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KaptainKaybe

Guys, you NEED to play all surface ships if Wargaming is to balance anything!

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1 minute ago, NATOMarksman said:

We already defined the issue.

DDs contest caps, spot/DD fight, and torp ships.

They can't contest or torp because they're constantly spotted by planes, and the planes spot everything the DD would.

There used to be a hard counter to planes, in that you could stay in a friendly AA bubble that could effectively screen you from planes, and the enemy CV could eventually be reduced to priority strikes only (i.e not risking DD spotting) or deplaned entirely.

That doesn't happen anymore.

> but now they have to choose between doing dmg and spotting

If alpha is already nerfed, this isn't actually a major limitation. If anything it amplifies it by removing the primary thing that would cause you to spot less (risk to planes) 

You just fly around spotting until you see a weak spot and then immediately exploit it. Same as before. You're just procing DOT instead of alpha.

> but WG needs data

WG should already knows the solution is to hard cap plane spotting range to 1.7 km, on EVERY ship type, with no spotting from AA bloom. 

If the CV's role is now straight damage farming with very limited ability to stop enemy planes, it needs to lose utility.

It no longer needs spotting because it does not make the tradeoff in plane losses. It should rely on surface to spot or risk losing planes to unseen AA.

This allows DDs to actually do their job, while not impacting CV performance in a meaningful way.

Hard capping plane spotting by itself won't work. Put RDF on the commander and your planes can find any ship

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5 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Staying with what they had risked ongoing complaints from anti-CV people who complained that CV players could do too much to too many people at once, too efficiently. 

Honestly, at the moment what I would do is probably remove the rocket planes. At least the torpedo bombers give you nothing in the way of a lead indicator; RTS torp bombers using autodrop would track the DD for you. My torpedo hit rate on destroyers at tiers 4 and 5 was disgustingly high in co-op, much more than for CL or DD-launched torps. I never played much in randoms because of all the incessant screaming that people used to do whenever their own CV driver was anything less than super-unicum. Nobody wanted the newb on their team, so I almost never dared to try. Now everyone is a newb, at least for a short while.

That or get rid of RL.  It makes it too easy to eliminate the greatest threat to the CV.

The other choice DDs have is to stay within the AA Bubble of allies.

I believe that is called camping.

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I have limited free time and have premium. I didn't vote to be a beta tester for WG on my own time and my own dime. 

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7 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's true enough. What they should probably do is incrementally adjust things, (and quickly, I'd like to see minor hotfixes every couple of days or so) combined with a little patience from players, at least to get us in the ballpark.

And it's one thing to stop playing, and adopt a "wait and see" approach, but to just quit and uninstall within the first couple days of a major update?

 

True.  If the CV rework is seriously depressing DD numbers, WG needs to change that.

Too soon for a rage quit.

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Pretty sure the DD population halving and staying 1/2 would be quite a lot of evidence by itself.

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1 minute ago, Wombatmetal said:

Hard capping plane spotting by itself won't work. Put RDF on the commander and your planes can find any ship

And you are totally correct. My apologies for forgetting about that.

It should just not work on CV. It didn't before and there's no valid reason for it to now, on the PLANES of all things.

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You need planes to be able to spot surface ships at decent ranges. I do agree that the range on DDs in particular needs to be dropped a little, like to around 2.0 or 2.5km. 1.8 Doesn't work since that's lower than the auto spotting range.

Note: In unicum competitive games, CVs ONLY spot since the top players know how to not only equip their ships, but also know how to stay grouped up for mutual AA protection. So removing a CVs ability to spot completely (as opposed to just adding some conditions) would utterly kill that class for anything other than Random Battles. And even then.

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1 hour ago, Skpstr said:

I agree, but what is that "something", and how do we quantify it without more detailed data?

I mean, sure, we have players complaining that their DDs are permaspotted and can't do anything. Are they overexaggerating? Underexaggerating? Are they spot on? 

