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RobertViktor68

F-key-get-out-of-jail-free

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1 hour ago, X01_ISAAC_7 said:

IChanging the F-key mechanic is simply going to be seen as a nerf to the new CVs. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Nerfing the only way CV players have to be able to stay at combat strength with squadrons is just going to result in the predictable drop in new CV players once they realize that carriers are getting nerfed yet again because DD drivers don't know how to press the "P" key and turn off their damn AA guns.

 

1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Not just 'be seen as a nerf'...

It WILL be a nerf.

Don't get your panties in a twist too much.  AA adjustments are also coming.  WG bluntly states that the test server could not generate the needed data.  Now that data is coming in and coming in fast.  They'll be able to take that information and make adjustments that need to be made, to both CVs and to AA.

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

 

Don't get your panties in a twist too much.  AA adjustments are also coming.  WG bluntly states that the test server could not generate the needed data.  Now that data is coming in and coming in fast.  They'll be able to take that information and make adjustments that need to be made, to both CVs and to AA.

As pretty much a CV main, these are the changes I'd like to see:

1) Continuous AA always targets the weakest plane. Its role is to finish off / execute weakened planes, and assure planes are shot down if you linger in AA zones. This will mean ships get to see planes going down a little more reliably, while at the same time it will prevent squads discretely getting evenly softened up such that a single flak puff kills all the planes at the same time. The idea would be for the average planes shot down to not change that much, but be far more evenly distributed. The current all-or-nothing nature of AA is not satisfying for anyone. The strength / frequency of the puffs and / or plane regeneration rates may need to be adjusted some with planes more reliably being shot down, but I think the result will ultimately be smoother and more satisfying for all.

2) Planes returning to the carrier restoring like, 95%-ish of a plane rather than 100%. I think someone being reasonable careful with their planes would be able to keep a reasonable number of planes available at that restoration rate, but rapid-cycling squads would start to add up and quickly decrease your available planes. That restoration % can be adjusted up and down as necessary to adjust how quickly a CV can cycle squads without depleting their plane supply, but somewhere in the mid-high 90s seems like a good starting point.

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15 hours ago, X01_ISAAC_7 said:

 

Posting a WORK IN PROGRESS SHIP as evidence for the nerfing of the "Return to Carrier" mechanic (F-key making squadrons immune) is not only ignorant, it shows your complete lack of understanding of just how NOT infinite the "Unlimited Planes" mechanic is. It's been shown over and over by Flamu, Jingles, Stuntman, iChase, and Notser just how brokenly stupid powerful the Royal Navy carriers are at the moment. They make IJN look pitiful in comparison, and IJN is STILL the gold standard even AFTER 8.0. USN carriers have NEVER been good, save for the 2 months or so that they were top due to getting a second TB squadron back.

The fastest way to seem like you know nothing about the game is saying CVs have unlimited planes. 


 

Lost what thread this was from, but it was from a user named MattttChris. He did some rough math. And apparently no one else is paying attention to the fact that despite having "unlimited" planes, there is a finite amount of planes a carrier can have. The REGENERATION rate of planes is for 1 (ONE!) plane at a time for each of the given plane types (rocket, torp, bomb). Any one could do the math and figure out that the CV's planes aren't actually unlimited.

CVs have figured this out, and are using a tool that was given to them to be able to stay in the fight LONGER. Trying to force attacks through suicidal flak walls and losing entire squadrons is not only playing into the enemy team's hands, it's also downright stupid because you're also nerfing yourself. AA as it currently is, if there was NO immunity window, or a delayed immunity window, would result in CVs losing entire squadrons regardless of what they do and eventually being de-planed, leaving them RIGHT back where they were prior to 8.0 when they DID get de-planed.

I'm planning on making a video to cover this too, as quite a few Community Contributors don't seem to be covering this tidbit of information.

 

 

The fastest way to show you know nothing  about the game is to:

 

A) put words in my mouth

 

B) dismiss evidence because it doesn't suit your PoV.

 

I never said CV's have unlimited planes and if you'd actually played CV's you'd understand that ability to avoid flak isn't something the RN CV's are amazing at compared to everyone else. Their damage potential may be too high but the survivability of their aircraft vs flak if played properly is equivalent to every other CV out there right now. So how OP they are in damage dealing has no effect on how effective they are at surviving vs flak. Which makes it a more that adequate demonstration of my point that ichase is in now way the best flak dodger out there.

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On 2/1/2019 at 8:39 AM, MattttChris said:

The fastest way to seem like you know nothing about the game is saying CVs have unlimited planes. 

