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Ducky_shot

This CV rework is AWESOME for skilled players!! Why WG will NEVER EVER balance CV's

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The new CVs are super awesome!!! The possibility for skilled players to be even better is huge. The skill gap differential is still there and I think WG has even widened it for skilled players. 

Take @Pulicat for example. The guy is just able to kill it out there. He was a decent cv player before but thankfully the new CVs are allowing him to exploit the skill he has even more than he was able to before. Watching him play on stream made me realize just how much of a skill gap there is for skilled players to exploit now with the new CVs. And he's probably only scratching the surface right now. He's only averaging 203k damage in his Hakuryu after 18 battles. He can probably push that even further the more experience he geys as thankfully CVs cant run out of planes anymore and they don't have to worry about micromanaging countering the other CVs. 

I can't wait to dig into them more and see how much potential there is for me to get those insane damage numbers too. I'm definitely excited about the new carriers. I've only gotten one 300k game before, but watching the regularity that pulicat is reeling them off is insane. Its exciting to think about the possibilities that exist with the rework that didn't before!! 

This might end up being the best patch ever! 

 

OK now that we are done with the sarcasm/satire, I will post my realization from this morning that WG will never be able to balance aircraft carriers. I thought about putting a new thread, but there are too many threads already, so I'll post it here. 

I don't think that WG will ever be able to balance carriers. NEVER. EVER. EVER. And I'm not talking about their current form in game, it is about trying to have them included in this game in any form or  fashion. Here's why: 

Some players are better strategically and tactically minded, are able to process info faster, and have better hand eye coordination and are just plain better at the game than others because of it. That's just a plain fact. Doesn't mean they are better people, etc etc, we aren't getting into that.... but there are people that are just going to be better at playing this game than others, simple fact of life. 

Skilled players are able to take differences in mechanics and gameplay styles and exploit them to be better than the average player. The amount they are able to exploit them depends greatly on what it is. The more variety and complexity, the more those differences will be exploited. This is what makes  certain types of ships more powerful in the game. Destroyers with their stealth can have a large skill gap due to their concealment. BB's can be huge influencers to a player with good aim and good awareness, going to the spots where they will make the most impact and picking targets that will help their team the most. However, these skill gaps are not linear, they are exponential. The more variety and complexity that there is, the more potential there is for it to be exploited. 

And this is why I don't believe that WG can ever balance carriers:

The aircraft carrier is able to exert its influence on the map a lot faster than any type. A player in a CV is able to react and help their team where they are needed a lot faster than a battleship player. They might be equally skilled, but the CV player is able to do something about it a lot faster than a  battleship, cruiser or destroyer. I do not see any way that WG can limit that by having CV's in the game. 

WG wants CV's to be easier to play, fun to play, and accessible to all players without them being overpowered. So how does WG negate the their ability to influence the match anywhere on the map??? If surface ships complain because they feel helpless against carriers and WG nerfs CV's effectiveness against surface ships, then CV's feel helpless and no one will want to play them and they are pointless. If people complain that the skilled players are getting way too much damage and WG nerfs damage, that directly nerfs the damage for bad players and they are limited in their success even further and won't play them. If planes are unlimited, skilled players are able to use that to their advantage and  because they use their skill and get more damage per plane, they are able to increase their overall damage to huge numbers. If planes are limited, then bad players feel useless when they can't use those planes to their full potential and they run out.  

Any way you look at nerfing or buffing CV's in the current or previous format, nerfs may bring good players into line, but hurt bad players way too much, while any buff that brings bad players into line,  will help good players increase the skill gap even more. The way Carriers work in real life and in this game makes that an inevitability that cannot be escaped. Their ability to influence the game quickly anywhere on the map is way too much. (and while writing this, about the only thing I can see to bring CV's into line with the other types would be to give their planes a range to operate in from the carrier, forcing the carrier to move around the map more tactically) 

The more variety and complexity there is, the more opportunity there is for a skill gap to be exploited. WG will never make carriers fun for everyone while keeping them balanced for gameplay. Consider a  shooting competition. How much skill gap is there between a recon sniper and someone who has never touched a gun when shooting at a sheet of plywood at 10 feet?? Not a whole lot. How much skill gap would there be in a military breach and clear exercise? A LOT. Carriers are not a sheet of plywood 10 feet away, there is way more complexity and variety in the way they work for WG to ever balance them for good and bad players alike and make them work well with surface ships. The skill gaps exist on the other types of ships but not to the extent that it exists on carriers.

Edited by Ducky_shot
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I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. 

So, well done, I guess? 

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1 minute ago, Ducky_shot said:

The new CVs are super awesome!!! The possibility for skilled players to be even better is huge. The skill gap differential is still there and I think WG has even widened it for skilled players. 