WG can listen to "feels", and try to  make shot-in-the-dark changes based on that, (because it's never going back to the way it was) or they can look at data and say, "hey, ok, DDs are being spotted 35% more than usual. We already had a clue that it was a problem from the complaints, now we have an idea how much we need to tone things down".

I don't want to be rude, but if after patch 8.0 dropped nobody played DDs what do you think was wrong? :Smile_amazed:

 

Edit: And I'm sorry, they have had 2 years plus to look at stats and see why DDs are getting killed more than other ships. Tell you what, if they even 2 years of stats up before adding 8.0,then I'll play 8.0! But don't try and shovel the same 'play it, they will see and change things' crap - because they haven't done it in 2+ years! lol.

Edited by _WaveRider_

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9 minutes ago, DrHolmes52 said:

That or get rid of RL.

Agree. This was a mistake, and it needs to be undone.

RL/RPF couldn't be fitted to carriers before because if every squadron that was up had it, it could make triangulation stupidly easy. And if it was bound to the ship, the data it gave would be more or less meaningless with the entire remaining friendly fleet in front of it and already spotting/engaging.

Now, however, with the RPF on the planes, and with the player having direct control and a pilot's eye view, it's grossly overpowered. Yes, you only have a bearing and no cross-correlation... but your planes are so much faster than anything else that running down the bearing and finding the thing it's detecting is no trouble at all and takes an insignificant amount of time.  @Pigeon_of_War, please pass this up through the appropriate channels.

(ETA: I'm not sure I see a problem with it being bound to the carrier; it might give a CV driver warning of an incoming stealthy destroyer so they can vector an attack out. But they have to actually be on the carrier, with no aircraft up except summoned fighters, in order to use it. That or remove completely.)

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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3 hours ago, KnyxUDL said:

ahahaha

That is a very good joke.

Feel free to cite the last time a balance change was based on data.

I will wait.

this is one of the dumbest comments i have ever witnessed on this forum. The ignorance i have witnessed here will haunt my dreams until the end of my days.

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3 hours ago, KnyxUDL said:

ahahaha

That is a very good joke.

Feel free to cite the last time a balance change was based on data.

I will wait.

That was a direct citadel hit.

As  vids from certain prominent players have already demonstrated beyond question, no, the player base need not play every ship,  they need only encounter it to see the pure nonsense that has been this patch.

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Just now, KaptainKaybe said:

You need planes to be able to spot surface ships at decent ranges. I do agree that the range on DDs in particular needs to be dropped a little, like to around 2.0 or 2.5km. 1.8 Doesn't work since that's lower than the auto spotting range.

Note: In unicum competitive games, CVs ONLY spot since the top players know how to not only equip their ships, but also know how to stay grouped up for mutual AA protection. So removing a CVs ability to spot completely (as opposed to just adding some conditions) would utterly kill that class for anything other than Random Battles. And even then.

CVs USED to spot.

That was when it was "broken", remember? It's supposed to lose the utility of being able to both spot and drop.

Unless you just want a lower skill floor on "skycancer".

> doesn't work since that's under auto spot

But it IS below the threshold to trigger AA on a DD, which is 1.7.

Unless you wanted to spot with no counterplay from the DD?

> top players

The top players could deal with the "broken" RTS CVs specifically because grouping up (and bringing AA utility to a match) was ALWAYS how to counter CVs.

Average players are now learning this because now they have to.

> but CVs will be useless

No, they won't.

They'll do the same thing we CVs did before: wait for surface to hit with HE to break mounts, and let DDs screen what you're not looking at.

If you really want to scout, you can still do it. It will just actually have risk, like it did when you accidentally stumbled into wooster DFAA.

It's called CV counterplay. We need it.

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12 minutes ago, Vaffu said:

To be fair survivability has been increased by the AP changes imo.

Yes, as I stated in one of my posts - it only took them 2 years to address that issue.

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well for now you can just stick around at tier 2 and 3 if that helps any..I kno it wont but none the less its competition without cv's..and yes I do understand thats not the solution..as its really not a [edited] or a whine issue..its a game..and u either wanna help make them see(WG) or ytou dont..and one more thing..you can tell people by words or voice till ur blue in the face..my experience has always been you have to show them..and thats in whichever method you choose..but good luck to all and hope everybody figures it out..

