Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
mykil

Reworked CV's vision control makes random battles static and uninteresting

61 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

22
[-TXT-]
Alpha Tester
55 posts
17,607 battles

So after only one day, will the whining ever stop? I am not sure what Wargaming is thinking, let’s chase away half our players and try to get a new generation?

Just bought the Stalingrad, and the Kronstadt, they appear to be useless as tits on a bullfrog at his particular time. Seems like if this is a Russian game, they might wanna fix this. Can’t bring out a DD, you are spotted 100% of the time, kind of defeats the purpose. The only ships that appear to be any good and De Monies, Worcester and Minotaur.

All anyone on discord does is whine about the planes in the sky, this is no longer a hobby, or a game, it is more like a job to play the game. I don’t understand, but I am sure I am not the only one.

Can’t wait for the trolls to reply about how this has only made the game better, and I must be such a bad player… lol… the Division 2 is out soon, I am sure I won’t be missed…

 

  • Cool 3
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
263
[RTXN]
Beta Testers
920 posts
4 minutes ago, RobertViktor68 said:

take a break and give it a month

...and waste your premium time.

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
631 posts
11 battles
14 minutes ago, mykil said:

So after only one day, will the whining ever stop? I am not sure what Wargaming is thinking, let’s chase away half our players and try to get a new generation?

Just bought the Stalingrad, and the Kronstadt, they appear to be useless as tits on a bullfrog at his particular time. Seems like if this is a Russian game, they might wanna fix this. Can’t bring out a DD, you are spotted 100% of the time, kind of defeats the purpose. The only ships that appear to be any good and De Monies, Worcester and Minotaur.

All anyone on discord does is whine about the planes in the sky, this is no longer a hobby, or a game, it is more like a job to play the game. I don’t understand, but I am sure I am not the only one.

Can’t wait for the trolls to reply about how this has only made the game better, and I must be such a bad player… lol… the Division 2 is out soon, I am sure I won’t be missed…

 

Play ranked.....Only this CV change can make the most toxic part of the game a "Safe Zone" or a "Happy Place"

See the source image

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
763
[WOLF4]
Members
1,524 posts
3,510 battles
22 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Division 2 looks good

I'm enjoying the hell out of the first one. Just got it in humble, bit late yeah.

Edit: Glad i could waste someone's down vote too. One less for you to use on someone else.

Edited by xalmgrey

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
706
[-BUI-]
Members
1,252 posts
3,170 battles
12 minutes ago, RobertViktor68 said:

take a break and give it a month

Will it really matter?    I don't think CVs can ever be properly balanced in a way that everyone would enjoy.   The CVs will always feel weak against higher tier and oppressive against lower tier.

Playing the Lexington a bunch last night 1 thing became very clear to me:   Higher tier meant I might get 1 attack.   Lower tier meant I got all 3, with ease.   T6 ship?  Good luck, you are fodder.   Tier 10 ship?   I'll just fly in circles and keep you spotted because if I go past 5.9 I lost all my planes in a few seconds.  

With such a HUGE disparity over tiers it means its a number problem, a scale problem with those numbers.    If you have a dial that can only go to 10 (separate this from tiers), and 6 is too low but 7 is too high, how do you balance that?   6.5?    Its like Diablo 3, that game has two states:  Too powerful and not powerful enough.   Thats what I fear CVs will always be.   Either AA will be totally ineffective or it'll shred planes.   Either bombs will do too much damage or not nearly enough.   There is no appropriate middle ground to even find, it doesn't exist.   

Personally, if I run a strong AA ship, I expect immunity from planes or there is no point to playing that ship.   If the AA ships are not any more effective at stopping plane attacks than a non-AA ship, why would I ever play the AA ship?   And if both suck at AA why would I waste my time with ANY surface ships?

I plan to ONLY play the Lexington (if I play at all right now) for the time being, so that I'm part of the problem, because its a HELL of a lot better than being fodder.   I'm the guy who is rushing his rockets to the enemy DD EVERY SINGLE GAME and doing a few thousand before he even gets near the cap point, and I REFUSE to be the DD in that situation as well.

Game would be better served by just removing CVs from the game, thats when Warships is at its best, when it just BBs, CCs, and DDs.

Edited by Zenn3k
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,154
[_-_]
Members
2,033 posts
8 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Will it really matter?    I don't think CVs can ever be properly balanced in a way that everyone would enjoy.   The CVs will always feel weak against higher tier and oppressive against lower tier.

