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Weapon_of_Proliferation

Kii is not an AA savior

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Just a PSA for the weekend:

Don't buy Kii thinking it can save you or even have much of an impact with its supposedly strong AA, it is quite ineffective at the moment.

Not trying to be salty, but I can't help to think the ship was re bundled at this moment for a reason, just be aware it is not as good at AA as it used to be.

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23 minutes ago, Weapon_of_Proliferation said:

Just a PSA for the weekend:

Don't buy Kii thinking it can save you or even have much of an impact with its supposedly strong AA, it is quite ineffective at the moment.

Not trying to be salty, but I can't help to think the ship was re bundled at this moment for a reason, just be aware it is not as good at AA as it used to be.

Seems to be a reoccurring them with formerly strong AA ships like Atlanta and Flint being reported as having largely ineffective AA now as well.

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    I have the feeling that long range AA is a much more situational killer now and its usually a product of several overlapping  bubbles when it actually gets good results. Mid range seems to be much more potent now from my experience. Again, I am not saying I like how it is or that it should not or could not be adjusted … just trying to help people out who are looking for a way to get more AA potency. The exceptions being Mino and Worcester long range 6in, it seems to work just fine, lol.

Edited by Alabamastan

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Plane can now actively dodge flak. With proper run I drop Ijn t8 stock torpedoes bomber on des moines and Worcester alone. So of course kii will not be a no flight zone. You need to group ship for that. No ship have that power anymore and the panic effect of AA consumable isn't there anymore. 

IMO little bugger like Kidd fully AA spec seem very efficient while beeing hard to hit with good smoke and able to heal back from rocket attack, if you are looking for something related to cv rework. 

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I’m not trying to be that guy but the way I have my Kii it’s fine AA and Secondary wise. In fact, probably better than fine. Torp Squadron came at me in a battle from one of the carriers (other enemy carrier was doing something else I guess) and my AA shredded the dodging planes before they could even lower enough for their attack run completely. This is without the sector fire selected as I hadn’t figured it out yet in the first day of the update. My flak bursts actually completely missed though so it was just the medium and small AA guns firing continuously. This was in open water away from any islands. However, my Cleaveland, while using Defensive Fire AA and sector increase didn’t even manage to down a single plane until after the attack run. Again, this was a single squadron that attacked me. The Cleaveland captain is AA specialized due to the old carrier cross drop crap which rarely happened in World War II.

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3 minutes ago, Valkyr_Aesir said:

I’m not trying to be that guy but the way I have my Kii it’s fine AA and Secondary wise. In fact, probably better than fine. Torp Squadron came at me in a battle from one of the carriers (other enemy carrier was doing something else I guess) and my AA shredded the dodging planes before they could even lower enough for their attack run completely. This is without the sector fire selected as I hadn’t figured it out yet in the first day of the update. My flak bursts actually completely missed though so it was just the medium and small AA guns firing continuously. This was in open water away from any islands. However, my Cleaveland, while using Defensive Fire AA and sector increase didn’t even manage to down a single plane until after the attack run. Again, this was a single squadron that attacked me. The Cleaveland captain is AA specialized due to the old carrier cross drop crap which rarely happened in World War II.

If the CV attacking you does not know how to dodge and drives straight in on you it will work fine, its once people know how to dodge the long range stuff that it gets interesting.

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Also, people need to understand the snowball effect of damage on planes now. Someone made a post on this last week, but you will almost never shoot down many planes on the first attack run because of the way they take damage. Planes have individual hp and this needs to be ablated like a ship. A full wave of fresh planes tends to distribute damage from the AA aura around to undamaged planes in the squadron so the first strike will usually get through, albeit with damage to its members.  The first waves will tend to look like they are getting through unscathed (although they are taking damage) then on the second or later waves planes don't have undamaged planes to distribute the damage to and they will start dropping like flies. 

This all changes if they hit a flak burst. Those will tend to put massive damage spikes in which can lead to losses even on the first strike. Last night I ran into an Atlanta that was behind an island (and I didn't see). It wipe out my entire strike from my Ranger. He was clearly heavily AA specced (that is very visible) and had his AA sector set correctly. A massive flak burst erupted in front of me that I couldn't avoid and 3/4 of my planes (which were nearly undamaged) just vaporized. The remainder had so much damage that they went down from the AA aura.  Later that same match a Flint did the same thing. So I know those ships can wipe out a Ranger strike on their own.

If the CV has specced to increase survivability on his planes (and almost all will) the AA aura alone from a single ship will not stop an initial strike and it isn't supposed to. It needs the help of the flak bursts to do that and (and frequently DFAA as well). A fully specced AA ship can chew up later waves due to cumulative damage from the first wave and fewer planes to spread the damage out. Flak bursts are avoidable to some degree especially if the defending ship doesn't spec into the abilities that increase the flak bursts. (Also, people  must rotate the sectors aggressively.)

They key takeaway I am trying to convey is that personally shooting down planes is not as important as it was before and it won't happen as easily as it did before because planes now take damage more like ships do. The key is stacking damage on the strike groups so that they can't redistribute damage to lesser-damaged planes and then someone on your side can kill them. Each plane killed dents the reserve of the carrier and that is what hinders them. The important number in the long run is the one that tells you how much damage you are doing to planes, not so much how many you've shot down.

Also, battleships are less effective AA platforms than cruiser are in the rework. This is even more so than it was before. This is because they don't have DFAA (except for Hood to my knowledge) and their sector switch time is very slow so they don't have much burst damage on planes unless the plane hits flak. That being said AA battleships are still in a better place than non-AA battleships.They generate more cumulative grind damage like I mentioned above. It looks like they aren't being effective because you don't see planes dropping, but like I said above, that grind damage on the planes is valuable to the team because it makes it easier for someone (who may not be you) to eventually shoot them down and eat into the reserves. If you are flying a CV and encounter a BB with good AA you know it and you usually will avoid it unless there isn't a better target. 

