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SJ_Sailer

What is effect on the "Ecology" if DD's go away?

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9 minutes ago, So_lt_Goes said:

Obviously, we will just have to wait two years for a DD Rework. :Smile_teethhappy:

That's some DARK humour!

 

:Smile_teethhappy:

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37 minutes ago, Kongo_Pride said:

Agree to disagree.  Planes can do many things similar to DDs, but not all of them.  They can spot, they can contest, they can cause area denial, they can project a point of attack, but they cannot cap objectives and they cannot provide concealment to allied ships and this is where my disagreement rises.

Otherwise, solid points.

Allow me to add my thoughts.  Your point about smoke is a good one.  The problem is you aren't going to attract players with a play style that is heavily support.  Hey DD get over here and give me your smoke.  Not a fun role.  Also, WG mentioned they are looking into making the removed odd tier CVs into more of a support role, maybe allowing them to land planes in the to cap, smoke friendly ships (and I have no doubt they've thought about giving planes radar).  If these things happen DDs will have little place in the game.  That is a concern.  I don't know if thses things will ever happen, but it was something mentioned by WG.  

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54 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Just thinking if DD's go away, what happens...

BB's have no predators and their population grows...

DDs are not the only counter to BBs.

54 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Cruisers have no food supply and their predators grow, thus their populations dwindles...

Most crusiers are best at killing other crusiers and BB than they are at killing DDs.

54 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Are we left with a BB vs CV only environment?

No. Supposing that CVs will become popular again, and we see them every single battle. Ships with strong AA (both BBs and cruisers) and good range are going to become very popular and strong. Ships that rely on concealment, have poor AA or poor range are going to strugle a lot. DDs in general are going to take a huge hit, with most becoming pretty bad ships. 

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49 minutes ago, Prothall said:

 

We play here to have fun. Right now it is pure hell for DDs. Why would we punish ourselves to provide data?

 

 

Lack of DDs playing is data, so don’t play DDs if you want them to fix DD-CV dynamics and WG will instantly know there is a problem for they only worship data instead of forum posts 

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31 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

All good discussions, but back to the point...IF DD's went away, what effect would it have on the WOWS habitat?

Then WG would start working on a DD rework 

lol. 

In the meantime capping in force would be come a thing, and RN Cruisers would become the new DD's

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Cruisers eat bb for food, so the more bb the better. It is awkward playing in a meta where no one can really cap unless they are in a glob, and even after they cap, they stay as a glob and get stuck

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2 minutes ago, mixmkz said:

Cruisers eat bb for food, so the more bb the better. It is awkward playing in a meta where no one can really cap unless they are in a glob, and even after they cap, they stay as a glob and get stuck

I must be playing Cruisers wrong then.  I can't do any damage other than fires to a BB and they can one shot kill my Nuremberg dead from full health.

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8 minutes ago, paradat said:

Then WG would start working on a DD rework 

lol. 

In the meantime capping in force would be come a thing, and RN Cruisers would become the new DD's

I do think RN cruisers are about to get more popular. They have better aa and heals, will be the ones to contest caps. DDs don't have a role to fill anymore, or maybe better said as the DD tasks are now better filled by other ships. 

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33 minutes ago, S16_Hunter said:

I think if DD's went away, you'd end up with a more "campy" meta then you already have with BB's and Cruisers.  CV's would become ineffective I think because the BB's and Cruisers would most likely develop a more mutual AA bubble..  Heck one screen shot I saw showed that over 100 some planes downed in one game, saw someone post they got 130 alone in one game in a Khab?  awesome stat, but if I was a CV driver and every time I took my ship out I lost 150 planes..  I'd find something else to play that can't be any fun.

So no DD's = Camp fest and at some point only BB's and Cruisers.  = BORING..

All conjecture as I really don't think DD's will go away, sure diminished use for a while, just like after Radar changes, but eventually when the CV thing dies down folks will start playing them again.

to expand on this:  OP: DD's won't go away..........  even with no logical reason to play them, there will always be players whom will;.......because, they can't stand sitting still or hiding.  Even, if that means losing every match and getting almost nothing for "sort-of-participating"....as a easy target for everyone to shoot.  

