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Borla78

CV Rework: The Good, the Bad, and the Proposed Solutions.

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Let's tick through some of the main things that are (arguably) better with the 0.8.0 CV rework:

1) Very good CV players can no longer dev strike targets at will within 1-2 strikes.  Now good CV players accumulate damage and force the use of damage control/repair over time.  The impact is now similar to the impact a cruiser player has on the game.  If they are weak they have little impact on the game, but also probably don't cost you the game based on their sole performance.  If they are strong they can be a huge pest, slowly farm damage throughout the match, stack fires/floods, but still not completely carry a team to victory without help.  Ignoring (for a moment) spotting, the damage dealing alone actually feels kind of balanced, or at least something that could be tweaked until balanced.   

2) Having a very good CV player on one team and a poor CV player on the other team no longer means an 80/20 chance of the good CV winning.  We've all experienced this in the past, where almost no matter what either team did, the outcome was largely decided the minute the two CVs dropped.  Now a good CV can help contribute to victory, but there have been many games where one CV does a lot, the other team's CV doesn't do much, but it didn't swing the match.  This is how it should be.

3) The plane controls have a more intuitive feel.  I didn't play any PTS, yet after 2-3 co-op games I felt comfortable enough to play in randoms.  My first couple of games I won while being decent (70k dmg, 1 kill in Midway, 59k dmg, 2 kills in Shokaku), but not great.  The fact that I won without being awesome, but that I could perform at a reasonable level with little practice, makes this feel way better than the way CVs were.  We've all seen the guys with 4k Midway games and 38%WR.  Most of those players should at least be able to be closer to the mean than before.  Instead of 80% of the CVs fitting into either the sub-44% WR range or the 60%+ WR range (when the win rate for the vast majority of players falls between 44-60% in surface ships), there will now be a much higher portion of the CV population that are high 40s to low 50s.  Again, having a more limited and reasonable impact on their team's win rate.

 

All of those things are things most of us non-CV mains have been asking for forever.  Even if there is tweaking needed, at least a light at the end of the tunnel is visible IMO.

 

 

Here are some of the problems with the 0.8.0 CV rework, with proposed solutions.  The solutions proposed are ones that should fit easily into the existing game mechanics.

1) Early game spotting is far too strong.  Launch a rocket squadron, speed boost it (and use the consumable to boost again as needed) to the enemy's spawn points and you can almost immediately get spotting on 7-10 ships.  Spot the DDs, run a quick single attack on each, and not only does your team know where they all are, you've likely made them blow a smoke and a repair.  All of this comes at very little cost to the CV, as another squad can be immediately launched if the rocket planes are killed or done with their attacks.

Partial solution (more to come later that will help) : Force a short delay at the start of the match before the CV can launch.  The timing would need played with to balance it, but perhaps somewhere in the 20-40 second range?  Or even make the delay be slightly different for different CVs?

2) Overall spotting is stronger than it should be.  With the ability to insta-recall sqaudrons to avoid AA, and other existing mechanics, CVs still provide too much spotting that can't be countered.

Solution (adds to previous early game spotting solution) : Reduce overall aircraft spotting, perhaps by 10-15% overall, perhaps by different percentages by class (15% DD, 12% CA, 10% BB/CV?).  This could be balanced or tweaked, but an overall change for all classes, especially DDs, would be helpful.  ALSO, change the spotting mechanic to be similar to the newly proposed radar spotting mechanic.  Allow the CVs to spot ships for themselves, but cause a 5-7 second delay where the CV's teammates only see the ship on the mini-map.  If the plane breaks sight at any time, the delay restarts.

3) Radio Locator is too strong for CVs.  Currently a CV player can use Radio Locator while flying a squadron and immediately go in a straight line to the nearest ship.  This is particularly strong in the late game.

Solution : Radio Locator should only show the direction of the nearest ship from the CV itself.  If a CV is controlling a squadron, the directional locator should reflect only the RDF location from the ship, not the planes.

4) The controls to focus AA are less than ideal.  Hitting "O" then clicking the port or starboard side of the ship while the icon is up is more cumbersome than it needs to be.

Solution : Implement hot keys in addition to the current control.  Perhaps "G" focuses AA on the port side of the ship and "H" focuses AA on the starboard side?  

 

 

 

There are several positives and negatives that could be added to this list, but I think if these QOL issues were addressed with the reasonable proposed solutions it would go a long way towards balancing the new CV impact.

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1 minute ago, Borla78 said:

) Radio Locator is too strong for CVs.  Currently a CV player can use Radio Locator while flying a squadron and immediately go in a straight line to the nearest ship.  This is particularly strong in the late game

Wow that is a great idea lol.

