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Nurhaal

Level headed Feedback on the patch

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EEK GADS! It's another CV thread! 

I didn't see a sticky in the general sections that was for feed back, so I figured I'd beat a dead horse here and make my own. I'll be to the point.

Setup: I don't have much. Just low tier access. For high tier access, I have to watch others and get their POVs.

First impressions: Honestly going in, I started to have high hopes because when I heard they delayed the patch for a bit longer and made another balance pass on AA in the PT; I was expecting a rework that'd make a believer out of me. I had only watched those videos on the PT rework and had concluded that perhaps AA is way too strong now, but they'll balance it back.So, going in? I knew or expected AA to shred me. 

My experience though was not how I expected. The new control scheme just does not feel as good as it looks. It does look good, even when dead? I mean it's awesome watching dive bombers of another CV player actually drop bombs; it's pretty cinematic now. But the gameplay? Oh my gawds... it's horrible. TO ME, anyways, it's absolutely horrible. I did not expect it to be so bad IMO; I was actually looking forward to this idea of "trench runs" with flak all around me; i was seriously turning positive about this patch but... some how? This does not pull it off. Why?

  • Controls are not dialed in. They're clunky as all hell and if you're putting in a lot of inputs per second, the UI still lags. This was the same problem that lead to the RTS version being so unpopular - you fought the game's UI as much as the other team.
  • Flying actually feels like you're driving a Marry Poppins DDs where you can only ALL RUDDER or NO RUDDER, there's no in-between
  • Dive Bomber reticle and even the Rocket reticles are not properly lined up with the static grey ones - makes learning initially a chore since the game's UI doesn't even seem to be dialed in yet
  • There's no lead projector on the torpedo flight despite the squadron feeling like a DD in some respects. I don't mind this that much but seriously while flying? It can be difficult to tell the target speed to a point
  • My engine boost key doesn't work. Why the hell release the patch if crapdon't work? Maybe low tiers are not supposed to have it?
  • Do I really have to press "F" to pay respects after my whole squadron is spent or destroyed? You really should take that last step and just remove it; it's awfully annoying. You should only be asked to press "F" when you're forcing you flight back and they're still loaded.
  • I cannot change my CVs speed unless I land every fighter. I can change direction but I cannot control throttle. wth? This means that at game start; I can set half speed but this patch has brought out so many lemmings (and of course, co-op) that a DD will find it's way in the back field within minutes. I can turn and run but... not accelerate unless I land. What in the hell...

Now for the nitty gritty:

  • Very low damage per pass makes every single pass feel very deflating. There is some level of effort to line up every pass, it engages you a lot more than a camping BB, but you get no/little reward for the effort a lot of the time.
  • Dodging AA is not as gripping as I thought, simply banking slowly (tapping the key so you take wider turns) makes you dodge almost all AA at range. At close range, it feels impossible to dodge AA because you're flight is so wide... 
  • If you stay inside the inner AA bubble during your pass, your flight's HP goes down general for all aircraft, leading to a snow ball effect where a single flak poof will wipe out your entire squadron. Really annoying.
  • As a result, the best way to play is to pre-plan your attack path, approach at a good vector, drop, then just disengage, reset the engagement vector and try again from about the same distance you approached the first time. This is very slow...
  • This makes attack timings VERY VERY LONG, I can be engaged on a target with a single squadron for up to 60 seconds or MORE and for the damage you get? THAT'S PATHETIC.
  • By far to me, the most entertaining squadron type was the rocket type. The rockets were easy to aim and attacks felt fast and engaging. Torpedo dropping was actually very boring and at first, you miss a lot until you get good idea on lead. Dive bombing and torping are RNG fests either way, at least at low Tier. Both allow you to counter the RNG by staying on target longer without moving (dodging), however doing so leads to the snow ball effect mentioned above. 
  • Low tier is so un-fun that I'll just ignore CVs still. I'd rather play the RTS version than this mode. Things may get better but from what I saw at the higher tiers? Not really. Unless you have a Graf Zepp and dive bombing RNG favors you, I've never seen a CV break the above 4th place on the player rankings. Most always in the bottom 4 actually. 
  • Having the low tiers so god awful is just insane - you're now forcing players to go through 2 full tiers of grind with that terrible level of game play, that's not going to attract ANYONE but the one's already willing to push through it anyway. 

