  RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE all this just proves is that wargaming favors the """"""""unicum"""" players with amazing RNG. There is no way you legit did that well with a 0 point captain and tbh I want to see replays with proof (O wait, new patch, can't. How convenient.) Obviously you must pay wargaming and they let you get away with using a hackpack most likely. The purple clan tag gives away that you use hacks. What does this test even conclude? Are you just jerking off your fellow """"good players""""""""" by saying that you are good at anything you do? That's pretty toxic if you ask me. This test needs more data and a redo and PROOF. Downvote this man.

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Just now, ub3r_Sn1p3r said:

w o w  RREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE all this just proves is that wargaming favors the """"""""unicum"""" players with amazing RNG. There is no way you legit did that well with a 0 point captain and tbh I want to see replays with proof (O wait, new patch, can't. How convenient.) Obviously you must pay wargaming and they let you get away with using a hackpack most likely. The purple clan tag gives away that you use hacks. What does this test even conclude? Are you just jerking off your fellow """"good players""""""""" by saying that you are good at anything you do? That's pretty toxic if you ask me. This test needs more data and a redo and PROOF. Downvote this man.

oof.  I expected nothing less from you comrade! :Smile-_tongue:

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Good read, it's pretty telling though the difference solo play and division play can do though. I often hear being in a division is an instant increase to your win rate, survival, damage, etc. but it really isn't an instant recipe for success (although results do tend to start coming after you get a feel for your fellows' playstyles so long as you work at it). I've noticed as well that when divisioning with players I'm unfamiliar with I tend to have a lower survival rate and damage as well, as you tend to start moving to help a mate out of a bad situation or getting aggressive believing you have support without proper communication relaying your intentions. This is as opposed to solo where you can morally rationalize ditching a failing flank for a strategically superior position or requiring communication that support is available before moving in. Had the experiment gone on longer I'm curious to see how your stats in division would react beyond just the win rate specifically, though that would likely take a significantly higher number of games!

As for you with a 0 point captain permanently... whatever floats your boat man, and in this case it's pretty clear a decent captain is just dragging you down.

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3 minutes ago, Reskird said:

whatever floats your boat man

Hitpoints.

Certainly not the captain, apparently.

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Ummmm, correct me if I read this wrong, but, your volunteer has a 42% wr?    I'm not mocking the guy, but that's not a mediocre player, by my understanding of the meaning of mediocre.  Mediocre is passable, is it not?  Pretending that we had no idea dbw had health issues, etc... people would call him bad.

So, you didn't really answer your question.   You would need a player closer to 50ish%.

 

Again, my apologies about classing dbw as "bad", it just seems a bigger skill gap than anybody could expect to bridge even with a 19pt capt.

It would be interesting if you did this with a range of captains with increasing skill, to see where the cutoff is.   :)

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57 minutes ago, Kongo_Pride said:

People like @Lert and @LittleWhiteMouse have done similar looks at things like turning radius of ships in the past, but in large part, CCs, Supertesters, Clantesters, and WOWS/WG staff seem focused on the next line or next change or even the next ship coming to the game.  They are busy looking at the future and we oft forget the subtleties of changes in the game and whether a ship is still sustainable, and in this case, what really makes the biggest difference in performance.

Sadly for many CCs that rely on having an audience to help pay the bills, talking about old stuff doesn't generate the clicks.

I've long since resigned that I'm not getting any clicks which is why I make myself available as much as possible on these message boards and Discord.  I spend an hour or two a day just answering mechanics related questions, offering opinions and providing my own perspective on various topics of the day.  I used to do the same on Reddit, but it's long been an echo chamber of "only one correct opinion" and it's not a healthy place for discussion.  The problem ultimately becomes how to reach a large enough audience and finding those that genuinely want help.

Talking at length about the core of the game is all well and fine, but let's be honest:  Only a small fraction of the player population has any inclination of reading or hearing about this stuff.  Even the guides written with novices in mind are primarily read by experienced veterans looking back to see if the advice given conforms to their own experience and opinions.  It is rare that a new player stumbles upon it.  If you have an idea how to reach out to players that "need" help but aren't looking for it, I'm all ears.

Edited by LittleWhiteMouse
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5 minutes ago, Nukelavee45 said:

Ummmm, correct me if I read this wrong, but, your volunteer has a 42% wr?    I'm not mocking the guy, but that's not a mediocre player, by my understanding of the meaning of mediocre.  Mediocre is passable, is it not?  Pretending that we had no idea dbw had health issues, etc... people would call him bad.

