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Gnomestroy

Change my view: The new priority sector AA system is better than the old point-and-click system

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I feel that at this point, it's too early for a verdict on the CV rework - the majority of carrier players are still learning to play with their new planes. While playing my Mahan and Aigle, numerous dive bombers or torpedo bombers attempted to attack me, which is just dumb. In the few instances where carriers were smart enough to actually use rocket planes, they missed about half of their attack runs because they attacked me from the bow or stern. That being said, in a couple of days, when new CV captains discover the "F" key, and the importance of not changing course in the middle of an attack run,  I expect the lives of DD captains are going to get even more difficult than it is now.

However, I feel it is early enough for me to come to a conclusion about the new sector AA system, and I have to say, it is an improvement. I'm not talking about the new flak mechanics/"balance" changes to AA bubbles , in fact I dislike the new flak, as it feels too inconsistent. This post is solely focused on the advantages of sector AA over the old system. 

IMO, the worst thing about the old point-and-click AA system is that there's zero skill involved. Any 8 year old can ctrl-click on the aircraft squadron. The skill ceiling for point-and-click AA is the exact same as the skill floor. And after you click on the squad and activate your Def AA, there's literally nothing else you can do to increase the efficiency of your AA. Sure, you can turn into torpedo bombers to mitigate damage, but that's not killing planes.

Why is this a problem, you might ask? In the old AA system, a 40% winrate potato with an AA build will shoot down more planes than a 70% unicum not using an AA build, over the course of a single attack run. Of course, over the course of the entire match, the unicum will most likely shoot down more planes, due to surviving longer into the match, and taking less damage from bombing runs. But the fact that skill has no effect on AA is still a problem for pre-rework CVs.

Now, the AA mechanic still doesn't require significant amounts of skill. At first glance, there doesn't seem to be much to it besides selecting sector and turning the ship. But upon close examination, the new sector AA has a far higher skill ceiling than the old system. An experienced player who swaps the sector at exactly the right moment will inflict significantly higher damage than a novice who swaps 5 seconds too slowly. Swapping sectors at the right moment requires good prediction skills, situational awareness, as well as lots of experience.

There's also a risk-reward gamble at play; exposing your broadside to the incoming planes will make it more difficult for the squad to fly into your low-priority sector and thus increase your AA damage, but it will also make you more vulnerable to AP shells from ships, torpedo attacks and rockets from aircraft. Does the increase in AA efficiency justify putting your ship in a vulnerable position? The answer depends on a wide range of variables, such as the strength of AA, turning radius of the ship, speed and distance of aircraft etc. In time, clever carrier captains will be able to bait battleships into prioritizes one sector, then flying into the low-priority sector before the player can change priority. This would punish inexperienced players while skilled players would be less severely affected. Of course, Captain skills and ship modules still has a large impact on effectiveness of AA as it rightfully should, but now the player's skill level actually has a meaningful impact.

 

Tl;Dr The new priority sector AA mechanic raises the skill ceiling of AA considerably, and rewards experienced players who take the time to learn the new sector.

 

 

 

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Ehh I think the new system is entirely too "fiddly" and was an unnecessary addition to the game. In all the complaints about carriers over the years, I never read one post asking for another mechanic to diddle with in the middle of combat to use in defense of your ship versus planes. If they wanted to add a silly mechanics like this to the game, they should have added a captain skill that automated the process so a player could concentrate on avoiding the attack, avoiding incoming fire, and shooting the reds. Whomever designed it is out of touch with what the players want and what the game needs. 

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"Zero skill to point and click on an aircraft.  An 8 year old can do it"

 

"Selects left sector... turns ship full broadside to shoot as many planes as he can....." yup this much better.

Turning all the time WASD to throw their aim off.... hell I forget to kill ships being so busy with AA management. 

 

 

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I have mixed feelings about sectoring. On BB it mostly feels like a waste of time, the buff is so small and the switch time so long it ends up being more a distraction than anything. You're better off getting AFT and ignoring sectoring unless you're certain all the planes will come from the same side. On cruisers sectoring feels pretty good overall. On destroyers sectoring + DFAA can be very potent, but without DFAA most DD have such low base AA that sectoring doesn't seem to do much.