That said, I think of the terrible feeling over all for the patch is also due to the fact that a lot of people who abandoned the game for 1 to 2 years came back for this rework. On the in-game chats, they're immediately quitting. I must remind everyone that these players are so out of practice that not only are they not happy (in general) but they play like utter potatoes as well. I've had some very strange matches and I think that's one of the reasons why Co-op is suddenly seeing so many losses.

I know CV performance is so low that it's like not having a player slot in that CV, but in Co-op? Dude, no... most of us should easily 1v2 or more bots. I'm seeing people on normal surface ships lose to bots while outnumber that bots on their own flank. It's that bad.

I'd give it two weeks for the hype to die down and perhaps we will see less potatoes than we see here at launch. I also think that this needs to be taken in consideration for the balance as well. While I find CVs to be abysmal, I'm hoping WG takes proper precautions on the balance passes since the hype crowd is throwing off the numbers hard right now. 

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Thank you for putting this together!  We appreciate the detail and I'll ensure the team gets this feedback.  

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22 minutes ago, Nurhaal said:

 

  • Controls are not dialed in. They're clunky as all hell and if you're putting in a lot of inputs per second, the UI still lags. This was the same problem that lead to the RTS version being so unpopular - you fought the game's UI as much as the other team.
  • The reason I like WOWS is that it's a bit slower-paced than many FPS games. The new plane controls, at least in the attack run, require quicker reactions and more hand-eye coordination than the rest of the game does. While this may be OK for the younger players, WG needs to remember that the average age of WOWS players is nearly 40.
  •  
  • Flying actually feels like you're driving a Marry Poppins DDs where you can only ALL RUDDER or NO RUDDER, there's no in-between
  • I agree with you here -- there need to be more subtlety to the AD controls. They are way too exaggerated.
  •  
  • Dive Bomber reticle and even the Rocket reticles are not properly lined up with the static grey ones - makes learning initially a chore since the game's UI doesn't even seem to be dialed in yet
  • You have to maneuver your squadron to line them up, this is how a head's-up targeting system works.
  •  
  • There's no lead projector on the torpedo flight despite the squadron feeling like a DD in some respects. I don't mind this that much but seriously while flying? It can be difficult to tell the target speed to a point
  • Planes have never had one of these, though auto-drop used to track the ship for you.
  •  
  • My engine boost key doesn't work. Why the hell release the patch if crapdon't work? Maybe low tiers are not supposed to have it?
  • Don't you just press "W" -- it works for me. If it doesn't check to see if there is a crumb or some lint under the key cap. I'm not being facetious here, I have this problem quite frequently.
  •  
  • Do I really have to press "F" to pay respects after my whole squadron is spent or destroyed? You really should take that last step and just remove it; it's awfully annoying. You should only be asked to press "F" when you're forcing you flight back and they're still loaded.
  • The "F" key can be used to quickly get another squadron up and flying. I find that a decimated squadron isn't going to do much damage anyway, so why hang around. If they are all gone, however, you are right -- the view should automatically go back to the CV.
  •  
  • I cannot change my CVs speed unless I land every fighter. I can change direction but I cannot control throttle. wth? This means that at game start; I can set half speed but this patch has brought out so many lemmings (and of course, co-op) that a DD will find it's way in the back field within minutes. I can turn and run but... not accelerate unless I land. What in the hell...
  • The lack of CV control while squadrons are in the air annoys me too. It's like the ship's captain is leading the squadron personally and everyone back on the CV is afraid to do anything while he is gone.

 

 

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Unfortunately they are trying to "balance" unbalancing, how to understand? Can not understand.

Very uncomfortable gameplay, infinite planes with few possibilities of attacks.

Attacks are effective when other aircraft carriers come together on a single target, but are "disproportionate" to the point that the combined attack is totally unfair.

Controls: Many command problems, sometimes spin around the ship and become unmanageable, because of this you lose all the planes.

There are many planes per game, because there are more than one per team, the destroyers avoid the catch areas because of so many planes. Consequently, everyone recoils and the gameplay comes back and be with before.

It is undeniable that the rework does not please most players, even those who do not play with the aircraft carriers can perceive the problematic they are causing and the tendency is to worsen, both for those who like them and for those who hate them.

If it was to balance, I say that they succeeded in "injustice" with everyone, since both are generally dissatisfied. In this you have managed to effectively balance the two sides.

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Yeah I tried the tier 4s and 6s in training room and coop and agree the tier 4s in particular are terrible to play.  I also agree with the grey aim thing is just so bad.  It might be okay at higher tiers when planes are faster but for the tier 4s I could start a dive bomb run when the grey reticle was literally ON the target and I would have to use the engine boost to accelerate the attack run to have any hope of hitting even stationary ships in a training room.  If you are going to have a reticle like that it should at least be able to give an idea of when to attack a stationary target.  As of now it just seems like misleading UI.