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28 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's true enough. What they should probably do is incrementally adjust things, (and quickly, I'd like to see minor hotfixes every couple of days or so) combined with a little patience from players, at least to get us in the ballpark.

And it's one thing to stop playing, and adopt a "wait and see" approach, but to just quit and uninstall within the first couple days of a major update?

 

I have only seen a handful say they are stopping play, and that is their choice. But honestly in the 2+ years that DDs have been at the bottom of survivability what has WG done:

Added the new bloom mechanic, added more DDs to kill DDs, added more Hydro, added more radar, added RPF. This is to assist them in the role of going forward and scouting capping I assume??? :Smile_amazed:

Now they make a change that is not so bad for CAs, not so bad for BBs if they stay in support of their CAs - but DDs that are supposed to go forward and scout/cap.

 

Honestly, I don't actually think they are aware of what they are doing. I've stated we should wait a couple of months to see what happens (I think that is fair), but please don't expect me to play a ship that is a chore to play. That is taking the P!

 

No, I'll try out the challenge of the new CVs and have fun in my BBs, thank you. Not saying I'm not going to jump into a DD now and again, but 2+ years and I'm expected to adapt and overcome again. And I'm not actually joking now, I want to go off and play something else, before the day ends lol. :Smile_honoring:

Edited by _WaveRider_

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1 hour ago, Wombatmetal said:

Hard capping plane spotting by itself won't work. Put RDF on the commander and your planes can find any ship

Its not the finding its the spotting for the rest of the team. Planes show up and the whole team is suddenly spotted. DDs and Cruisers can be targetted and destroyed while no where near any surface ship. Nothing they can do about it either. You can't manage your concealment like you can vs surface units. 

I like what others have suggested that the CV planes can spot ships but they only appear on the minimap for everyone else unless the plane is within a certain range of the target. This would not apply to spotter planes (because they IRL actually have guys on board whose job it was to look out the window and report.) and they are always near a surface ship.

Edited by Sabot_100
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1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

Its not the finding its the spotting for the rest of the team. Planes show up and the whole team is suddenly spotted. DDs and Cruisers can be targetted and destroyed while no where near any surface ship. Nothing they can do about it either. You can't manage your concealment like you can vs surface units. 

I like what others have suggested that the CV planes can spot ships but they only appear on the minimap for everyone else if the plane is within a certain range of the target. This would not apply to spotter planes (because they IRL actually have guys on board whose job it was to look out the window and report.) and they are always near a surface ship.

I am skeptical of the minimap idea. I am of the opinion that players will get skilled at placing the reticule appropriately on the minimap and blapping anything that pops up.

They have gotten really good with this technique for smoke clouds. I give it a week before we're looking for another solution.

I think we need a rework and write off DDs until 2020

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The joke is stronk on this one.

 

This guy gets it on how to humor me...  lol

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15 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

CVs USED to spot.

That was when it was "broken", remember? It's supposed to lose the utility of being able to both spot and drop.

Actually, what was broken was their ability to spot *everywhere* on the map at once. Which this update fixed. For all the complaining people are doing now, spotting was much much worse previously whenever a carrier was in the match. It's just that they forget.. But those who played competitively in KOTS style tournaments where spotting is king will be able to tell the difference. Now whether or not even the single squad spotting is broken is up to debate. I'm leaning towards yes, but I also don't want to entirely remove the ability for CVs to spot since that means they'll be able to do anything at all in competitive.

Some middle ground needs to be found to enable both good CV *and* good surface ship play. Changing it so that air spotting acts like the new radar might be the way to go in my opinion, but perhaps other solutions are viable too.

Note: people saying that CVs were previously countered by other CVs also forget that a skilled CV player could completely deplane an opponent and then go totally ape on the enemy team in ways that they can no longer do now with the overall AA buff, single area spotting, and inability to cross drop torps.