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13 minutes ago, Taylor3006 said:

Ehh I think the new system is entirely too "fiddly" and was an unnecessary addition to the game. In all the complaints about carriers over the years, I never read one post asking for another mechanic to diddle with in the middle of combat to use in defense of your ship versus planes. If they wanted to add a silly mechanics like this to the game, they should have added a captain skill that automated the process so a player could concentrate on avoiding the attack, avoiding incoming fire, and shooting the reds. Whomever designed it is out of touch with what the players want and what the game needs.  

Prioritizing sector isn't necessary for shooting down planes. I understand why players are annoyed at having to deal with another mechanic, but personally, when I feel the red ships are a bigger threat than planes, I simply disable the priority, ignore the planes and focus on WASD hacking and shooting.

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9 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

"Zero skill to point and click on an aircraft.  An 8 year old can do it"

 

"Selects left sector... turns ship full broadside to shoot as many planes as he can....." yup this much better. 

Turning all the time WASD to throw their aim off.... hell I forget to kill ships being so busy with AA management. 

 

 

The trick is understanding when to select the sector, and when to turn a broadside.

There's no timing involved under the old system.

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Prioritizing a sector like this is one of the most ridiculous additions of 8.0, honestly. 

Back in the age of sail, when operating guns was a labor-intensive act that could be sped up simply by the addition of more hands, and when the opposite broadside crew could simply step across the gun deck... yeah, you could intensify your firepower by having more hands running the guns out or whatever. But it has zero place in WWII-era gunnery. Every single gun mount would be fully manned, and there was no concept of intensifying one side's fire at the expense of the other side. That's just stupid.

It makes far more sense to concentrate all the guns that can bear on a specific target--i.e., ctrl-click--than it does to take away power from one side and put it on the other. That's just more [bovine excrement] arcade stupidity.

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6 minutes ago, Gnomestroy said:

The trick is understanding when to select the sector, and when to turn a broadside.

There's no timing involved under the old system.

After watching FLAMU play the British T10 carrier.... there is nothing you can do against the torp planes.

 

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3 minutes ago, LT_Rusty_SWO said:

Prioritizing a sector like this is one of the most ridiculous additions of 8.0, honestly. 

Back in the age of sail, when operating guns was a labor-intensive act that could be sped up simply by the addition of more hands, and when the opposite broadside crew could simply step across the gun deck... yeah, you could intensify your firepower by having more hands running the guns out or whatever. But it has zero place in WWII-era gunnery. Every single gun mount would be fully manned, and there was no concept of intensifying one side's fire at the expense of the other side. That's just stupid. 

It makes far more sense to concentrate all the guns that can bear on a specific target--i.e., ctrl-click--than it does to take away power from one side and put it on the other. That's just more [bovine excrement] arcade stupidity.

Play arcade games, expect arcade stupidity.

The only resemblance this game has to actual naval combat is the fact that the ships have a passing resemblance to actual warships. In real life, an aircraft carrier would have an even larger impact on the battle than CVs pre-rework. A real-life CV is many times more dangerous than 5 destroyers put together.

Realism is never the most important thing in an arcade-game such as WoWs, and never will be.

 

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7 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

After watching FLAMU play the British T10 carrier.... there is nothing you can do against the torp planes.

 

That's not an issue with priority sector AA, that's a balancing issue, caused by the fact that skilled CV players can easily dodge flak. If point-and-click mechanic still existed, but AA is still as underpowered as it is now, there would still be nothing you can do against torp planes.

Edited by Gnomestroy

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14 minutes ago, Gnomestroy said:

Prioritizing sector isn't necessary for shooting down planes. I understand why players are annoyed at having to deal with another mechanic, but personally, when I feel the red ships are a bigger threat than planes, I simply disable the priority, ignore the planes and focus on WASD hacking and shooting.

Yes I understand this but my question is "Why?" I mean why did we need this? What does it add to the game? Does it make the game more fun? It literally is an unnecessary and unasked for mechanic. Now someone mentioned that it adds an element of human error to the game but again, why was it needed? Is there not enough to do in combat? If you can just ignore the incoming planes, doesn't that prove that the carrier rework is a failure? 