So, you didn't really answer your question.   You would need a player closer to 50ish%.

 

Again, my apologies about classing dbw as "bad", it just seems a bigger skill gap than anybody could expect to bridge even with a 19pt capt.

It would be interesting if you did this with a range of captains with increasing skill, to see where the cutoff is.   :)

Fair point. Again, that would involve more time, more players, and more coordination.  Hence my "think-tank" suggestion from within the player base to help address larger concerns/get more concrete results in testing/experiments.

Also, I had several mediocre players that had shown initial interest but failed to respond to PMs.  Not a great excuse, but it is what I went with.

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5 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

Talking at length about the core of the game is all well and fine, but let's be honest:  Only a small fraction of the player population has any inclination of reading or hearing about this stuff.  Even the guides written with novices in mind are primarily read by experienced veterans looking back to see if the advice given conforms to their own experience and opinions.  It is rare that a new player stumbles upon it.  If you have an idea how to reach out to players that "need" help but aren't looking for it, I'm all ears.

I cannot argue with the writeups/who actually reads it.

I think this is where my idea of a think-tank comes in.  Off the cuff, the first idea would be that as a new player is leaving "protected status" they get a message in game asking if they would like to speak to mentor/trainer.  This could be an in-game player who has agreed to help develop new players (A Captains Academy that I have suggested in other threads).  In other words guide them along the path for a couple of days in division/chat (or merely forward them to key articles on the forums/wiki/etc.)  It would at minimum open the eyes of newer players to more possibilities outside of the startup screen, a few how it works videos upon login, and their own...self paced baptism by fire/learning experience.  WG would have to get on board with this, manage this, and quite frankly groom the program to have enough players to cover everyone starting up.  Who knows...a warm welcome may also assist in player retention.

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I want to thank Kongo Pride for his patience with me throughout this test.    I have consistently rated myself in this game as a below average to low average player.  (That may have been overly generous after this test I fear)   For most of the past year I've played this game several hours most days on an a new Apple iMac 27" and had all kinds of problems with freezing and having to force quit, then try to get back into the game before discovering I had ben sunk.   Finally this past December I ordered a PC with all the latest stuff in it for gaming with a 27" monitor and discovered tons of things I never before saw, or even knew were in the game.   On my Apple I ran absolutely lowest settings.   Now I see shrubs, tree's buildings and my ships show an unbelievable degree of detail, even some rivets and such.

I joined the Corps in 1959 serving 14 years making Gunny in 12 before getting out in 74.   After a 10 year break I joined for 8 more years  the Army NatGd as a 1stSgt before retiring in 92.  I also served 25 years as a Police Officer (1974-99) retiring as Commander/Director of a tri-county police and corrections academy.    One of the constant things I always harped on, and applied rigidly to myself,  was  the old "Dirty Harry" line - "A MAN OUGHT TO KNOW HIS OWN LIMITATIONS!"  

I honestly believe I've advanced my fleet to it's current 82 ship level, selling off a lot of the lower tiers, by carful and dedicated planning and research on every ship in the cruiser and battle ship lines of the various nations.   At the time of this test I only had one 19 point Capt (still do) and three  T10 Ships (Des Moines,  Worcester, & Hindenburg).    Since then I've added the Moskva, and am closing on a Henri IV.    I am 77 years old, take a number of medications daily for my heart and back which does negatively affect my physical abilities.    One of the medicines I take daily really negatively impacts my short term memory and causes me a great deal of frustration!     I am no longer able to memorize and input information to my brain and later recall it instantly as I used to be able to do.    Recently I  had cataract surgery and wear glasses for reading and  the computer.  So I offer no excuses for my poor play as my equipment is top notch, but obviously medicines and age are a larger impact that I realized until this test.    I simply am unable to rapidly process the massive amount of sensory intake of playing this game, sort, understand its importance and convert it to commands to my hands and fingers for them to execute in coordination with my sight.    

Perhaps one of the most frustrating of all things to me is my poor marksmanship with my ship's guns.   I've shot firearms since kindergarden and have always been a good shot.   In the military I was an Expert shot and later High Expert.   In police work I was not only a firearms instructor for revolvers, semi-auto pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns and even chemical launching weapons but was ultimately a Certified Range Master routinely shooting a qualifying score between 98 to 100.    My poor marksmanship skills in this game is humiliating and frustrating personal!    It also strongly contributes to my inability to capitalize on easy targets of opportunity consistently.    