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You put into words a lot of things I've been feeling, better than I probably could have.

Just to add on my own...

  • It feels like WG still wants to make the skill ceiling high enough that only the best players will be able to do much with CVs. Which... seems to defeat the point of reworking, if it's less accessible than the old RTS mode
  • I finally figured out the janky divebombing interface! ....Still a lot of RNG, but when I finally get that citadel I do... 6k damage (t8)?
  • Torp runs with enormous lead, and that you can't course correct once you've started or you get that extremely wide spread. But finally find an oblivious target and get a hit! ...for 3k damage at tier 8...?

Like Nurhaal said, a CV doesn't feel like it has parity with a BB slot even in coop. I've even heard of some people running secondary builds on their T10 CVs and getting better results that way. I wouldn't be surprised if a KM BB that never fired its main battery and relied only on secondaries got more results than CVs right now.

In short, the risk/effort-reward feels very undertuned right now.

Lastly, AA. Some AA feels OK. Some AA annihilates entire squadrons for daring to brush against a single flak puff (this is with the skills to increase plane HP and armor). Some captains are noting CVs can't approach them even without any AA build modules or skills. Definitely needs some tuning to bring in the outliers...

My overall thought right now - I'm trying not to rush to hasty judgment, but my first impression hasn't been good at all. I'm tempted to sell back my CVs. But I'll wait till probably the last day or two to make that decision. I really hope there's some big improvements in store...

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On the controls, my biggest gripe, I found it extremely obnoxious that your mouse also controls your turn.

So you go to line up your attack with A and D, then the mouse kicks in and throws your aim off slightly.

And then this feature cannot be disabled, so you'll just have to hold down RMB to enter free-look 100% of the time.

Like, okay, I understand that the keyboard controls are clunky, but making minor adjustments with the mouse does not feel good either.

 

And yes, I know that WoWp plays just fine with mouse steering, but I feel that game has more responsive flight controls.

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I think you're dead on. I've mostly been playing surface ships (high tier as well), though I did run out my Saipan and Enterprise.

The UI could be better. As you said, it's either no rudder or all rudder, even with mouse, and trying to put in multiple inputs just screws it up even worse. I think the idea is very good, but it needs work. And yeah, the reticles are messed up. The DBs are the worst, I can't hit anything with them. The attack planes are OK, but that grey reticle doesn't line up with the real one.

The AA vs planes actually seems to be pretty balanced. And the AA mechanics are actually pretty good. Still not a fan of the sector thing, but let's give it some time.

The biggest problem is the strike capacity for CVs. It's pathetic. You get your planes through, and 4 hits gets you 5K damage and no flooding. DBs are a joke, the rocket planes are mostly useful for spotting DDs, damage is also bad. I had a Hakuryu going after my Montana for the whole game. I ignored him, got hit by a few torps and bombs, minimal damage, maybe a fire or two, but no flooding. I mean seriously? He could do nothing to me. Yesterday he could have deleted me in one strike, now he's at best a nuisance. The strike capacity needs a serious buff.

It's obvious WG didn't want CVs to be OP, but right now they're pretty bad IMO. If BBs can just ignore you all game with no consequence, something is wrong. The AA is about right, but after losing planes and getting a good drop off, you're rewarded with squat. So the majority of players see an improvement. But the old players are going to be gone, and no one is going to play CV if the damage stays this low.

I've seen a lot of DD players whining about how the CVs are OP. I've realized that it's not that the new CVs are better at spotting, it's that there are CVs. DDs are used to having no CV. But now CVs are normal, and they aren't used to dealing with planes. I think that's a valid concern. DDs have evolved in a no CV environment, if CVs are going to be the norm, then WG may have to take a look at DDs and see how they're doing. However, right now I think the DDs are coming to grips with the fact that CVs are a part of the game now, and they need to deal with it. They are why less powerful than they were, but still something that needs to be considered. Everyone is adapting, you might have to change the way you play.

The infinite planes vs limited AA mounts seems to be OK. Even after a good hosing with HE I still have most of my mounts. Still have to see how it's going to play out, but it might be a good idea if the heal repaired you AA to some extent.