Playing the Lexington a bunch last night 1 thing became very clear to me:   Higher tier meant I might get 1 attack.   Lower tier meant I got all 3, with ease.   T6 ship?  Good luck, you are fodder.   Tier 10 ship?   I'll just fly in circles and keep you spotted because if I go past 5.9 I lost all my planes in a few seconds.  

With such a HUGE disparity over tiers it means its a number problem, a scale problem with those numbers.    If you have a dial that can only go to 10 (separate this from tiers), and 6 is too low but 7 is too high, how do you balance that?   6.5?    Its like Diablo 3, that game has two states:  Too powerful and not powerful enough.   Thats what I fear CVs will always be.   Either AA will be totally ineffective or it'll shred planes.   Either bombs will do too much damage or not nearly enough.   There is no appropriate middle ground to even find, it doesn't exist.   

Personally, if I run a strong AA ship, I expect immunity from planes or there is no point to playing that ship.   If the AA ships are not any more effective at stopping plane attacks than a non-AA ship, why would I ever play the AA ship?   And if both suck at AA why would I waste my time with ANY surface ships?

I plan to ONLY play the Lexington (if I play at all right now) for the time being, so that I'm part of the problem, because its a HELL of a lot better than being fodder.   I'm the guy who is rushing his rockets to the enemy DD EVERY SINGLE GAME and doing a few thousand before he even gets near the cap point, and I REFUSE to be the DD in that situation as well.

Game would be better served by just removing CVs from the game, thats when Warships is at its best, when it just BBs, CCs, and DDs.

I hear ya. It really is a shame people are going to have ports full of unplayable ships or be made to just bend over and take it (that's what "adapt" really means) from the big Sky Johnson. I'm considering my options too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
314
[5IN]
Supertester
1,984 posts
9,202 battles

Same here.  Ranked for DD play now..  after that, who knows.  More time for HOI4 and Stellaris it seems.

B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
221
[REEF]
Beta Testers
841 posts
9,311 battles

I am in a quandary as well.  I find no joy in the game with the CV change.  I tried to play a CV during the PT and failed.  I failed again now, just can't get the hang of it.  So, I went out and played my BB's, CL's and CA's and it was miserable, under almost constant air assault.  So, now what, I just want to quit to show my displeasure, but what about the money I just spent buying santa crates, premium time, doubloons and buying back my T9 ships for ranked battles.  If I quit it is money down the tubes,  FRACK YOU WG, JUST FRACK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
221
[REEF]
Beta Testers
841 posts
9,311 battles
11 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

The new Metro comes out shortly, as well.

What is division 1, division 2 and metro?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
763
[WOLF4]
Members
1,524 posts
3,510 battles
7 minutes ago, FlashTX1 said:

What is division 1, division 2 and metro?

Google is your friend.

Can't post much about other games here without running risk of "advertising" and getting a forum smack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
706
[-BUI-]
Members
1,252 posts
3,170 battles
13 minutes ago, FlashTX1 said:

I am in a quandary as well.  I find no joy in the game with the CV change.  I tried to play a CV during the PT and failed.  I failed again now, just can't get the hang of it.  So, I went out and played my BB's, CL's and CA's and it was miserable, under almost constant air assault.  So, now what, I just want to quit to show my displeasure, but what about the money I just spent buying santa crates, premium time, doubloons and buying back my T9 ships for ranked battles.  If I quit it is money down the tubes,  FRACK YOU WG, JUST FRACK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember the only thing companies understand is money and how you spend it.    If you want change, stop spending.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,932
[SQUAD]
Members
8,140 posts
8,404 battles
19 minutes ago, FlashTX1 said:

What is division 1, division 2 and metro?

Can't really go in to detail without risking violating the ToS, sorry man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
75
[RN716]
Members
42 posts
9,154 battles

I don't want to get into all of the issues that the CV "rework" presents. I only want to focus on one issue: how the new, risk-free, vision control is going to make (or rather, has already made) random battles static damage farming festivals where objectives are outright ignored and concealment dependent ships are obsolete.

Under the old system, a very good CV could provide more vision for their team than under the new system. The ability to control up to eight squadrons at once was powerful, but also fairly difficult, so not many people could provide super-unicum levels of vision control on the enemy team from the start of the match.