But I play most days from 4 to as long as 10 hours and enjoy the game immensely, most of the players and my clan mates.  Playing with Kongo Pride I learned a great deal about the game and how it is played.    How much I will be able to translate into my own play remains to be seen, but I'm sure going to try!    WIN OR SINK!

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21 minutes ago, Nukelavee45 said:

Ummmm, correct me if I read this wrong, but, your volunteer has a 42% wr?    I'm not mocking the guy, but that's not a mediocre player, by my understanding of the meaning of mediocre.  Mediocre is passable, is it not?  Pretending that we had no idea dbw had health issues, etc... people would call him bad.

So, you didn't really answer your question.   You would need a player closer to 50ish%.

 

Again, my apologies about classing dbw as "bad", it just seems a bigger skill gap than anybody could expect to bridge even with a 19pt capt.

It would be interesting if you did this with a range of captains with increasing skill, to see where the cutoff is.   :)

You sited the win rate but did you notice the trends charts, they were all climbing. This indicates the player is improving. There are other factor that effect the win rate unrelated to the player's skill.

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1 minute ago, dbw86 said:

How much I will be able to translate into my own play remains to be seen, but I'm sure going to try!    WIN OR SINK!

That's the attitude I love seeing in people. Win rates and DPG values don't matter to me, attitude does. You're welcome on my team any day of the week. And much respect to you.

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14 minutes ago, dbw86 said:

I want to thank Kongo Pride for his patience with me throughout this test.    I have consistently rated myself in this game as a below average to low average player.  (That may have been overly generous after this test I fear)   For most of the past year I've played this game several hours most days on an a new Apple iMac 27" and had all kinds of problems with freezing and having to force quit, then try to get back into the game before discovering I had ben sunk.   Finally this past December I ordered a PC with all the latest stuff in it for gaming with a 27" monitor and discovered tons of things I never before saw, or even knew were in the game.   On my Apple I ran absolutely lowest settings.   Now I see shrubs, tree's buildings and my ships show an unbelievable degree of detail, even some rivets and such.

I joined the Corps in 1959 serving 14 years making Gunny in 12 before getting out in 74.   After a 10 year break I joined for 8 more years  the Army NatGd as a 1stSgt before retiring in 92.  I also served 25 years as a Police Officer (1974-99) retiring as Commander/Director of a tri-county police and corrections academy.    One of the constant things I always harped on, and applied rigidly to myself,  was  the old "Dirty Harry" line - "A MAN OUGHT TO KNOW HIS OWN LIMITATIONS!"  

I honestly believe I've advanced my fleet to it's current 82 ship level, selling off a lot of the lower tiers, by carful and dedicated planning and research on every ship in the cruiser and battle ship lines of the various nations.   At the time of this test I only had one 19 point Capt (still do) and three  T10 Ships (Des Moines,  Worcester, & Hindenburg).    Since then I've added the Moskva, and am closing on a Henri IV.    I am 77 years old, take a number of medications daily for my heart and back which does negatively affect my physical abilities.    One of the medicines I take daily really negatively impacts my short term memory and causes me a great deal of frustration!     I am no longer able to memorize and input information to my brain and later recall it instantly as I used to be able to do.    Recently I  had cataract surgery and wear glasses for reading and  the computer.  So I offer no excuses for my poor play as my equipment is top notch, but obviously medicines and age are a larger impact that I realized until this test.    I simply am unable to rapidly process the massive amount of sensory intake of playing this game, sort, understand its importance and convert it to commands to my hands and fingers for them to execute in coordination with my sight.    

Perhaps one of the most frustrating of all things to me is my poor marksmanship with my ship's guns.   I've shot firearms since kindergarden and have always been a good shot.   In the military I was an Expert shot and later High Expert.   In police work I was not only a firearms instructor for revolvers, semi-auto pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns and even chemical launching weapons but was ultimately a Certified Range Master routinely shooting a qualifying score between 98 to 100.    My poor marksmanship skills in this game is humiliating and frustrating personal!    It also strongly contributes to my inability to capitalize on easy targets of opportunity consistently.    

But I play most days from 4 to as long as 10 hours and enjoy the game immensely, most of the players and my clan mates.  Playing with Kongo Pride I learned a great deal about the game and how it is played.    How much I will be able to translate into my own play remains to be seen, but I'm sure going to try!    WIN OR SINK!