 

I did the math and Ill pass it on. 

 

The Midway used to have 116 planes

Currently with all the skills to have the most planes with fastest reload you can have

20 Attack planes on deck and over the course of 20min you can reload 20 for a total of 40 attack planes

19 torp planes on deck and over the course of 20min you can reload 13 for a total of 31 torp planes

20 DB planes on deck and over the course of 20min you can reload 17 for a total of 37 DB

 

Add that all up and you get 108 vs the previous 116. And torps do a ton less damage, map control with spotting has been removed, and generally AA has been buffed. 

 

Saying planes are "infinite" is the most ignorant thing you can say

I have extremely limited experience in game after the drop (I have watched friends and co-workers play dozens of matches tho). This is a serious inquiry.

Are the numbers you put up hard coded? I ran 3 matches in AA specced Iowa and bagged 11 planes total (2/3/6). In the first match was paired up with a clannie in his AA DM. First match he bagged 3.

Now...say you hit ships (or a tier) with poor AA and your squadron gets shot up but you dont lose planes. whats the turn around on them, and in essence if your planes dont get blapped, arent they unlimited?

Be gentle...trying to get a handle on this since Ive already pretty much bashed 8.0. Backwards, but hey...you never stop learning....

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16 hours ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

It's not an exploit.

S_O already said they are not happy with what people are doing.... Its an exploit. You are exploiting the return to ship mechanic. WG is going to kick out your crutch.

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Just now, Hanger_18 said:

S_O already said they are not happy with what people are doing.... Its an exploit. You are exploiting the return to ship mechanic. WG is going to kick out your crutch.

Then WG continues to be ignorant of their own game.

THEY setup the squadrons to only attack in portion while the whole squadron would be exposed to AA. THEY setup the DPS AA to hit random planes, thus making survivability of the squadron dependent on the number of planes available to spread the AA damage among. THEY refused to give CV captains simultaneous control of the hull and the squadrons, requiring a return to CV button.

What did they think was going to happen? We told them during PTS that this was going to be the meta and use of the button. They released it to live anyway.

I'd be okay if they made the climb to safety time longer. I would not be ok with anything more drastic than that without a commensurate buff to damage or a nerf to AA output.

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9 minutes ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Then WG continues to be ignorant of their own game.

THEY setup the squadrons to only attack in portion while the whole squadron would be exposed to AA. THEY setup the DPS AA to hit random planes, thus making survivability of the squadron dependent on the number of planes available to spread the AA damage among. THEY refused to give CV captains simultaneous control of the hull and the squadrons, requiring a return to CV button.

What did they think was going to happen? We told them during PTS that this was going to be the meta and use of the button. They released it to live anyway.

I'd be okay if they made the climb to safety time longer. I would not be ok with anything more drastic than that without a commensurate buff to damage or a nerf to AA output.

so basically you just want to bomb people with impunity. 

you know know this is an exploit, and you've used it as such, and pretended that it wasn't.

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5 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

so basically you just want to bomb people with impunity. 

you know know this is an exploit, and you've used it as such, and pretended that it wasn't.

Strawman.

I could counter with, "you just want to squadron wipe without skill"...

It isn't an exploit. WG hasn't defined it as an exploit. We aren't doing anything different than what real world pilots would have done.

Is it unintended by WG? Perhaps...though if it really was unintended they should have listened to the PTS feedback.

Will it be changed? Probably...but I bet it wont be removed...AND I bet that whatever change is made will still have unintended consequences...because WG is incompetent at game balancing.

Edited by Daniel_Allan_Clark
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Just now, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Strawman.

I could counter with, "you just want to squadron wipe"...

It isn't an exploit. WG hasn't defined it as an exploit. We aren't doing anything different than what real world pilots would have done.

Is it unintended by WG? Perhaps...though if it really was unintended they should have listened to the PTS feedback.

Will it be changed? Probably...but I bet it wont be removed...AND I bet that whatever change is made will still have unintended consequences...because WG is incompetent at game balancing.

its an exploit and you know it! otherwise you wouldnt have said that you told WG about it during testing.

the only thing i want is that when planes are damaged i actually have a chance to shoot them down rather than me eat damage for literally 0 cost because you pushed a button that completely removes any risk.

You are exploiting a mechanic in the game, you know you are doing this, and you justify it by saying "its in the game" to shift the blame away from yourself.

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2 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

its an exploit and you know it! otherwise you wouldnt have said that you told WG about it during testing.

the only thing i want is that when planes are damaged i actually have a chance to shoot them down rather than me eat damage for literally 0 cost because you pushed a button that completely removes any risk.