Under the new system every carrier, no matter how bad they are at actually playing carriers, can provide constant vision control over every enemy ship on the map. They can accomplish this not because they are going out of their way to spot targets, but because they're making attack runs with infinite planes that make wide swooping arcs around the enemy ships they are striking, spotting everything along the way. Old CVs could also dive deep onto the enemy side of the map and spot everything, but they would very likely permanently lose their planes for it; under the new system CVs can dive their squadrons in with reckless abandon over and over and over again then press the magical "F" key to send their planes back as soon as it looks like they might actually die instead of just lose HP. They don't even have to be dealing damage to completely recreate the meta of random battles. We can see this happening just by looking at the discussion around new CVs over the last 24 hours. So many complaints about new CVs are not coming from the people being permanently spotted by their mere presence in a match, but from players playing new CVs and doing terrible, scoring minimal damage, and having little to no fun. This is one of the other issues of the rework, but I don't want to talk about that issue in depth here.

Back to vision control, when people are spotted within a minute of the match starting they play differently. I know that I do. Players with low concealment ships that could previously use that concealment to get into positions from which they could apply pressure onto an area (for example, a cap) can no longer do so without coming under the guns of every ship with range to hit them within a minute of the match, all the while being bombed by whatever squad was launched first that spotted them. Naturally, this leads to situations where players don't try to get into positions to leverage control over areas. Caps are left untouched 5, 10, even 15 minutes into matches and ships trade at max range for 20 minutes until one team farms harder than the other and wins.

TL;DR - Random battles have devolved into farm fests because no one can safely play at their concealment radius anymore; the only safety left available is distance and hoping enemy ships can't aim. Infinite re-supply planes allow unstoppable vision with no risk to the carrier and, by the very process of the CV trying to acquire damage, they will inevitably spot huge swaths of the enemy fleet because of the wide, sweeping turns that their aircraft must make to line up for attack runs.


This next bit is more my experience with the rework as a DD and low concealment ship player, less about meta, more about how it feels to be the ship being spotted.

Ever since I started playing this game I have loved the tension of playing around concealment and radar ranges, as close to the opposing team as possible while still trying to remain safe. I loved moving into positions that would surprise enemy players and from which I could leverage control over areas for the benefit of my team. I loved playing for the objective and knifefighting multiple enemy ships with my support a few kilometers behind me and their support a few kilometers behind them. Naturally old CVs that were good threw this out of whack, and when I had those matches I would adjust my play style accordingly for the duration of the match and do my best with what was given; it wasn't fun, but it was infrequent so I dealt with it. But with how easy and risk free spotting has become for CVs every match feels like an uphill battle against something that I can't even fight back against. If a DM radars me I can shoot it, if an enemy Z-52 rushes into a cap I can wait his hydro out and move in when his smoke+hydro combo is down, if a BB rushes my smoke I can torp him. What can I do against infinite resupply 250 knot planes that can be instantly recalled as soon as they want? How do I outplay someone whose very presence near me lets his entire team spot me while I'm in a ship that relies upon vision control to be effective?

I wouldn't be surprised if this sounds familiar to anyone, because these are some of the exact same issues that old CVs had, but now instead of occasionally getting an enemy CV that could wrangle the obtrusive RTS UI enough to be good anyone and their mother can zip around in 250 knots planes bombing away with impunity; the worst part is that they don't even have to be good to do it! They could be up there missing every strike, having an awful time, and now both of us have had a terrible match.

For DDs the nail in the coffin is the absurd level of vision control that reworked CVs provide. I'm sure some might read this and rejoice, DDs with their klingon stealth drives are dead! Finally the menace is ended and I can snipe in my Montana from 20km away. And for a while, I'm sure you will be able to. If I enjoyed BB gameplay I would have kitted out an AA Monty and gone to town instead of just uninstalling the game. But as carrier players get better they are going to start figuring out that they can launch a wall of 8 torps at your BB from 6km away. They're going to start figuring out how to drop AP bombs onto those heavy cruisers to land the 9k cits or just drop torps in the same way that they do on BBs.

I am eagerly looking forward to re-installing in 3-4 months to play objective based games during the 5th season of clan battles. Surely WG would never include a class with such controversy and balance issues into the client's only team based competitive mode.

Surely.

Edited by Kelsier3
  • Cool 19
  • Boring 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,932
[SQUAD]
Members
8,140 posts
8,404 battles

Your concern about vision control is the exact major concern I had from before the update dropped, and it is still my major concern today, and why I'm only doing Ranked matches.