Amazing that’s what world of warships should really be  about. I salute you for all the years you’ve given your country and like previously mentioned it’s the attitude that counts. You can’t take you PR or WR to your grave anyfuckingway. Once again what a great story. I try my best when I play to not comment on people’s bad play ( not like I never screw up myself lol ) because like anything else in life some people are great at things some people get by and some scrape by but in the end what brings us together is our love for the game. 😊

Edited by sheppard12
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1 hour ago, Kongo_Pride said:

Hello Captains,

On 18 January 2019, @njroc proposed a few questions that he believed had not been addressed on the boards before.  His first question was to determine if a mediocre captain with a 19-point commander could play with similar results as a unicum player with a 0-point captain.  He seemed curious to learn at what point does the actual human skill take over in the game and what really is the driving factor for playing well.  

Based on that initial information, I went out and recruited a “mediocre” captain to assist me in an experiment that I felt would sufficiently be able to meet the criteria of a mediocre captain.  Unfortunately, I my requested criteria was too refined and or potential candidates who expressed interest never got back into contact with me.  However, @dbw86 accepted my offer and brought on board, and I want to thank him for all his hard work, dedication, and support in getting this information together.

 

One HUGE snip on the message.

The analysis that was done was solid as Gibraltar.  I always felt that the human factors will always make up for the captain points. The analysis indicated this.  A Tier 2 test would help because one does not have all of the gimmicks like RADAR at your disposal.  At that low Tier, you have to play using human factors only.  I was glad I asked what I though was a simple question.  It is not.  Lots to ponder here.

NJRoc

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6 minutes ago, njroc said:

A Tier 2 test would help because one does not have all of the gimmicks like RADAR at your disposal.  At that low Tier, you have to play using human factors only.  I was glad I asked what I though was a simple question.  It is not.  Lots to ponder here.

When an analysis results in more questions, that is not necessarily a bad thing :Smile_Default:

Edited by Kongo_Pride
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sir i would like to say 

1 hooraah! . i was taught to shoot buy some USMC guys back from south east asia in 72. 

2 thank you both for this test. it does point out that i will most likely never be really good at this game. i can get my damage and XP numbers to keep climbing but i can't get my WR to improve. i have tried all the suggestions with no joy. 

3 if this test were to keep going i would be happy to be the scrub for more info.  

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57 minutes ago, dbw86 said:

I want to thank Kongo Pride for his patience with me throughout this test.    I have consistently rated myself in this game as a below average to low average player.  (That may have been overly generous after this test I fear)   For most of the past year I've played this game several hours most days on an a new Apple iMac 27" and had all kinds of problems with freezing and having to force quit, then try to get back into the game before discovering I had ben sunk.   Finally this past December I ordered a PC with all the latest stuff in it for gaming with a 27" monitor and discovered tons of things I never before saw, or even knew were in the game.   On my Apple I ran absolutely lowest settings.   Now I see shrubs, tree's buildings and my ships show an unbelievable degree of detail, even some rivets and such.

I joined the Corps in 1959 serving 14 years making Gunny in 12 before getting out in 74.   After a 10 year break I joined for 8 more years  the Army NatGd as a 1stSgt before retiring in 92.  I also served 25 years as a Police Officer (1974-99) retiring as Commander/Director of a tri-county police and corrections academy.    One of the constant things I always harped on, and applied rigidly to myself,  was  the old "Dirty Harry" line - "A MAN OUGHT TO KNOW HIS OWN LIMITATIONS!"  

I honestly believe I've advanced my fleet to it's current 82 ship level, selling off a lot of the lower tiers, by carful and dedicated planning and research on every ship in the cruiser and battle ship lines of the various nations.   At the time of this test I only had one 19 point Capt (still do) and three  T10 Ships (Des Moines,  Worcester, & Hindenburg).    Since then I've added the Moskva, and am closing on a Henri IV.    I am 77 years old, take a number of medications daily for my heart and back which does negatively affect my physical abilities.    One of the medicines I take daily really negatively impacts my short term memory and causes me a great deal of frustration!     I am no longer able to memorize and input information to my brain and later recall it instantly as I used to be able to do.    Recently I  had cataract surgery and wear glasses for reading and  the computer.  So I offer no excuses for my poor play as my equipment is top notch, but obviously medicines and age are a larger impact that I realized until this test.    I simply am unable to rapidly process the massive amount of sensory intake of playing this game, sort, understand its importance and convert it to commands to my hands and fingers for them to execute in coordination with my sight.    