Good post by the way. At least you are using your head and not your emotions. +1

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2 minutes ago, paradat said:

Wow that is a great idea lol.

Good post by the way. At least you are using your head and not your emotions. +1

There are enough pitchforks out there.  I'd personally have loved for them to have just removed all CVs from the game, issued refunds in doubloons/credits, and moved on.  But that's obviously not going to happen.  So it seems far more productive to honestly assess what they probably got right, or close, then try to be solution oriented about the issues that remain.  I tried to use solutions that comfortably fit into current game play/concepts so they wouldn't be horribly complex to implement.

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3 minutes ago, Borla78 said:

There are enough pitchforks out there.  I'd personally have loved for them to have just removed all CVs from the game, issued refunds in doubloons/credits, and moved on.  But that's obviously not going to happen.  So it seems far more productive to honestly assess what they probably got right, or close, then try to be solution oriented about the issues that remain.  I tried to use solutions that comfortably fit into current game play/concepts so they wouldn't be horribly complex to implement.

Yeah, Well CV's are the focus for the next two patches. I am sure we will settle down. I am very interested to see how the Meta shakes out particularly for DD's.

Will teams go for caps in strength and fight for them? Will Caps become a mid to end game thing instead of beginning of the game thing? Will CV's break up the island humping radar CA's ? Lots of implications. I think we will end up in a more dynamic and fun place once it is all done. 

Then bring on the SUBS!!!

Great time to be out on the water. 

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2) Overall spotting is stronger than it should be.  With the ability to insta-recall squadrons to avoid AA, and other existing mechanics, CVs still provide too much spotting that can't be countered.

Solution (adds to previous early game spotting solution) : Reduce overall aircraft spotting, perhaps by 10-15% overall, perhaps by different percentages by class (15% DD, 12% CA, 10% BB/CV?).  This could be balanced or tweaked, but an overall change for all classes, especially DDs, would be helpful.  ALSO, change the spotting mechanic to be similar to the newly proposed radar spotting mechanic.  Allow the CVs to spot ships for themselves, but cause a 5-7 second delay where the CV's teammates only see the ship on the mini-map.  If the plane breaks sight at any time, the delay restarts.

Additionally perhaps the plane only spots things in the pilots FOV AND only after being in FOV for 3 seconds or so. Thus spotting is an activity of the pilot not a side effect of simply flying over an area. While on an attack run, no spotting would take place as the pilot is focused on the task of attacking.

 

Edited by Soulcaller

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The changes have affected low tier CV play a bit more drastically than high tier.  There were still some low tier clubbers even after they removed manual drops, but with the new changes, it's going to be hard to depend on CVs to do much at tier IV.  The margin for error is very slim since you only get one torp drop in a single run at tier IV, damage can also be hard to farm.  Also, island drops for torps seem very possible.  Had an instance the other day where my torp bomber dropped from a height that shouldn't be possible for the aircraft type (I literally watched the torp drop from the height of the island's peak into the water and arm).  Lastly, I find the controls to be a lot friendlier to the average player, but my thoughts are the potato CV players are going to potato harder with the changes.

First impressions.

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After about ten games, with my Khaba getting focused a lot, I feel like I've seen about 10% CVs with the skill to be rage-quittingly OP.  Another 10% might as well be spectators for all they contribute, while most carrier drivers seem about as effective as CVs used to be before the patch.  That's not the end of the world. 

Now in a few months I think decent players will up their skill quite a bit and new exploits will show up.  I expect a couple of things to get patched quickly.  

First, DD air spotting radius will probably go down across the board.  I understand that we're kicking reality in the sensitive parts here, but this is a class-based shooter on water.  A DD that can't survive unless it stays under the skirt of friendly cruisers has been hard countered to the point that it upsets game balance.  Khaba can mostly ignore planes, but that's because * I don't care about stealth, * I can heal, and * rockets bounce off my armor.  Even so one or two unicums absolutely nuked me before I could shoot my guns.  It was especially frustrating that even a Montana's AA umbrella couldn't save me.  9/10 DDs could use less air harrassment.  

Let's all agree that the recall-invulnerability thing is a bug that will get fixed.  Honestly, WG.  The hit-P-and-activate-DFAA plane ambush needs to remain a valid tactic.  It's a bread and butter technique for AA-focused cruisers. 