 

My one and only round yesterday was with Irian in co-op. I was spotted 1:06 into the match, I was never unspotted from that point on. The match lasted 18:36, so, for 17:30 of that, I was spotted, and that was with one, just one, CV, and an AI one at that. I died right as the match ended, I did well, however, had that been 11 human players, instead of 7 bots, gunning for me in my thinly armored light cruiser, there's simply no way I would have been able to do anything at all. A win in which I did quite well was 0 fun.-EDIT- Apparently the CV in my match was a glitch of some kind, as I'm told there aren't supposed to be CVs in Co-op right now. However, there was one in mine, sooooo.

 

Go it alone, die. Stay together, get farmed by everything that can reach you, die. I enjoy facing off against other players, showcasing my skills against theirs, if I lose, so be it. I do not play this game to never have a chance to do that. I play exactly zero games in which the gameplay offers me no chance. Why? Because I'm not freakin stupid, unlike this so called "rework."

 

CV's must not be allowed to launch planes the instant the match starts. Furthermore, CVs must not be allowed infinite planes, with a launch cycle that's better than virtually all battleships main gun reload time. No class can be immune to risk, while gaining nothing but rewards just for launching planes. 3 entire classes cannot be at the mercy of one for this, or any game, to have any balance whatsoever. Enhanced AA will not solve this problem, only the reduction in the number of planes available to a CV and the increase in risk to CVs will solve this problem.

 

Whomever at WG/Lesta that thought those were great ideas needs to be reprimanded, at the very least, and both those things must change, or the game will, I repeat, will, die.

 

I will not play anything in this game that allows CVs until Godmode is removed from CVs, nor will I spend one flat penny on this, or any WG product until balance is fixed. I truly wish I wasn't saying that, but, WG, you did this, not me. Want my money? Fix the game, the game you completely broke. It is not fun, and I do not pay real money to not have fun.

Edited by Th3KrimzonD3mon
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,662 posts
14,253 battles

Nice write- up.  Played a few games last night, most in co-op to get a feel for the new environment, but also to knock off a few snowflakes from tier 9 purchases for ranked.  Played 3 randoms, and they were pretty weird games.  First random in new Irian, spent a good part of the game spotted - my team was steamrolled.  2nd game in a Jutland, the focus of CV, while more smokes, the duration of the smoke ment the planes were still around and quickly under fire again, this one was a close match.  3rd game was in Flint, again spotted most of the game, tried to provide some AA support, was under fire any time I was not in smoke.  My team got rolled, only one kill for me and one by another DD.  

Countinuos spotting felt like an issue, will see what tonight looks like - may not take out any of my RN DDs, concerned that short duration smoke may not provide enough cover

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,168
[RLGN]
Members
10,370 posts
19,664 battles
9 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

My one and only round yesterday was with Irian in co-op.

I think LWM talked about this yesterday?

Believe I also saw something about it in Arsenal?

Related to the Lunar New Year?

Is it Pan Asian? a ship? a captain?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28
[WOLF3]
Beta Testers
77 posts
4,309 battles
8 minutes ago, Th3KrimzonD3mon said:

I will not play anything in this game that allows CVs until Godmode is removed from CVs, nor will I spend one flat penny on this, or any WG product until balance is fixed. I truly wish I wasn't saying that, but, WG, you did this, not me. Want my money? Fix the game, the game you completely broke. It is not fun, and I do not pay real money to not have fun.

I wish I had more upvotes for the above.  Played multiple high tier games last night different classes and I quickly realized I hate the new CV perma spotting meta and none of the games were fun.  You know its bad when ranked looks better than playing another random battle.  I will not be spending another dime on this game until major changes are made to CV's impact on vision.  WG better not let this go on too long as once people move from rage to apathy they are never coming back.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,551
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
6,272 posts
10,767 battles

Yup. Constantly spotted, can't go anywhere.

My Salem, with AA build, shot down a grand total of 6 planes in the last game. :Smile_sad:

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
433
[S0L0]
Members
1,103 posts
5,767 battles
14 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

I think LWM talked about this yesterday?

Believe I also saw something about it in Arsenal?

Related to the Lunar New Year?

Is it Pan Asian? a ship? a captain?

Pan-Asian Kutznutzoff, no smoke but with Yue-Yang torpedoes.

 

Matt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
74
[WSU]
Members
154 posts
7,792 battles
1 hour ago, Kelsier3 said:

I am eagerly looking forward to re-installing in 3-4 months to play objective based games during the 5th season of clan battles. Surely WG would never include a class with such controversy and balance issues into the client's only team based competitive mode.

Surely.

Sadly, I predict you will be disappointed.

And agree 100% with everything you said. Even T4-5 DD games suck. That used to be my seal clubbing playground.

I'm just gonna fiddle around in ranked or ops and see what happens next.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×