Perhaps one of the most frustrating of all things to me is my poor marksmanship with my ship's guns.   I've shot firearms since kindergarden and have always been a good shot.   In the military I was an Expert shot and later High Expert.   In police work I was not only a firearms instructor for revolvers, semi-auto pistols, rifles, shotguns, machine guns and even chemical launching weapons but was ultimately a Certified Range Master routinely shooting a qualifying score between 98 to 100.    My poor marksmanship skills in this game is humiliating and frustrating personal!    It also strongly contributes to my inability to capitalize on easy targets of opportunity consistently.    

But I play most days from 4 to as long as 10 hours and enjoy the game immensely, most of the players and my clan mates.  Playing with Kongo Pride I learned a great deal about the game and how it is played.    How much I will be able to translate into my own play remains to be seen, but I'm sure going to try!    WIN OR SINK!

This man deserves a medal.

For real. I salute you with my 4F self - I wish I was allowed to serve as you have. Thank you. 

 

As for your in-game performance - your mindset is absolutely great and I hope to team with you some day. I wish more were like you. 

Now, for your aiming:

59 minutes ago, dbw86 said:

My poor marksmanship skills in this game is humiliating and frustrating personal!

I have to ask, are you using the dynamic crosshair? 

I've got confidence that after some 1 on 1 "training" with Kongo, that perhaps you'll see that accuracy go up. I sure hope to see that be the case anyway.

 

Best of health, sir. 

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If balance was important, 0.8.0 would have never crept out the door. I am resigned to the dubious future of this game.

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11 hours ago, kgh52 said:

You sited the win rate but did you notice the trends charts, they were all climbing. This indicates the player is improving. There are other factor that effect the win rate unrelated to the player's skill.

Nope, I went with the bare WR, simply because it jumped out at me as being pretty low to count as mediocre.   Like I said, I don't mean it as labeling you as bad.

When I started WoT, my system was borderline potato, framerate would drop to 3-5fps... combining that with being inexperienced gave me terrible stats - it took a new system to show any improvement.  So,I realize that outside factors can handicap people.  It's great you play and enjoy it, kudos for improving, and kudos for helping out the experiment.

I'm lucky that, at 50, my reflexes and hand eye coordination are still sharp.  I played WoW for a long time, led a guild for 7 years.  One of my reasons for running a guild was giving people with heart,who were "bad", a guild where people, including me,did what we could to get people to the point where "outsiders" would play with, or even recruit, our "baddies" away...  We'd have taken you in a heartbeat, just based on attitude.

 

also, "WHERE"S MY HASSENPHEFFER?!?!!?"

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Very nice analysis.  As a former kin/clan/guild leader of many other games outside ship we have played around with many such things as to what makes one good at a game. As it turned out and as you seemed to have demonstrated all the grinds for additional little buffs made a small dent in closing skill gaps. Even within my own warships clan, who was kind enough to take me in, I have seen that even though I have matched ship, modules, flags, camo and captain skills most are far better than me .  Some of us are born to be fodder. However, the more I hang around and play with team mates the better I am getting.

So to sum up. Whoever is driving the keyboard makes up  a huge % of success and as proven across most gaming, perks are a reason to grind not artificially make you better. And hopefully in the grind itself you do get better.

Biggest impact none player related? Detonation flag !!! :-) Any skill level  can use that with success.

Thanks for the test. I'd like to see a t8 unicom versus t10 50% er BB will do as a test. Angles, choice of shell, when to repair, heal or aiming will stand out and reveal how much difference there is in this skill gap.

Note to all of us cannon fodder: div up, baby steps and keep the scale trending up :-)

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Quote

"WHERE"S MY HASSENPHEFFER?!?!!?"

The most important answered question 1st. Rabbits are out of season.

Quote

Nope, I went with the bare WR, simply because it jumped out at me as being pretty low to count as mediocre.   Like I said, I don't mean it as labeling you as bad.

I was tired & irritable when I replied. People do use win rate as the tell all stat to past judgment on others. That is a pet peeve of mind. You stated you went not labeling.

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I have to say as one of those Mediocre players with around 49% WR PR Rating around 900's I think this is a very good read. I admit that I'm crap but I'm learning and I would like to learn not to be such crap and aggressive all the time, or think out what I'm going to do in each game. I need to work on this and probably work on alot of things, is this a cry for help? Probably. 

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