Edited by Eugenie_101

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42 minutes ago, Borla78 said:

Let's tick through some of the main things that are (arguably) better with the 0.8.0 CV rework:

1) Very good CV players can no longer dev strike targets at will within 1-2 strikes.  Now good CV players accumulate damage and force the use of damage control/repair over time.  The impact is now similar to the impact a cruiser player has on the game.  If they are weak they have little impact on the game, but also probably don't cost you the game based on their sole performance.  If they are strong they can be a huge pest, slowly farm damage throughout the match, stack fires/floods, but still not completely carry a team to victory without help.  Ignoring (for a moment) spotting, the damage dealing alone actually feels kind of balanced, or at least something that could be tweaked until balanced.   

2) Having a very good CV player on one team and a poor CV player on the other team no longer means an 80/20 chance of the good CV winning.  We've all experienced this in the past, where almost no matter what either team did, the outcome was largely decided the minute the two CVs dropped.  Now a good CV can help contribute to victory, but there have been many games where one CV does a lot, the other team's CV doesn't do much, but it didn't swing the match.  This is how it should be.

3) The plane controls have a more intuitive feel.  I didn't play any PTS, yet after 2-3 co-op games I felt comfortable enough to play in randoms.  My first couple of games I won while being decent (70k dmg, 1 kill in Midway, 59k dmg, 2 kills in Shokaku), but not great.  The fact that I won without being awesome, but that I could perform at a reasonable level with little practice, makes this feel way better than the way CVs were.  We've all seen the guys with 4k Midway games and 38%WR.  Most of those players should at least be able to be closer to the mean than before.  Instead of 80% of the CVs fitting into either the sub-44% WR range or the 60%+ WR range (when the win rate for the vast majority of players falls between 44-60% in surface ships), there will now be a much higher portion of the CV population that are high 40s to low 50s.  Again, having a more limited and reasonable impact on their team's win rate.

 

All of those things are things most of us non-CV mains have been asking for forever.  Even if there is tweaking needed, at least a light at the end of the tunnel is visible IMO.

 

 

Here are some of the problems with the 0.8.0 CV rework, with proposed solutions.  The solutions proposed are ones that should fit easily into the existing game mechanics.

1) Early game spotting is far too strong.  Launch a rocket squadron, speed boost it (and use the consumable to boost again as needed) to the enemy's spawn points and you can almost immediately get spotting on 7-10 ships.  Spot the DDs, run a quick single attack on each, and not only does your team know where they all are, you've likely made them blow a smoke and a repair.  All of this comes at very little cost to the CV, as another squad can be immediately launched if the rocket planes are killed or done with their attacks.

Partial solution (more to come later that will help) : Force a short delay at the start of the match before the CV can launch.  The timing would need played with to balance it, but perhaps somewhere in the 20-40 second range?  Or even make the delay be slightly different for different CVs?

2) Overall spotting is stronger than it should be.  With the ability to insta-recall sqaudrons to avoid AA, and other existing mechanics, CVs still provide too much spotting that can't be countered.

Solution (adds to previous early game spotting solution) : Reduce overall aircraft spotting, perhaps by 10-15% overall, perhaps by different percentages by class (15% DD, 12% CA, 10% BB/CV?).  This could be balanced or tweaked, but an overall change for all classes, especially DDs, would be helpful.  ALSO, change the spotting mechanic to be similar to the newly proposed radar spotting mechanic.  Allow the CVs to spot ships for themselves, but cause a 5-7 second delay where the CV's teammates only see the ship on the mini-map.  If the plane breaks sight at any time, the delay restarts.

3) Radio Locator is too strong for CVs.  Currently a CV player can use Radio Locator while flying a squadron and immediately go in a straight line to the nearest ship.  This is particularly strong in the late game.

Solution : Radio Locator should only show the direction of the nearest ship from the CV itself.  If a CV is controlling a squadron, the directional locator should reflect only the RDF location from the ship, not the planes.

4) The controls to focus AA are less than ideal.  Hitting "O" then clicking the port or starboard side of the ship while the icon is up is more cumbersome than it needs to be.

Solution : Implement hot keys in addition to the current control.  Perhaps "G" focuses AA on the port side of the ship and "H" focuses AA on the starboard side?  

 

 

 

There are several positives and negatives that could be added to this list, but I think if these QOL issues were addressed with the reasonable proposed solutions it would go a long way towards balancing the new CV impact.

One of the best write  ups I've seen.

I mean, I take my rocket planes off, race to the enemy side, scout their entire team... and heaven forbid I lose them... that 765 damage I would do on a dd with 8 hits... Now 9 seconds later I take off in my Torpedo planes with a chance to do some damage.

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Excellent post, man! It's so damn refreshing seeing optimistic and analytical players offering concrete feedback and suggestions rather than yet more "I quit!" threads that are popping up everywhere.