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6 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

I am skeptical of the minimap idea. I am of the opinion that players will get skilled at placing the reticule appropriately on the minimap and blapping anything that pops up.

They have gotten really good with this technique for smoke clouds. I give it a week before we're looking for another solution.

I think we need a rework and write off DDs until 2020

Note: That is the solution they are using for radar.

Remind me ... have those radar changes gone live yet? I'm curious to know how this would have affected DD play.

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53 minutes ago, Wysong said:

The whole premise of this thread is that WG is playing fast and loose with balance, and needs the player base to continue beta testing a change that wasn't asked for.  

Which they told us they were going to do months ago.

If people were going to quit because of "WG playing fast and loose with balance, and relying on the player base to beta test", why didn't they do it when they were told so? Did they think WG was just kidding?

No, people quit because, while they were willing to be guinea pigs to a degree, they were upset with how "fast and loose" turned out when it arrived.

And maybe a change wasn't asked for by you personally, but it was asked for nonetheless.

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3 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Actually, what was broken was their ability to spot *everywhere* on the map at once. Which this update fixed. For all the complaining people are doing now, spotting was much much worse previously whenever a carrier was in the match. It's just that they forget.. But those who played competitively in KOTS style tournaments where spotting is king will be able to tell the difference. Now whether or not even the single squad spotting is broken is up to debate. I'm leaning towards yes, but I also don't want to entirely remove the ability for CVs to spot since that means they'll be able to do anything at all in competitive.

Some middle ground needs to be found to enable both good CV *and* good surface ship play. Changing it so that air spotting acts like the new radar might be the way to go in my opinion, but perhaps other solutions are viable too.

Note: people saying that CVs were previously countered by other CVs also forget that a skilled CV player could completely deplane an opponent and then go totally ape on the enemy team in ways that they can no longer do now with the overall AA buff, single area spotting, and inability to cross drop torps.

Nerfing CVs competitively comes with the territory of this rework. You can't remove hangar capacity, allow for constant DOT procs with no direct counterplay, AND keep spotting.

It's already going to be extremely dumb in comp to begin with.

> spotting was worse

Uh, no it wasn't.

Because cruisers specced for AA could deny you entire lanes, beyond which ships could maneuver, and if you were dumb about it you could easily lose your entire hangar in the first seven minutes, often barely seeing what fried them.

I'm talking strictly surface vs air, but yes, air to air also limited spotting. It"s not like CVs had free rein at non dummy levels of play.

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31 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

They can't contest or torp because they're constantly spotted by planes, and the planes spot everything the DD would....

Completely predictable outcome from the rework.  I'm positive WG saw this coming.

Quote

> but WG needs data

WG should already knows the solution is to hard cap plane spotting range to 1.7 km, on EVERY ship type, with no spotting from AA bloom. 

If the CV's role is now straight damage farming with very limited ability to stop enemy planes, it needs to lose utility.

It no longer needs spotting because it does not make the tradeoff in plane losses. It should rely on surface to spot or risk losing planes to unseen AA.

This allows DDs to actually do their job, while not impacting CV performance in a meaningful way.

So why didn't WG go with something like this?  Something li9ke this is the obvious solution and yet its not part of the rework.  Its tells me the radically increase in overall spotting from the rework is a purposeful design.  They are indifferent to the problem.  They will only yield enough to keep the players from rioting in the streets.

3 minutes ago, KaptainKaybe said:

Actually, what was broken was their ability to spot *everywhere* on the map at once. Which this update fixed. For all the complaining people are doing now, spotting was much much worse previously whenever a carrier was in the match. It's just that they forget..

Bull, no one has forgotten.  It wasn't a problem in 1 in 10 matches where you saw a CV.  Here's the flaw in your logic, there were no "DDs are unplayable" threads on Tuesday, the rework hits and the forum is flooded with them.  You see, the spotting in the old system is irreverent.  The radical increase in overall spotting in every match now is a real problem.  Also, it doesn't if CV were supposed to be in every match in the original design.  They weren't in the game is a meaningful way, so the game was balanced without them being a meaningful presence.  Now they are in every match, and the game is way out of balance for the ships that depend on concealment.  WG may move fast to tweak AA or CV damage, but there is no way they can completely rebalance the game with a few tweaks here and there.  It will be 6-12 months before things are even close to being sorted out. 