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1 minute ago, Taylor3006 said:

Yes I understand this but my question is "Why?" I mean why did we need this? What does it add to the game? Does it make the game more fun? It literally is an unnecessary and unasked for mechanic. Now someone mentioned that it adds an element of human error to the game but again, why was it needed? Is there not enough to do in combat? If you can just ignore the incoming planes, doesn't that prove that the carrier rework is a failure?  

Well, completely ignoring planes rewards the red CV with easy damage.

But, I have to agree, the priority sector does not make the game more fun. It's certainly more engaging, but selecting AA sector is nowhere near as fun as shooting at other ships.

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As I've said elsewhere, the sector focus mechanics is a useless distraction, only there to make players feel like they're "doing something". 

 

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38 minutes ago, Gnomestroy said:

That's not an issue with priority sector AA, that's a balancing issue, caused by the fact that skilled CV players can easily dodge flak. If point-and-click mechanic still existed, but AA is still as underpowered as it is now, there would still be nothing you can do against torp planes.

It was a Wooster and seattle....

The 2 worst AA ships in the game, right?

 

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8 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

It was a Wooster and seattle....

The 2 worst AA ships in the game, right?

 

Like I said, AA balance is ridiculously out of whack right now. Or are you agreeing with me?

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12 hours ago, Gnomestroy said:

Like I said, AA balance is ridiculously out of whack right now. Or are you agreeing with me?

Atlanta's AA is very poor now that you cannot extend your AA umbrella. 

So easy for a carrier to avoid once he has you spotted.

....

A ship alone is dead meat. 

.....

Destroyers are almost impossible to play.

....

And no I don't agree with you. Assigning a sector is just as easy as left clicking on a plane.

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So clicking the appropriate squad of incoming planes is something any 8 year old could do, but clicking the side of your ship that's toward the enemy is next level play?

lmbo ok.

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14 hours ago, Gnomestroy said:

I feel that at this point, it's too early for a verdict on the CV rework - the majority of carrier players are still learning to play with their new planes. While playing my Mahan and Aigle, numerous dive bombers or torpedo bombers attempted to attack me, which is just dumb. In the few instances where carriers were smart enough to actually use rocket planes, they missed about half of their attack runs because they attacked me from the bow or stern. That being said, in a couple of days, when new CV captains discover the "F" key, and the importance of not changing course in the middle of an attack run,  I expect the lives of DD captains are going to get even more difficult than it is now.

However, I feel it is early enough for me to come to a conclusion about the new sector AA system, and I have to say, it is an improvement. I'm not talking about the new flak mechanics/"balance" changes to AA bubbles , in fact I dislike the new flak, as it feels too inconsistent. This post is solely focused on the advantages of sector AA over the old system. 

IMO, the worst thing about the old point-and-click AA system is that there's zero skill involved. Any 8 year old can ctrl-click on the aircraft squadron. The skill ceiling for point-and-click AA is the exact same as the skill floor. And after you click on the squad and activate your Def AA, there's literally nothing else you can do to increase the efficiency of your AA. Sure, you can turn into torpedo bombers to mitigate damage, but that's not killing planes.

Why is this a problem, you might ask? In the old AA system, a 40% winrate potato with an AA build will shoot down more planes than a 70% unicum not using an AA build, over the course of a single attack run. Of course, over the course of the entire match, the unicum will most likely shoot down more planes, due to surviving longer into the match, and taking less damage from bombing runs. But the fact that skill has no effect on AA is still a problem for pre-rework CVs.

Now, the AA mechanic still doesn't require significant amounts of skill. At first glance, there doesn't seem to be much to it besides selecting sector and turning the ship. But upon close examination, the new sector AA has a far higher skill ceiling than the old system. An experienced player who swaps the sector at exactly the right moment will inflict significantly higher damage than a novice who swaps 5 seconds too slowly. Swapping sectors at the right moment requires good prediction skills, situational awareness, as well as lots of experience.