I haven't been able to even load 8.0......technically, there is something massively wrong with 8.0 and my computer?  But, even if I had, as a DD main all I would be doing now is:  80% trying not to be detected and literally doing nothing but running from place to place; 10% of the time being a moving, free experience point sink for everyone else; 5% of the time fighting off more aircraft than we ever seen; and, 5% of the time actually shooting torpedoes at maximum range cause now, aircraft spot everything and............when that is bad enough, there is still radar that catches the rest....  So, 5% of the time actually playing the game.............  No.  Only 5% of the DD population will end up playing DD's..........unless this meta and the radar meta get turned around.........which, can't happen because our hosts want an Arcade FFA game with high game turn-over......which, sells more and creates greater revenue....  The era of WW2-esk LOS warfare; explicit roles based on ship type; tactics that make you think; and, ships that are balanced by the expectations of history, is now over.....welcome to the new reality !

I might get this game re-loaded in a few weeks but, I'm not looking forward to it because I drive an awful lot of DD's.....

Edited by Asym_KS

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I think the lighter (and more pertinently stealthier) end of the cruiser spectrum will see an uptick.

Without destroyers, they have the best chance of capping and the survivability to deal with air attack. Some of them even come with smoke already.

 

I don't believe BB numbers will change all that much, DD can constrain their movements, and usually a BB doesn't want to roll into a cap with a DD in it, but given torpedo boats like Shimakaze do on average about 45,000 damage, and T10 battleships have on average about 90,000 HP plus repairs clearly DD aren't 'culling' them in any meaningful way overall. DD's doing about 0.5 battleships worth of damage continues across most tiers, with a few exceptions.

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28 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

I do think RN cruisers are about to get more popular. They have better aa and heals, will be the ones to contest caps. DDs don't have a role to fill anymore, or maybe better said as the DD tasks are now better filled by other ships. 

CV can not spot you in smoke. So DD's still are the cap kings but they are going to have to evaluate the best time to do it. Rushing smoking up getting radared and then then shot and attacked by the CV is an issue. Also rushing the cap and being in the open and alone in the early game is also begging for a Stike from the CV,.

Now if the DD meanders to the cap and waits on it's CA support then it is the CV who is going to get a nasty surprise. 

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3 minutes ago, paradat said:

CV can not spot you in smoke. So DD's still are the cap kings but they are going to have to evaluate the best time to do it. Rushing smoking up getting radared and then then shot and attacked by the CV is an issue. Also rushing the cap and being in the open and alone in the early game is also begging for a Stike from the CV,.

Now if the DD meanders to the cap and waits on it's CA support then it is the CV who is going to get a nasty surprise. 

CVs can blind fire the cap. Sitting in smoke is a good way to catch waves of torpedo bombers. Or shotgunning rockets which are devastating to DDs

And the DDs who have hydro, RN and KM, have short smoke

Its a pickle

 

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Like I said in another thread, I'll still play my DDs, but will never play them aggressively again.  If there are CVs in play, I won't try for early caps or spotting until much later in the battle.  If the rest of the team wants to report me, power to 'em.

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59 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

I must be playing Cruisers wrong then.  I can't do any damage other than fires to a BB and they can one shot kill my Nuremberg dead from full health.

Yeah, once you get to the higher tiers, cruisers get more powerful... you can match the range of bb, have higher dpm, and much more maneuverable. Once you get the hang of cruiser play, you can really bully them around.

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2 hours ago, jager_geist said:

Then the game will be loaded with the Battleships and Cruisers that have the best AA, spec'd with AA focus, killing off the CVs planes to where no one wants to play CVs.

Interesting point here.  WG has painted themselves in a corner. Any new premium which doesn't have solid AA may just sit on the shelves.  I certainly wouldn't buy a new ship with crappy AA.  For me to spend any bucks, it would have to have VERY strong AA.

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DDs will stay and WG will tweak the balance a bit.  They don't want DDs to completely vanish since that would create a glut for the battleships.

I mean...everybody thought that radar was going to be the death of the destroyer, but that didn't happen.  Destroyers just adapted and moved on.

When I play a game, I still prioritize destroyers because they're way more dangerous than cruisers and battleships.  Those torps and small frame can enable them to play havoc with the lumbering, big-gun oafs.