Overall, it's not bad. WG was careful so that DDs, cruisers, and BBs didn't see a huge change. CVs got shorted as result, but the game wasn't broken. There's a lot of work to be done, and if they want anyone to be playing CV in two weeks, striking power needs a buff. People are complaining, but that's mostly because people hate any change. The DDs will kick and scream because CVs are normal now, but that's not a real problem (maybe down the line changes may be needed).

I knew things were normal when people were complaining in chat about the MM. WG players complaining about MM means nothing has changed too drastically.

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1 hour ago, Nurhaal said:

EEK GADS! It's another CV thread! 

I didn't see a sticky in the general sections that was for feed back, so I figured I'd beat a dead horse here and make my own. I'll be to the point.

Setup: I don't have much. Just low tier access. For high tier access, I have to watch others and get their POVs.

First impressions: Honestly going in, I started to have high hopes because when I heard they delayed the patch for a bit longer and made another balance pass on AA in the PT; I was expecting a rework that'd make a believer out of me. I had only watched those videos on the PT rework and had concluded that perhaps AA is way too strong now, but they'll balance it back.So, going in? I knew or expected AA to shred me. 

My experience though was not how I expected. The new control scheme just does not feel as good as it looks. It does look good, even when dead? I mean it's awesome watching dive bombers of another CV player actually drop bombs; it's pretty cinematic now. But the gameplay? Oh my gawds... it's horrible. TO ME, anyways, it's absolutely horrible. I did not expect it to be so bad IMO; I was actually looking forward to this idea of "trench runs" with flak all around me; i was seriously turning positive about this patch but... some how? This does not pull it off. Why?

  • Controls are not dialed in. They're clunky as all hell and if you're putting in a lot of inputs per second, the UI still lags. This was the same problem that lead to the RTS version being so unpopular - you fought the game's UI as much as the other team.
  • Flying actually feels like you're driving a Marry Poppins DDs where you can only ALL RUDDER or NO RUDDER, there's no in-between
  • Dive Bomber reticle and even the Rocket reticles are not properly lined up with the static grey ones - makes learning initially a chore since the game's UI doesn't even seem to be dialed in yet
  • There's no lead projector on the torpedo flight despite the squadron feeling like a DD in some respects. I don't mind this that much but seriously while flying? It can be difficult to tell the target speed to a point
  • My engine boost key doesn't work. Why the hell release the patch if crapdon't work? Maybe low tiers are not supposed to have it?
  • Do I really have to press "F" to pay respects after my whole squadron is spent or destroyed? You really should take that last step and just remove it; it's awfully annoying. You should only be asked to press "F" when you're forcing you flight back and they're still loaded.
  • I cannot change my CVs speed unless I land every fighter. I can change direction but I cannot control throttle. wth? This means that at game start; I can set half speed but this patch has brought out so many lemmings (and of course, co-op) that a DD will find it's way in the back field within minutes. I can turn and run but... not accelerate unless I land. What in the hell...

Now for the nitty gritty:

  • Very low damage per pass makes every single pass feel very deflating. There is some level of effort to line up every pass, it engages you a lot more than a camping BB, but you get no/little reward for the effort a lot of the time.
  • Dodging AA is not as gripping as I thought, simply banking slowly (tapping the key so you take wider turns) makes you dodge almost all AA at range. At close range, it feels impossible to dodge AA because you're flight is so wide... 
  • If you stay inside the inner AA bubble during your pass, your flight's HP goes down general for all aircraft, leading to a snow ball effect where a single flak poof will wipe out your entire squadron. Really annoying.
  • As a result, the best way to play is to pre-plan your attack path, approach at a good vector, drop, then just disengage, reset the engagement vector and try again from about the same distance you approached the first time. This is very slow...
  • This makes attack timings VERY VERY LONG, I can be engaged on a target with a single squadron for up to 60 seconds or MORE and for the damage you get? THAT'S PATHETIC.
  • By far to me, the most entertaining squadron type was the rocket type. The rockets were easy to aim and attacks felt fast and engaging. Torpedo dropping was actually very boring and at first, you miss a lot until you get good idea on lead. Dive bombing and torping are RNG fests either way, at least at low Tier. Both allow you to counter the RNG by staying on target longer without moving (dodging), however doing so leads to the snow ball effect mentioned above. 
  • Low tier is so un-fun that I'll just ignore CVs still. I'd rather play the RTS version than this mode. Things may get better but from what I saw at the higher tiers? Not really. Unless you have a Graf Zepp and dive bombing RNG favors you, I've never seen a CV break the above 4th place on the player rankings. Most always in the bottom 4 actually. 
  • Having the low tiers so god awful is just insane - you're now forcing players to go through 2 full tiers of grind with that terrible level of game play, that's not going to attract ANYONE but the one's already willing to push through it anyway. 