You are exploiting a mechanic in the game, you know you are doing this, and you justify it by saying "its in the game" to shift the blame away from yourself.

Your logic here is weird. We raised it to WG as a 'this is a direct consequence of your design choice', is this what you want? WG didnt respond...which to me means they did want it.

Pushing f-recall doesnt remove ALL risk, the planes still have to climb to altitude which takes time. In my opinion, lengthening this time makes sense.

What is the goal of shooting down planes? You want to prevent attacks on you...right? Forcing the CV to recall his planes prevents him from circling round and attacking again. You have achieved your goal. What do you need plane kills for?

AA is not designed to shoot planes down, it is designed to make attacks prohibitively expensive...so they either deter an attack from occurring at all, or limit the number of attacks. Expecting that CVs should just ignore this risk reward calculation and drive their planes into your AA like braindead moths to a flame is an attempt to impose an unhealthy meta on the game. You aren't 'due' plane kills just because your AA is excellent.

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17 hours ago, Vaffu said:

I play my DM a lot and even with a full AA build I only ever manage to shoot down about 6 planes. Out of probably 20 matches I had one where I shot down 50, one where I shot down 14 and the rest were only 6 or less, sometimes zero. 

AA definitely needs a buff.

On the one you shot down 50 what CV was it, I am going to bet a T8.

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1 hour ago, Daniel_Allan_Clark said:

Your logic here is weird. We raised it to WG as a 'this is a direct consequence of your design choice', is this what you want? WG didnt respond...which to me means they did want it.

Pushing f-recall doesnt remove ALL risk, the planes still have to climb to altitude which takes time. In my opinion, lengthening this time makes sense.

What is the goal of shooting down planes? You want to prevent attacks on you...right? Forcing the CV to recall his planes prevents him from circling round and attacking again. You have achieved your goal. What do you need plane kills for?

AA is not designed to shoot planes down, it is designed to make attacks prohibitively expensive...so they either deter an attack from occurring at all, or limit the number of attacks. Expecting that CVs should just ignore this risk reward calculation and drive their planes into your AA like braindead moths to a flame is an attempt to impose an unhealthy meta on the game. You aren't 'due' plane kills just because your AA is excellent.

but it isnt if you leave this exploit in...as it re removes the cost because the planes just leave before they can be shot down. 

 

you know 100% this is screwed up, but here you are leaning on this crutch trying to justify it.

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Tier X carrier matches, with two carriers per team - the plane spam is bonkers.  Reminds me of the plane spam playing PT boats in War Thunder.  Worse than anything I've seen before in this game, surely.  Absolutely ridiculous.

I'm really not sure what to think about this rework.  Now that the newness is starting to wear off, I'm not sure I'm such a fan of it.  And I'm usually supportive of new updates.

Edited by Kuckoo

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37 minutes ago, Hanger_18 said:

but it isnt if you leave this exploit in...as it re removes the cost because the planes just leave before they can be shot down. 

 

you know 100% this is screwed up, but here you are leaning on this crutch trying to justify it.

Actually, I'm in favor of increasing the time it takes for the planes to reach altitude.

But go on, hate other players.

We aren't the enemy in this situation...developers who ignore knowledgeable feedback and knowingly release broken game modes...those are your enemy.

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1 hour ago, Hanger_18 said:

but it isnt if you leave this exploit in...as it re removes the cost because the planes just leave before they can be shot down. 

 

you know 100% this is screwed up, but here you are leaning on this crutch trying to justify it.

Why do you think the planes are bailing? It's because your AA successfully damaged and scared them off, thus preventing subsequent attack runs from that squad. On some ships, a single attack run is all that's remotely safe or possible, as the AA is so strong that the squad will be wiped before you can execute a second attack run.

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6 hours ago, BBsquid said:

I have extremely limited experience in game after the drop (I have watched friends and co-workers play dozens of matches tho). This is a serious inquiry.

Are the numbers you put up hard coded? I ran 3 matches in AA specced Iowa and bagged 11 planes total (2/3/6). In the first match was paired up with a clannie in his AA DM. First match he bagged 3.

Now...say you hit ships (or a tier) with poor AA and your squadron gets shot up but you dont lose planes. whats the turn around on them, and in essence if your planes dont get blapped, arent they unlimited?

Be gentle...trying to get a handle on this since Ive already pretty much bashed 8.0. Backwards, but hey...you never stop learning....

So I'll be honest with you. Your question was a little hard for me to understand.