8 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

And maybe a change wasn't asked for by you personally, but it was asked for nonetheless.

DD players didn't ask to have their concealment removed at the choosing of CVs in every match.  People wanted CV to be balanced and fun to play and play against for everyone.  That isn't what we got.  

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36 minutes ago, Wombatmetal said:

I am skeptical of the minimap idea. I am of the opinion that players will get skilled at placing the reticule appropriately on the minimap and blapping anything that pops up.

They have gotten really good with this technique for smoke clouds. I give it a week before we're looking for another solution.

Correct, but it certainly makes that return fire less accurate and that target possibly less desirable. It makes it impossible to estimate speed for example. To some extent it is a compromise of the current system and not spotting for the team at all.

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14 minutes ago, NATOMarksman said:

Nerfing CVs competitively comes with the territory of this rework. You can't remove hangar capacity, allow for constant DOT procs with no direct counterplay, AND keep spotting.

It's already going to be extremely dumb in comp to begin with.

> spotting was worse

Uh, no it wasn't.

Because cruisers specced for AA could deny you entire lanes, beyond which ships could maneuver, and if you were dumb about it you could easily lose your entire hangar in the first seven minutes, often barely seeing what fried them.

I'm talking strictly surface vs air, but yes, air to air also limited spotting. It"s not like CVs had free rein at non dummy levels of play.

Cruiser specced for AA can do that now also. Defensive Fire is crazy scary for CV players right now. In fact, AA as a whole seems stronger than before because all AA damages as opposed to just being RNG on whether or not it can shoot down a plane. Ships with low AA previously were just meat for CVs.

9 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Bull, no one has forgotten.  It wasn't a problem in 1 in 10 matches where you saw a CV.  Here's the flaw in your logic, there were no "DDs are unplayable" threads on Tuesday, the rework hits and the forum is flooded with them.  You see, the spotting in the old system is irreverent.  The radical increase in overall spotting in every match now is a real problem.  Also, it doesn't if CV were supposed to be in every match in the original design.  They weren't in the game is a meaningful way, so the game was balanced without them being a meaningful presence.  Now they are in every match, and the game is way out of balance for the ships that depend on concealment.  WG may move fast to tweak AA or CV damage, but there is no way they can completely rebalance the game with a few tweaks here and there.  It will be 6-12 months before things are even close to being sorted out. 

DD players didn't ask to have their concealment removed at the choosing of CVs in every match.  People wanted CV to be balanced and fun to play and play against for everyone.  That isn't what we got.  

The only reason they didn't complain before is that they only saw carriers 10% of the time. So if MM put them into a match with a CV, they basically grit their teeth and trudged along confident that their next several matches wouldn't have any. That's why they didn't forum post. Now, CVs are in every single match.

Anyone who feels that CVs now are more powerful than they were before is being *intentionally* disingenuous. It's so damn obvious CVs are a shadow of their former self. People are just griping because they are everywhere now, and sometimes two or three in a match per side which is admittedly too much.

But every time I see people post comments like that planes are unlimited or that carriers can do stuff now they couldn't before (well, other than rocket attacks) are either ill informed or purposefully misleading. Carriers still have hangar limits. That limit being hangar size + number of planes than be refreshed in 20 minutes. You'll note that carriers like Lexington have *half* the base hangar capacity that they used to have, countered by being able to bring in an extra plane per type every 90 seconds or more., up to it's capacity.

Spotting likewise has been nerfed compared to what it used to be since 6 to 8 squadrons spread across the map clearly spot better than just a single one.

So yes, more balancing needs to be done. But it is tiring seeing people seemingly and intentionally lie about CV gameplay changes (or remain intentionally ignorant about the differences). Let's try and remain honest since we need that honesty to fix things. Cause you can't fix a lie.

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