That said, I think of the terrible feeling over all for the patch is also due to the fact that a lot of people who abandoned the game for 1 to 2 years came back for this rework. On the in-game chats, they're immediately quitting. I must remind everyone that these players are so out of practice that not only are they not happy (in general) but they play like utter potatoes as well. I've had some very strange matches and I think that's one of the reasons why Co-op is suddenly seeing so many losses.

I know CV performance is so low that it's like not having a player slot in that CV, but in Co-op? Dude, no... most of us should easily 1v2 or more bots. I'm seeing people on normal surface ships lose to bots while outnumber that bots on their own flank. It's that bad.

I'd give it two weeks for the hype to die down and perhaps we will see less potatoes than we see here at launch. I also think that this needs to be taken in consideration for the balance as well. While I find CVs to be abysmal, I'm hoping WG takes proper precautions on the balance passes since the hype crowd is throwing off the numbers hard right now. 

your so right. You lunch fly set up lose have your planes get a torp hit and do 4k damage. That is not rewarding.

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1st day ---  Dont want to jump to conclusions but few comments

  • The controls I thought were odd when flying even in PTS.   The issues is I want to steer with A and D keys but the MOUSE also steers.   When I get ready to do a drop this causes the aiming to fight itself and I have to settle down and let it line up.   Hard to explain but having both aim/steer, I catch myself
  • Tier 8 CVs in mostly tier X games is very hard.   Best I did was in Siapan and 53k or so dmg.   its ok, but at Tier X HP levels this is pretty low.   Lots of AA speced ships though with the rework
  • I am only playing tier 8 CVs at the moment.  But when I am high tier playing against tier 6.. their AA is almost to little.  I can fly around it pretty well no worries.   But tier X AA, after first wave strike, i recall my planes.  No way to get a second attach without losing all the planes. 
  • Dropping torps into smoke camping DDs is FANTASTIC!
  • Having a very hard time doing dive bombing.   The torps seem great.    Rockets seem pretty good.   But bombing still feels off. 
  • There is a DELAY, maybe due to lag, when you drop in the final  0.5 of a second before your attack ends.   So you do NOT get your attack off.   I swear this happened a few times.    So WG if you could add maybe a 0.5 of a second after 0 hits to allow the strike to happen that would be great.   Its similar to DDs firing torps when they get killed.  (Which WG fixed in a later patch).    Its that kind of lag issue.   Radar, not sure if I am alone on this one.   I didn't notice it as much in PTS because, because bots to maneuver like players do.   So I am literally down to the final second to drop.  .  @Radar_X

Overall WG happy with the rework.    Yes it will need tweaks.   I would say take your time DO NOT swing with huge massive changes.   Please make them small and constant.   I thin this is a good start though. 

 

Edited by deresistance

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Constructive feedback, some from co-op. I abandoned randoms early on, being perma-spotted as a DD is no fun

 - The 30 second MM limit is killing co-op. I am playing DDs, and I jump in the quue and find myself immediately in battle. On my teams are invariably 1 or 2 CVs and some bots. The opposing team has BBs in place of CVs. This whole setup is a problem. You see, green bots are looking for ways to return to the collective. They die stupidly and early, always have. Red bots are much smarter. 

It's a problem now because you find yourself outnumbered by 3 or 4 ships every match, they outgun from the start, and the CV players aren't pulling their weight. I'm not knocking them, it's brand new. But people are seeing 50% win rates, and I think this could be all solved by relaxing the queue timer 15 seconds, so the teams are filled with players.  

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True. a problem. It will take WAY MORE than 15secs added to the queue timer. Also, CVs can NO LONGER pull their weight. So u are spot on, it's one or two CV drivers and YOU vs the Red Team. Giving the Red equal tiered BBs is Overcompensating as No CV can do more than 25% HP damage per attack to those BBs with this patch/rework/SNAFU. Feel good though. I went 5 losses in row in Co Op in my CVs....and just gave up.

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Yeah the damage per hit is annoyingly low. I'd definitely take fewer passes for increased damage on dive-bombers at least, because a CITADEL hit with an AP bomb should do more than an equal-tier battleship's standard "penetration" hit.