Take @Pulicat for example. The guy is just able to kill it out there. He was a decent cv player before but thankfully the new CVs are allowing him to exploit the skill he has even more than he was able to before. Watching him play on stream made me realize just how much of a skill gap there is for skilled players to exploit now with the new CVs. And he's probably only scratching the surface right now. He's only averaging 203k damage in his Hakuryu after 18 battles. He can probably push that even further the more experience he geys as thankfully CVs cant run out of planes anymore and they don't have to worry about micromanaging countering the other CVs. 

I can't wait to dig into them more and see how much potential there is for me to get those insane damage numbers too. I'm definitely excited about the new carriers. I've only gotten one 300k game before, but watching the regularity that pulicat is reeling them off is insane. Its exciting to think about the possibilities that exist with the rework that didn't before!! 

This might end up being the best patch ever! 

is that stream still available? Twitch? I've played a handful of games and my skill set is steadily increasing. All for picking up new tricks quickly.

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skill players mean like sitting afk in base shooting down planes left and right like it was nothing?

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Well the newer TX CVs have already passed the old ones for average damage.

 image.jpeg.921ceb08228a7f4e6cc082ff82094a94.jpeg

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1 minute ago, MajorRenegade said:

skill players mean like sitting afk in base shooting down planes left and right like it was nothing?

You remember people used to sometimes accuse good cv players of leaving each other alone in the fighter war and collude to farm damage for each other? That's basically what WG has given us. "don't worry about the other cv and losing planes, just go get the damage!!" 

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8 minutes ago, Excuse_Maker said:

is that stream still available? Twitch? I've played a handful of games and my skill set is steadily increasing. All for picking up new tricks quickly.

Yep, go look him up on twitch. I think he saves the vids

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1 minute ago, Ducky_shot said:

You remember people used to sometimes accuse good cv players of leaving each other alone in the fighter war and collude to farm damage for each other? That's basically what WG has given us. "don't worry about the other cv and losing planes, just go get the damage!!" 

Exactly this. Some moron decided taking fighters out of the equation was a good idea. That leaves the carrier player with the only option of attacking ships instead of trying to counterplay the red carrier...  It is almost like the people who make the decisions on this crap don't play the same game. They are just clueless. 

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7 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Well the newer TX CVs have already passed the old ones for average damage.

Well, that makes sense...they're not doing all the map control and air defense they used to do.

There's some notes in another thread, probably on page 10 by now, where I asked a well-known CV God if he had the influence he used to have on a match.  He said no, he didn't.  He could still sink ships as well as he could before, and piss people off because he was in a CV, but, overall influence, definitely not.

Wasn't that one of the goals of the rework?

Edited by mavfin87

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5 minutes ago, Falls_USMC said:

I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. 

So, well done, I guess? 

He’s definately being sarcastic. He doesn’t play CVs much. I’ve watched Flamu’s testing of the Brit CVs, and while he admits their torp planes are too strong, it’s scary to see what a skilled player can do in a CV. You can’t one shot anymore, but still can cross drop and land 2-3 torp hits every 10-15s for 3/4 back to back attacks. If they don’t kill you out right you’ll definately flood to death. Looks like tons of fun.

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I had our CV players asking me in my Texas to go take out the opposing carriers in a match I played last night.  Now, if I had attempted that our side would have lost, but that's not the point.  In every other instance in the game, same class ships can counter each other, but now we have CVs that have no ability to counter their opposite number on the other team.  Honestly, this is a mess.

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5 minutes ago, mavfin87 said:

Well, that makes sense...they're not doing all the map control and air defense they used to do.

There's some notes in another thread, probably on page 10 by now, where I asked a well-known CV God if he had the influence he used to have on a match.  He said no, he didn't.  He could still sink ships as well as he could before, and piss people off because he was in a CV, but, overall influence, definitely not.

Wasn't that one of the goals of the rework?

For the top fraction of RTS CV players, their influence has gone down.

For the overwhelming majority of CV players, their influence has skyrocketed. 

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2 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

For the top fraction of RTS CV players, their influence has gone down.

For the overwhelming majority of CV players, their influence has skyrocketed. 

I'd say the influence has shifted away from map control and limiting the other cv to straight damage support. When you can reel off damage numbers like that, you're going to win more often than not. 

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I'm also loving the cv's, I've never dropped so many planes:cap_rambo::etc_hide_turtle:

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18 minutes ago, SavageTactical said:

He’s definately being sarcastic. He doesn’t play CVs much. I’ve watched Flamu’s testing of the Brit CVs, and while he admits their torp planes are too strong, it’s scary to see what a skilled player can do in a CV. You can’t one shot anymore, but still can cross drop and land 2-3 torp hits every 10-15s for 3/4 back to back attacks. If they don’t kill you out right you’ll definately flood to death. Looks like tons of fun.