 

However I'll do my best. 

My numbers are the absolute maximum number of planes a Midway can have in a match lasting 20 min long. 

A Midway can lose 108 planes total over the course of the match. 

 

If planes don't get shot down, they get reused. They aren't disposable planes. They only get replaced if they get shot down

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Got +90 Lexington games thus far (ptr included) and can say it's very much a strategy I use.

If cvs used planes until squad died they would only be able to launch 1.5 - 2 squads per plane type. If you were to prevent the use of the F key regularly, justifiably then cv planes should truly be infinite without respawn. AA was as much of a weapon as it was a deterrent, if it stops the attack, it did its job. This F key method forces cvs to sacrifice the full value of squad while increasing survival. Especially given that in my Lex, each torp only hits for 3-4k, when they do hit, it's only about the amount of damage as a normal teir 8-10 ship's salvo, why should I lose a full squadron of planes and have little else to rely on as a result when surface ships (especially CAs) can do this every several seconds?

 

Not saying using the F-key isnt completely problems, but if your going to hurt plane survivability, you have to increase their power, reduce aa's power further, or both.

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18 minutes ago, animals370 said:

Got +90 Lexington games thus far (ptr included) and can say it's very much a strategy I use.

If cvs used planes until squad died they would only be able to launch 1.5 - 2 squads per plane type. If you were to prevent the use of the F key regularly, justifiably then cv planes should truly be infinite without respawn. AA was as much of a weapon as it was a deterrent, if it stops the attack, it did its job. This F key method forces cvs to sacrifice the full value of squad while increasing survival. Especially given that in my Lex, each torp only hits for 3-4k, when they do hit, it's only about the amount of damage as a normal teir 8-10 ship's salvo, why should I lose a full squadron of planes and have little else to rely on as a result when surface ships (especially CAs) can do this every several seconds?

 

Not saying using the F-key isnt completely problems, but if your going to hurt plane survivability, you have to increase their power, reduce aa's power further, or both.

Exactly. People keep thinking CVs that aren't tier 10 can hurt them as bad as the RTS carriers, which isn't true.

As a New Mexico, I literally ignore CV planes. They cant hurt me enough to bother with AA sectors or even dodging.

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2 hours ago, GrimmeReaper said:

On the one you shot down 50 what CV was it, I am going to bet a T8.

It was a 2 cv game one was a T10 and one was T8 so no idea the proportions of which type.

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35 minutes ago, MattttChris said:

So I'll be honest with you. Your question was a little hard for me to understand.

 

However I'll do my best. 

My numbers are the absolute maximum number of planes a Midway can have in a match lasting 20 min long. 

A Midway can lose 108 planes total over the course of the match. 

 

If planes don't get shot down, they get reused. They aren't disposable planes. They only get replaced if they get shot down

Ill be honest with you: After I re-read it, my question was a little hard for me to understand 😉 Thanks for the quick response and taking the time to deciper this. Long grave shift, little sleep, and no coffee. 

Okay...so 108 total. Now if a squadron has damaged planes, do they need to repair--and hence are unavailable for xx minutes-- before launching again, or are they just sent back out?

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4 hours ago, Hanger_18 said:

S_O already said they are not happy with what people are doing.... Its an exploit. You are exploiting the return to ship mechanic. WG is going to kick out your crutch.

Complete bollocks. Tell him come here and debate it. I'd love to see him explain how he wants to reduce the gap in skill disparity while every new cv player is going to have surpise AA blow their squad out of the air with no means to abort an attack. While he does that he can rehash how the trade off for one squad and no detection on the way back, that they stated intended, is suddenly an exploit.

Sound more like he wants to backtrack and appease if anything, but I'm all ears.

As for them not knowing how it would be used, yeah F'n right.

 

Edited by _Caliph_
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6 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

Ill be honest with you: After I re-read it, my question was a little hard for me to understand 😉 Thanks for the quick response and taking the time to deciper this. Long grave shift, little sleep, and no coffee. 

Okay...so 108 total. Now if a squadron has damaged planes, do they need to repair--and hence are unavailable for xx minutes-- before launching again, or are they just sent back out?

No. If you have a plane that is held together by tape, but it gets to the deck. It can immediately launch again, no delay

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4 minutes ago, MattttChris said:

No. If you have a plane that is held together by tape, but it gets to the deck. It can immediately launch again, no delay

Okay. Again thanks for the quick reply.

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5 minutes ago, BBsquid said:

Okay. Again thanks for the quick reply.

No problem man, let me know if you have any other questions

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