There's also a risk-reward gamble at play; exposing your broadside to the incoming planes will make it more difficult for the squad to fly into your low-priority sector and thus increase your AA damage, but it will also make you more vulnerable to AP shells from ships, torpedo attacks and rockets from aircraft. Does the increase in AA efficiency justify putting your ship in a vulnerable position? The answer depends on a wide range of variables, such as the strength of AA, turning radius of the ship, speed and distance of aircraft etc. In time, clever carrier captains will be able to bait battleships into prioritizes one sector, then flying into the low-priority sector before the player can change priority. This would punish inexperienced players while skilled players would be less severely affected. Of course, Captain skills and ship modules still has a large impact on effectiveness of AA as it rightfully should, but now the player's skill level actually has a meaningful impact.

 

Tl;Dr The new priority sector AA mechanic raises the skill ceiling of AA considerably, and rewards experienced players who take the time to learn the new sector.

 

 

 

Any  positive comment on CV rework will be punished by forums without exception.  You have been warned!    

 

However I tend to agree with your assessment.  I am not a fan of the UI and controls for it.  But I think it does add a bit more player involvement to make full use of your AA defenses... Previous system  was a lot more of a click and forget..    Didn't matter how your ship was positioned or driven.  Just click until it was gone and then click another.

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The old CTRL click system would absolutely never work in the rework version. At all. Reason is that in the past, you'd see multiple squads coming in at a time and choose one to focus on. Now, since CV players can only field one unit at a time, CTRL click would be lazy and far too easy for the AA surface ship.

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So far what I like about the new AA system is, it forces ships to group up like a fleet/move in group like the fleet. To maximize the maximum output of flak on planes. 

The old system, gave AA destruction power to just one ship. If that ship was not on your team then, you have no ship AA def.

I like the new system. Its not perfect but its a step into the right direction for team/fleet play.

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29 minutes ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

Atlanta's AA is very poor now that you cannot extend your AA umbrella. 

So easy for a carrier to avoid once he has you spotted.

Not only that, but the loss of range boosts from AFT, etc, means that:

  1. You lose a lot of capacity to protect other ships.
  2. The CV pilot (no longer captains or drivers or sailors, they're pilots) can memorize each ship's AA and has no calculated risk to consider regarding whether a target ship has AFT or other range boosts. 

Combine that with the loss of overlap between the range bands of the three AA mount sizes, and a lot of ships that have good AA on paper are lackluster in practice, and a lot of ships that had at least decent AA in the old system are gutted in the new system. 

 

 

 

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Noooo, the old point and click system to target was way better than the new system. It's too clumsy and takes too long to change sides.

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Sectors suck because more then half of a CV's squadrons attack from the front or the back and not the sides. (DBs and Tiny Tim for US). Same issue that's always existed with Secondaries that should all be able to fire forward but only one side does when you use manual secondaries.

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18 hours ago, dEsTurbed1 said:

"Zero skill to point and click on an aircraft.  An 8 year old can do it"

 

"Selects left sector... turns ship full broadside to shoot as many planes as he can....." yup this much better.

Turning all the time WASD to throw their aim off.... hell I forget to kill ships being so busy with AA management. 

 

 

lol this def this.  Same here as in i was so busy using the AA and making circles the first day at least that I finished the game with 35 k damage in a Worcester of all things!!! 

I did not even have time to focus on shooting anything I was to busy trying to swat flies form the sky

image.png.afd8f0fae3f85bf1ce44405432f7fbb0.png

On a side note in Ranked it was really interesting launching my fighter and seeing an entire squadron of planes take off from my ship lol.  I was like ohhh i missed that in the notes where if i now launch a plane 4 take off

Edited by GUNSTAR_THE_LEGEND

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1 hour ago, GUNSTAR_THE_LEGEND said:

lol this def this.  Same here as in i was so busy using the AA and making circles the first day at least that I finished the game with 35 k damage in a Worcester of all things!!! 

I did not even have time to focus on shooting anything I was to busy trying to swat flies form the sky

image.png.afd8f0fae3f85bf1ce44405432f7fbb0.png

On a side note in Ranked it was really interesting launching my fighter and seeing an entire squadron of planes take off from my ship lol.  I was like ohhh i missed that in the notes where if i now launch a plane 4 take off

It seems to have settled down a bit.

But with 2 carriers and constant air attack, it is difficult to do good damage. Sorry I'm a potato. 

Took z52 out and shot a few planes down, solo capped and killed a gearing..then died between b and a....

1 torp hit, 36k damage... pitiful. 

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