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38 minutes ago, mixmkz said:

Yeah, once you get to the higher tiers, cruisers get more powerful... you can match the range of bb, have higher dpm, and much more maneuverable. Once you get the hang of cruiser play, you can really bully them around.

Glad to hear that.  With the rework I was planning on focusing on my Nurenberg to take it to Hindenburg at T10.  Looking at the fine print however the guns seem to be the same from T7 to T10.  I really did not see that much difference looking a the WG site.  It looked like only minor improvements from Yorck to Hindenburg.  I am giving DD's a break so I am planning to spend some time in Fiji and Helena also but the German is the one I want to take to T10.

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Yorck

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3 hours ago, KaptainKaybe said:

I'd like to think DD mains will keep playing DDs so that Wargaming can gather data and do some additional balance passes as needed. But maybe I'm just being an optimist.

I am playing my sole T9 DD in ranked.  Staying away from randoms.  It is to jacked up right now.  Not enjoying this patch thus far.

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3 hours ago, Kongo_Pride said:

Agree to disagree.  Planes can do many things similar to DDs, but not all of them.  They can spot, they can contest, they can cause area denial, they can project a point of attack, but they cannot cap objectives and they cannot provide concealment to allied ships and this is where my disagreement rises.

Otherwise, solid points.

Any ship can cap. The only thing that limits other ships from capping is being focused, but since CVs are spotting the entire rear line behind cap anyway, if they have good AA and are good at shot placement it kind of doesn't matter if they would theoretically get spotted by a DD first.

> concealment

Which only applies if there aren't planes capable of spotting around the smoke or in range to pick up the gun bloom in smoke.

Plus tying the entire utility of a class to a finite, single digit consumable is just plain dumb. Even AA or radar ships AREN'T just a floating barge for AA or radar.

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10 minutes ago, Big_Pimpin said:

I am playing my sole T9 DD in ranked.  Staying away from randoms.  It is to jacked up right now.  Not enjoying this patch thus far.

Come back don't leave I'm just starting to play CVs for the first time 

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3 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Just thinking if DD's go away, what happens...

BB's have no predators and their population grows...

Cruisers have no food supply and their predators grow, thus their populations dwindles...

Are we left with a BB vs CV only environment?

We're left with players in big ships wishing they had some DD to go out there and spot so they have stuff to shoot at from max range. No one to spam in chat to do all the stuff they don't want to do because they'll have to leave their rock or venture out of their 5km AA bubble with everyone else.

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33 minutes ago, SJ_Sailer said:

I am giving DD's a break so I am planning to spend some time in Fiji and Helena also but the German is the one I want to take to T10.

Fiji can be a beast.. and it does pretty good with up being up tiered. Wish It had slightly longer reach with it's main guns but still a great ship. Helena is squishy, but dangerous.  fun to play.   Germans. I'm at the Roon right now and it's to me "good" nothing super special but great jack of all trades kind of boat.  Loved the hipper actually.  That grind is not horrible but some folks will say the Hipper is terrible, I don't think so.

Should not be to long till the Hindy is in port.. :)

 

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3 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Are we left with a BB vs CV only environment?

Without AA support, BBs will fall to CVs.   Even the best USN BBs can fight over 2 CVs working together for long.

 

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2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

I haven't been able to even load 8.0......technically, there is something massively wrong with 8.0 and my computer?

Me too... can't get this update to work. Downloaded it twice thus far, and twice it's failed during the install process. Corrupt files by the looks of it. Takes me about 12 hours to download 18gb. Wish they would give me the Hash ID values for these files, so I could determine which torrent file I really need. Instead of having to download all of them over and over again.

Edited by Hydra_360ci

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4 hours ago, SJ_Sailer said:

Just thinking if DD's go away, what happens...

BB's have no predators and their population grows...

Cruisers have no food supply and their predators grow, thus their populations dwindles...

Are we left with a BB vs CV only environment?

Without DDs, the culture in the petri-dish grows exponentially … and you have a huge mess in the laboratory 

But, I don't think most players will miss them until they're gone … like the wolves in Yellowstone 

 

The current ratio in most games seems to be 2 CV / 1 DD :)

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