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Strike power is definitely too low for new CV's. I understand that the old RTS CV's had too much strike power potential, but the current new CV's are placed on the opposite side of the spectrum that it's just pitiful. Because landing bombs and torps (especially bombs) are so hard now, they really need just a little boost, for when they do manage some hits. Rockets are even more pitiful in damage output, but they're at least not as hard as other two to land some hits. Still, I feel like rockets need something too-- maybe a better fire chance? I thought the rockets were supposed to be the new HE shells for CV's, but it doesn't feel that way to me at all.

Coop is a hot mess right now, due to aforementioned imbalance with MM by the bot BB's being the counterpart for any CV's on human team. If any bot(s) break through the rest of the team, the CV can't do jack to stop them, because of the also aforementioned overall damage output and the probable hit chance with strikes being too low.

Best I managed today was 3rd place on my team in my Ryujo, but that's more of a luck, me thinks. I still had to work my bottoms off to land as many rockets/torps/bombs as I can.

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Jesus the damage per hit is pathetic. If the planes werent made of paper it'd be more tolerable, but given that every ship seems to have a free infinite defensive AA now (good work on that one, just what a plane based update needed lmbo) you bleed planes before you're anywhere near the first drop, let alone being able to use several drops.

 

The concept is better than I was expecting. It's genuinely fun to use when it works. In practice, it's awful. I cant even give a proper reviewing of it because my planes die so fast I'm not fully experiencing it.

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2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

The reason I like WOWS is that it's a bit slower-paced than many FPS games. The new plane controls, at least in the attack run, require quicker reactions and more hand-eye coordination than the rest of the game does. While this may be OK for the younger players, WG needs to remember that the average age of WOWS players is nearly 40.

The RTS mode IMO was better for that point and click at lower APM. The only reason why the APM requirement was so high before was because of the manual drops and strafes, two skills that really didn't need to be in the game at all. if those two things were removed, a lot of the complaints at higher tier cross dropping would be reduced. 

I know this brings out the issue of the perma-scouting and spotting power but I've said in many other debates that there are over 25+ years of RTSs and RTTs that utulize Host/Parasite unit types that work just fine. Adding a simple flight or fuel timer to squadrons would solve so much of the balance issues of the old RTS setup; this was a very commonly used mechanic in RTS games that used CV type units. Instead they opted to a reboot that has the CV play almost more console friendly; like it's probably smoother to play this with my PS4 controller. 

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

You have to maneuver your squadron to line them up, this is how a head's-up targeting system works.

I do but if you'll notice, the grey reticle you use to line up the shot does NOT match the green one that appears once you commit to the attack run.This is so problematic on the lower tier planes. I had to walk through my buddies every time when showing them how to play the CV; telling them that it's easier to dive bomb going at the BOW of the ship since the ACTUAL bombing sight is well behind the grey static one.

 

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Planes have never had one of these, though auto-drop used to track the ship for you.

They never had them but yes, would auto lead. My feedback is suggesting that since the planes now feel more like a DD, and your perspective is completely different now? A lead indicator would be a good QOL. I very rarely get hit by torps, even when two CVs are bombing me at the same time. It's a minor point of contention because I know, as a BB player, you can just learn the lead yourself with enough practice. 

 

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

Don't you just press "W" -- it works for me. If it doesn't check to see if there is a crumb or some lint under the key cap. I'm not being facetious here, I have this problem quite frequently.

Nope, wouldn't work. The actual icon would flash even, but nothing would happen. I dunno' what was going on. Pretty sure the crumb anomaly isn't an issue since my keyboard works fluidly on Overwatch and I can accelerate using W just fine on other boats, even my CV!

 

2 hours ago, Snargfargle said:

The "F" key can be used to quickly get another squadron up and flying. I find that a decimated squadron isn't going to do much damage anyway, so why hang around. If they are all gone, however, you are right -- the view should automatically go back to the CV.

I understand this and it's actually some what of an exploit according to some AA specced players; it's an easy way to bait off Defensive AA.

The issue is that when all fighters are dead or all fighters have dropped their payload and are already en route to RTB, it STILL ASKS ME to Press F just to get back to normal CV control and select my next squadron. In those situations, I'm suggesting that step to be removed because it effectively does absolutely nothing in those situations. 

1 hour ago, Carrier_Ikoma said:

It feels like WG still wants to make the skill ceiling high enough that only the best players will be able to do much with CVs. Which... seems to defeat the point of reworking, if it's less accessible than the old RTS mode

I don't understand this either. Even if so, to me? It's not the imbalanced damage and AA that get's me - I simply find the new mode just not enjoyable to play at all. It's nothing like what I thought it would feel like. It doesn't feel like you're doing clutch trench runs through flak or anything; you're simply a flying DD who's taking secondary weapons fire. That's not cool. 