 

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20 minutes ago, Tzarevitch said:

*snips*

 

 Yeah when I commented about AA rework, I said that groups matter. Going solo even in an AA specialized ship won't protect you from the carrier. The AA specialized ships should be seen as force multiplier for the group's combined AA, not an ultimate weapon you can take alone against planes.

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34 minutes ago, Hurlbut said:

 Yeah when I commented about AA rework, I said that groups matter. Going solo even in an AA specialized ship won't protect you from the carrier. The AA specialized ships should be seen as force multiplier for the group's combined AA, not an ultimate weapon you can take alone against planes.

Exactly. I don't think a lot of people have really grasped it yet (understandably). It is a lot easier to see if you operate the new CVs. The numbers leap out at you (literally) if you are on that end.

Solo AA ships still do a lot of damage and they are massively valuable but because of the way damage works now they will rarely stop a  first strike on their own. They can hurt it and they can make later strikes impossible because of the damage to the first strike but they can rarely completely shoot down fresh planes. 

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I just saw this video that iChase put up. The subject is a little different but it illustrates what I was saying about how planes take damage. The followup strikes are where the AA damage is really telling. He's being forced to cancel followup strikes and return to the carrier because he took so much damage on the first strike that the remaining planes are too heavily damaged to make a second. He's countering that by only launching one strike and then recalling the surviving planes to minimize losses. That then forces him to position his carrier WAY far forward to not have really long stretches before he can get into the fight. He also eventually will have to rotate plane types to give the other types a chance to regenerate enough for a full strike.

The players in the AA ships don't see what is happening. I looks to them like they aren't having an effect, but they are. It just only shows to them in the form of damage to planes on that meter below the main damage meter rather than massive numbers of planes downed. I was having to do the same thing as iChase in my Ranger (although I wasn't going to position my CV that close like he did). I rarely could get a third strike off and quite often I couldn't even get a second. I also had stretches where I couldn't launch a full squadron of anything due to the losses and that was even after cancelling the second or third strike. 

What I am trying to say is it may look like ships like Kii aren't doing anything and people keep posting that xxx ship's AA isn't doing anything. They are, very much so, you just aren't seeing plane kills. It's showing in the damage column not the plane kills. It's forcing the CV player to cancel strikes and that costs him time. A normal game is what, 15 min or something I think? With respawn rates and travel times for planes that's a finite number of strikes that he can ever make and a finite number of planes he can ever have. The more he has to cancel strikes due to damage to save them and fly new planes in, or wait for replacements to respawn, the worse his numbers become. Every side needs their Kiis and North Carolinas to keep putting damage on those planes because it racks up. Heavy AA cruisers are by far the best, but heavy AA specced BBs like Kii count a lot as well. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

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8 hours ago, abyssofthetriffid said:

Yes and the texas has also been killed off it no longer works either..................

Actually, Texas' guarenteed AA damage is through the roof. You can kill a plane with it in about 3 seconds, assuming you hit all three seconds, and that's while ignoring sectors.

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I just want this F-forsaken ship just to complete my collection and be done with premium ships. Its the only one I'm missing from my IJN Collection, I could care less about Ashitaka. Seeing Kii on sale and knowing I can't buy her is killing me inside. 

Edited by CaptainKiwi_2016

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Wow, @Tzarevitch, that was very informative, and everything seems to make more sense now. I think your posts should be stickied or something, so more people can read them.

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17 hours ago, Tzarevitch said:

I just saw this video that iChase put up. The subject is a little different but it illustrates what I was saying about how planes take damage. The followup strikes are where the AA damage is really telling. He's being forced to cancel followup strikes and return to the carrier because he took so much damage on the first strike that the remaining planes are too heavily damaged to make a second. He's countering that by only launching one strike and then recalling the surviving planes to minimize losses. That then forces him to position his carrier WAY far forward to not have really long stretches before he can get into the fight. He also eventually will have to rotate plane types to give the other types a chance to regenerate enough for a full strike.

The players in the AA ships don't see what is happening. I looks to them like they aren't having an effect, but they are. It just only shows to them in the form of damage to planes on that meter below the main damage meter rather than massive numbers of planes downed. I was having to do the same thing as iChase in my Ranger (although I wasn't going to position my CV that close like he did). I rarely could get a third strike off and quite often I couldn't even get a second. I also had stretches where I couldn't launch a full squadron of anything due to the losses and that was even after cancelling the second or third strike. 

What I am trying to say is it may look like ships like Kii aren't doing anything and people keep posting that xxx ship's AA isn't doing anything. They are, very much so, you just aren't seeing plane kills. It's showing in the damage column not the plane kills. It's forcing the CV player to cancel strikes and that costs him time. A normal game is what, 15 min or something I think? With respawn rates and travel times for planes that's a finite number of strikes that he can ever make and a finite number of planes he can ever have. The more he has to cancel strikes due to damage to save them and fly new planes in, or wait for replacements to respawn, the worse his numbers become. Every side needs their Kiis and North Carolinas to keep putting damage on those planes because it racks up. Heavy AA cruisers are by far the best, but heavy AA specced BBs like Kii count a lot as well. 

 

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The damage on the planes is only important if the planes go down. Yes AA ships can still be hard to strike if they're grouped up, but when not grouped up that high AA damage flack is avoidable and you absolutely can get multiple strikes through AA heavy ships. Even if the CV does screw up and eat flack he can instantly disengage by recalling them and have a new wave out on your location in less than a minute's downtime. So really those big damage numbers on planes are either the sign of a bad CV player or slightly delaying the inevitable, you just don't know. 

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