So concerning your pros and cons, here's my own feedback.

Pros:

1) Agreed. It's very very difficult to flat out kill a ship within a few seconds like in the old system. Unless that target ship had a sliver of health. I think we can all breath a sigh of relief that Taiho/Hak triple cross drops are a thing of the past.
2) Agreed.
3) Certainly easier to learn, although there is still a learning curve since you control planes with both WASD and mouse. But yes, much much easier. Or more accurately, lining up drops is harder ... but you don't have to control a half dozen squads at the same time, nor do heavy strafe fighter micro all match. Very nice.

Cons:

1) Well, here is where people forget that CVs have existed since forever, and that plane spotting under that old system was MUCH worse than now. MUCH. But ... it still doesn't invalidate your argument that plane spotting is problematic in the long run, especially for DD players. And I agree that air detection ranges should be dropped, although not necessarily for all ships. But DDs should be really hard to spot from the air unless they have their AA turned on. Your idea about delaying carrier plane launching is not bad, but I'm not sure about any solution that prevents people from playing the full 20 minutes of the match, know what I mean? I do believe dropping the air detection on DDs definitely needs to be done, and maybe a touch on cruisers as well.

2) See above. Spotting is much less of an issue than it was in the prior RTS model ... but at the same time, most players have become complacent due to the lack of CVs in the vast majority of high tier matches. Now that CVs are more popular, it becomes an issue once more. That being said, do note that hitting F to recall your squad instantly unspots whatever you were spotting. This is unlike the previous model where you could still keep one or two squads flying around your target while your other squads returned to the carrier to rearm.

3) Radio Location IS strong, I'll agree. But it's also a 4 point captain skill and you have to sacrifice other valuable skills to equip it. Remember that this is the same tier as really important CV skills like Sight Stabilization and Concealment Expert. Do note, though, that Radio Location would be *completely useless* if it were on the carrier ship only. It wouldn't be worth a single point, let alone four. RL is used to hunt targets. And you're not hunting anything with your carrier.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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Can someone tell me why the 1 CV per side per game was lifted in the higher tiers?   It seems like limiting the number of CV's per match would help alleviate some of these problems. 

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1 hour ago, Borla78 said:

3) Radio Locator is too strong for CVs.  Currently a CV player can use Radio Locator while flying a squadron and immediately go in a straight line to the nearest ship.  This is particularly strong in the late game.

Solution : Radio Locator should only show the direction of the nearest ship from the CV itself.  If a CV is controlling a squadron, the directional locator should reflect only the RDF location from the ship, not the planes.

 

Holy crap Radio location works on squadrons? I didn't even try that.

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22 minutes ago, temp1ar said:

Can someone tell me why the 1 CV per side per game was lifted in the higher tiers?   It seems like limiting the number of CV's per match would help alleviate some of these problems. 

That is something I thought about including.  Obviously the 2-3 per side is for queue times.  It would be good if, once the newness wears off, they go to 1 CV per side.  Or at least 1 CV per side from T6 and up.  Obviously making the CVs mirror each other in tier.

 

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23 minutes ago, temp1ar said:

Can someone tell me why the 1 CV per side per game was lifted in the higher tiers?   It seems like limiting the number of CV's per match would help alleviate some of these problems. 

I think a limit of 1 CV per side would do away with 80% of the rabble rousing. 2 carriers has always sucked, but you rarely saw 2 CVs outside of T4/T5, and rarely saw any in T7+. Now it's 2 carriers in every match, which sucks.  

I think WG should give the new CV players one month to grind and help figure out balance, then limit to 1 CV per side. Yes, the CV player queues would get long, but even after the rework they're still in the minority. Multiple CVs per side over multiple patches is going to annoy way more players than just CVs. 

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1 hour ago, DouglasMacAwful said:

I think a limit of 1 CV per side would do away with 80% of the rabble rousing. 2 carriers has always sucked, but you rarely saw 2 CVs outside of T4/T5, and rarely saw any in T7+. Now it's 2 carriers in every match, which sucks.  

I think WG should give the new CV players one month to grind and help figure out balance, then limit to 1 CV per side. Yes, the CV player queues would get long, but even after the rework they're still in the minority. Multiple CVs per side over multiple patches is going to annoy way more players than just CVs. 

A month is probably longer than necessary.  They could do it in a micropatch this weekend or early next week.  Even with extra people playing CVs queue times shouldn't be too awful.  Worst case make it so that it can make an exception to the 1v1 CV rule if a CV has been in queue for more than 4 mins.

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