I dunno' what I was thinking but I think I set myself up to fail here. Clearly, WarGaming has never played Freespace 2. Flying through flak fire and getting knocked around, all while trying to have that torpedo lock dial on, then pulling up just before the shockwave hits you - I have fond memories of games that pull of the whole "fighter craft vs capital ship" SO MUCH BETTER.

I really do prefer the RTS version, even if I sucked at it because I didn't feel like fighting the terrible UI control. I had always hoped that they'd refine that UI, balance the CVs with true and tested RTS mechanics decades old and call it a day. I was SHOCKED to find the rework the way it was but... then I had hope. I had hope that maybe it'd be close to Battle Stations: Pacific or something - games that just, do what the CV rework is trying to do? BUT SO MUCH BETTER. There's no comparing the gameplay of this rework vs other games that just are far better at it. And it seriously bums me out. Even if they do balance the AA and CV damage, I don't think I'll ever find it enjoyable, not in it's current controls and gameplay state. 

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As a player who was "meh" in the old CV system, I can say that as of now I enjoy the rework. I was at the Hiryu, so now because of the update, I'm back at the Ryujo. Others mentioned that the Damage per pass is a tad bit too low as of now, and the attack aircraft can really harass DDs a bit too well. This is due to the quick aiming time where you can quickly circle around and perform quick, accurate attacks in a short period. Perhaps maybe consider a longer aim time for attack aircraft and decrease the overall accuracy of the rockets?  

For the TBs and DBs, I can feel more consistency playing with them, it feels much more consistent with the overall gameplay. A "Game within a game" is cool on paper, but in practice, there are some clear issues. 

I never played CVs in the PTS so my first impressions of it are good. I hope the developers will take their time on decisionmaking with the data they are collecting. 

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1 minute ago, RighteousRhyno said:

A "Game within a game" is cool on paper, but in practice, there are some clear issues. 

The issues were unique to WoWS and WGs Developer ability. Plenty of games meld different game-play modes just fine; so I was hopeful it could be done. Hell there are RTS games that meld FPS into their folds that work fine. There's 4Xs that also meld RTT game-play. So there's always a chance that it would have worked, not just on paper. There's literally decades of such game designs on the market - plenty of inspiration to draw from. 

 

It's good to hear some one is enjoying the new play style though. I cannot accept it at this point; I find the game-play terrible. However, I do understand that for those who were intimidated by the RTS controls, this new game-play maybe right up their alley. RTS definitely isn't for everyone; and I'm saying that as an AVID RTS player. 

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4 hours ago, Radar_X said:

Thank you for putting this together!  We appreciate the detail and I'll ensure the team gets this feedback.  

@Radar_X this post also describes the top tier perfectly most games im happy to  break 70k lucky if i get a 100k game. Certain ships like the Mino are severally over powered with its AA. Lemmings are also really bad allowing dds even BBs to completely flank around leaving the cv or cvs completely defenseless.  If that isnt the issue im seeing such passive gameplay that people are too afraid to push. It's a new meta and all but this isnt going to be healthy for the games life if this is the new norm.

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18 hours ago, Wombatmetal said:

It's a problem now because you find yourself outnumbered by 3 or 4 ships every match, they outgun from the start, and the CV players aren't pulling their weight. I'm not knocking them, it's brand new. But people are seeing 50% win rates, and I think this could be all solved by relaxing the queue timer 15 seconds, so the teams are filled with players.  

We've been asking for this for three years. So you can be certain it will never be done. 

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I think there is potential here for one important reason is that the mode as is does not allow one CV player to lock down the other with skill.  The fighters seem a bit inconsequential and it seems like each CV player can play his/her own game without being completely out skilled/shut down by the single opponent on the enemy team.  While you can still suck and someone can still be good, the same goes for a good DD versus a bad DD on the other team. I think it's less detrimental.

For me in the games I've played.  The two tier spread is super unbalanced.  I was unlucky enough to get a tier 10 match in the Saipan and basically I did 1400 damage.  I had pretty much every squad wiped out before I could finish my run. The only damage was I managed to hit a grozovoi with some rockets early match.. but then next time I flew over him he smoke my entire squadron in the blink of an eye.  This was not a fun experience, and I don't want to play a ship I paid for now, at all, based on that result.