Oh absolutely. Skilled players like being able to exploit things where we can, but it doesn't mean we think it's good or healthy for the game overall. 

The one game I watched pulicat, his damage was over 90k before he launched his second strike. Absolutely insane. 

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I can't seem to get more than 20-30k damage with a Lexington.   Everyone is so clustered together that my planes die in seconds if I even ATTEMPT an attack on anyone.

Don't WANT to play surface ships as I'm spending 90% of the game trying to get away from planes.

Really feeling like I don't wanna play anymore.

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1 minute ago, Zenn3k said:

I can't seem to get more than 20-30k damage with a Lexington.   Everyone is so clustered together that my planes die in seconds if I even ATTEMPT an attack on anyone.

Don't WANT to play surface ships as I'm spending 90% of the game trying to get away from planes.

Really feeling like I don't wanna play anymore.

The trick is to just hit the magic F key as soon as your planes take damage or would get wrecked by flak.

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1 hour ago, Ducky_shot said:

The new CVs are super awesome!!! The possibility for skilled players to be even better is huge. The skill gap differential is still there and I think WG has even widened it for skilled players. 

Take @Pulicat for example. The guy is just able to kill it out there. He was a decent cv player before but thankfully the new CVs are allowing him to exploit the skill he has even more than he was able to before. Watching him play on stream made me realize just how much of a skill gap there is for skilled players to exploit now with the new CVs. And he's probably only scratching the surface right now. He's only averaging 203k damage in his Hakuryu after 18 battles. He can probably push that even further the more experience he geys as thankfully CVs cant run out of planes anymore and they don't have to worry about micromanaging countering the other CVs. 

I can't wait to dig into them more and see how much potential there is for me to get those insane damage numbers too. I'm definitely excited about the new carriers. I've only gotten one 300k game before, but watching the regularity that pulicat is reeling them off is insane. Its exciting to think about the possibilities that exist with the rework that didn't before!! 

This might end up being the best patch ever! 

I understood the sarcasm but may I suggest you add (sarcasm off) or mention you are being like that? 

I could see how that could cause confusion in understanding your point. 

 

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9 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

The trick is to just hit the magic F key as soon as your planes take damage or would get wrecked by flak.

I'm actually doing that a lot, but it still takes awhile to get back up in the air and near a target, at least 1-2 minutes to find another target.    

Still doesn't change the fact everyone is so packed together I cannot even make an attack in most of my games.

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I played few game on new SV and understood this one not for me. I liked play at old version of CV. By me it was more funny and was more easy for play a lot things was automated. I  don't understand why WG try to merge WOWS and WOWP. With new gameplay they can just remove carriers make land airports on the map.  I was think best way was just remove alt attack possibilities for all fighters and just hold old gameplay.

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TTTRRRROOOOOOLLLLLL.  This post made me laugh even though yesterday my cruisers with full AA builds were getting their butts kicked with the new CV rework.  But I smell a CV nerf coming once WarGaming examines battle results post patch.

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Oh it is indeed a great patch for Cv, now the problem is that all the rest of the classes (you know 75% of all ship types) are just targets for the Carriers.

In all the matches i played so far, if i dared to take a BB out i would get permanent flooding because the CV player is targeting the squishy bits and dont tell me to turn and dodge them your a freaking BB, he has the time to make 2 pass by the time your rudder completely shifted. Only premium i have that is doing "ok" is the Massachusset.

 

Oh also Musashi and Krons are out of the store, well after this patch they will truly dispensary because they are completely defenseless (yeah defensive fire isnt great on the Krons).

 

If it stays like that i believe its time to move on because so far its not fun at all, playing the Germans i got used to this but now pretty much all nations are in the same situation.

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1 hour ago, mavfin87 said:

Well, that makes sense...they're not doing all the map control and air defense they used to do.

There's some notes in another thread, probably on page 10 by now, where I asked a well-known CV God if he had the influence he used to have on a match.  He said no, he didn't.  He could still sink ships as well as he could before, and piss people off because he was in a CV, but, overall influence, definitely not.

Wasn't that one of the goals of the rework?

Sure, one of the goals was to reduce the influence a single CV player had on the outcome of the match.  What the rework does is shift that influence to CVs as a whole instead of any one individual.  CVs now control the meta, the game is now completely being shaped around them.  WG wants CVs to make up ~16% of the game played and somehow WG thinks its okay for CVs to control the meta.  Good luck to WG sorting this mess out, and I won't be funding all the work its going to take to "fix" this.    

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shows us screen shot of this so called 300k dmg u did or you are a liar, its easy to say big numbers but balls to back it up with evidence

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