I'd agree on most of the OPs thoughts.  The AA needs tweaking because as is some ships are over powered AF.  The damage you do deliver once you line up in underwhelming and pointless.

 

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19 minutes ago, MONKEYBOMBS1945 said:

@Radar_X this post also describes the top tier perfectly most games im happy to  break 70k lucky if i get a 100k game. Certain ships like the Mino are severally over powered with its AA. Lemmings are also really bad allowing dds even BBs to completely flank around leaving the cv or cvs completely defenseless.  If that isnt the issue im seeing such passive gameplay that people are too afraid to push. It's a new meta and all but this isnt going to be healthy for the games life if this is the new norm.

I really dont think it's the new norm. I think a lot of old players came back and they're so rusty and out of practice that they potato worse than usual. After the hype dies down, I think we will see some real meta develop. I'm giving it two weeks. In-game chat shows that those returning players are hopping in and then leaving in droves pretty fast. Theres usually one guy who seems to like it though; but over all the in-game chat matches the recent poll where most seem unhappy with how the CVs play right now and want the old ones back.

I think most are only unhappy with the balance though, and that's good. That's easily fixable. For my concnerns? I hated how the CV PLAYED. I did NOT like how the planes flew, controlled, the feeling itself, it was VERY BORING or it was VERY FRUSTRATING because the controls are bad/sloppy/ill-conceived. The game play just doesn't work for me when other games do it so much better. For those like me; I don't think WG can make this mode work. I think I'm gong to sign out of CVs altogether. Most others seemed just hung up on the OP AA or lack of Damage done, things like that - if that's all that's pissing people off? I have good news - Balans!!! it will come!

For folks like me though? I'll just have to let CVs go. It is what it is. 

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I have been playing CV games in Training Room to learn and get the feel for the various controls. Contrary to what others have said, I love it. I use the keys to get me there, the mouse to fine tune my approach. So far, for me it works. Started with static targets, then went to moving. It is readily apparent that there will be some very good tactics to come from this in time. Now granted I have only played in TR, but this is what I have experienced so far. However, like many others, I must agree with being able to control the ship while planes are in the air. This really should be added ASAP. Also, Im not terribly crazy about the automatic nature of damage control and defensive fighters, Id rather do that myself.

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First I barely played the old CV. I tried for a couple of games and was immediately frustrated with the UI and that I couldn't even get the torps to drop where I wanted - overall a terrible experience for what could have been a nice change of pace.
But the problems were never addressed and so we now have the new one.

The new:
I couldn't find the time to play it yet, but I watched some streams yesterday (Flambass) who really disliked it. ^^°
I have a lot of games under my belt as well and from what I saw it felt like a good base to start from and I agree with what was written before, that DDs are just not used to constant CVs. (doesn' t mean that it doesn't need changes)
I remember early days when there was CV imbalance or 2 Cvs constantly, usually, 1 DD tried to assassinate the CV and everyone was really careful around the caps.

What changed for a DD ?
0 CV - duh
1CV - spotting over 1 Cap (we can still have multiple caps/DDs) and no more 1 shot potential (at least on non T10 Cvs)
2CVs - more spotting but usually over different caps, focus potential (very rare outside of teams/divs) They can basically do what 1 CV was capable of before the patch.
3Cvs- I think 3 Cvs might be overkill, but we will see

Right now it is basically the PBE out there. A lot of AA only specs, old players coming back without any skills ^^° nobody really knows what they are doing (so don't expect big dmg numbers on Cvs after 1 day please)
Sadly this will have to normalize first before it cools down so far that we can judge it more easily. We want Cvs to have high dmg potential while still allowing enough space for players to pick something else then Aa builds constantly...
We will see where this goes, but right now it is a mess. ^^

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I can summarize this way.

 

Wargaming, you broke game play by fixing something that wasn't broken in the first place.  If you really needed to make adjustments to carriers simply removing the fighter strafe mechanic (returning a carrier mechanic to what it once was) would have removed a significant barrier to players deciding to stick with carriers.  Simply put, having squadrons evaporate at a single mouse click of your opponent was a poor decision on your part.

 

Playing games with ship AA mechanics is not appreciated either; experiencing an AA-spec Massachusetts be rick-rolled by tier 6 carriers (and not shoot down a single attacking plane all game) is a significant issue.

 

Please give strong consideration to returning CV play and AA mechanics to where they were and make adjustments to CV play that drives players away from CV's.  What you have done here will likely not only drive players away from CV's but from the game as well.

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