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soko99

RIP Torp Boat DDs

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Well, guess IJN torp boats are going to be mothballed.  WG in it's wisdom decided to fix the radar OP issue with the following.  6s delay for all ships before the target is rendered, but of course they fixed that by giving every ship 5s more radar duration. So essentially this gave the DD an extra 1s to deal with the radar. That will sure fix that radar issue right WG?  oh but wait.  they also "standardized" the ranges, meaning that every ship got a buff to range (except belfast) at most just .1km which is pretty much that 1s that your DD had "gained" in this fix of radar. 

 

Then comes the hammer.. flooding changes.  (less duration, less damage). You can cause more than 1 flooding now, 2 to the bow and 2 to the stern but, according to WGs own calculations 3 torpedo hits worth of full floodings will still not cause 2/3 the damage of a single torpedo before. Meaning, that the anemic torp hit ratio of the ridiculously visible japanese torpedo's will be even less effective in dealing with ships as it already was. 

 

So WG.  can I assume that you will be removing the IJN torp line and reimbursing doubloons and free xp? Or are you going to give back IJN it's stealthy torpedoes and reduce torpedo cooldowns?

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Makes you wonder if this is a move to counter the multiple strike capability of the reworked CVs.

If anything, I hope they compensate this with an increased alpha strike for the non-gunboat DDs who need it.

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I expect there will be a flood of CVs immediately after the patch.  There can be 2 (or is it 3) per match now, which will basically eliminate the stealth of DDs.  Since each squadron has RPF.  Coupled with the changes to flooding and radar, DDs are getting bent over and shown no mercy.  The enormous buff to DDs due to the AP changes will be inconsequential now. 

Gonna wait and see how this CV rework plays out, but I expect it will not be well received by the bulk of players once they have to deal with it.

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4 minutes ago, Ace_04 said:

Makes you wonder if this is a move to counter the multiple strike capability of the reworked CVs.

Definitely. It is a nerf to DDs but to compensate DD torps are no longer spotted by aircraft (including floatplanes) which might improve hit rates. May be a wash. Other posters have speculated that it may actually increase flooding damage as ships won't always hit repair as soon as they get a flood.

The 6 second delay sounded like a huge DD buff when announced, but the changes to some radars (Russian mostly) will negate this. So it may be a wash also.

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Once again I will scream.

CVs need to be removed from the game. You cannot balance them with gun and torpedo ships.

You fix one issue and you raise another.

Get rid of the broken mechanic.

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11 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

Since each squadron has RPF. 

Each CAN have RPF. Just like all ships CAN have RPF. Most don't take it as there are other valuable 4-point skills. Most don't even have it on their DDs. Remains to be seen how valuable CV drivers think it is. I was one that thought it would be everywhere when the skill was first proposed. Turns out there is some stiff competition amongst T4 skills. If RPF was a 1-pt skill, (almost) everyone would have it.

Edited by Sabot_100

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20 minutes ago, soko99 said:

Well, guess IJN torp boats are going to be mothballed.  WG in it's wisdom decided to fix the radar OP issue with the following.  6s delay for all ships before the target is rendered, but of course they fixed that by giving every ship 5s more radar duration. So essentially this gave the DD an extra 1s to deal with the radar. That will sure fix that radar issue right WG?  oh but wait.  they also "standardized" the ranges, meaning that every ship got a buff to range (except belfast) at most just .1km which is pretty much that 1s that your DD had "gained" in this fix of radar. 

 

Then comes the hammer.. flooding changes.  (less duration, less damage). You can cause more than 1 flooding now, 2 to the bow and 2 to the stern but, according to WGs own calculations 3 torpedo hits worth of full floodings will still not cause 2/3 the damage of a single torpedo before. Meaning, that the anemic torp hit ratio of the ridiculously visible japanese torpedo's will be even less effective in dealing with ships as it already was. 

 

So WG.  can I assume that you will be removing the IJN torp line and reimbursing doubloons and free xp? Or are you going to give back IJN it's stealthy torpedoes and reduce torpedo cooldowns?

Me, as a BB player, starts dancing an singing... "I found the dd main!"

 

Yes, DDs are getting pushed around. Sure by your math on a few ships, DDs have 1 extra second to deal with radar... However, you have 6 seconds where you know you are radared and only have to deal with one ship, often the ones that will only fire off one salvo in that time. 6 seconds you can get up to speed and get undetected, or if your close, get to cover. Like it or not full speed DDs even at mid range actively maneuvering are hard to hit. The torpedoes are a big hit I will admit. Maybe WG wants to force them to a support role, and similar to carriers, remove that huge alpha strike capability. We will never know. And if history repeats itself, we will have a large mass of DD mains complaining about it.

 

However DDs have gotten some love too. Arms race is all but catering to destroyers, so next ranked season DDs are set. Also the overpen mechanics. Battleships cant really dev strike a DD anymore. I can agree the 10k dmg pens at 7km were a bit ridiculous, but it was nice to be able to shotgun the yoloers


 

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Each CAN have RPF. Just like all ships CAN have RPF. Most don't take it as there are other valuable 4-point skills. Most don't even have it on their DDs. Remains to be seen how valuable CV drivers think it is.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but aren't CVs immune to RPF?

Isn't it ironic that a class that doesn't feel the sting of a skill can use it to advantage?

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27 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Forgive me if I am wrong, but aren't CVs immune to RPF?

I haven't seen this anywhere. They are immune in the fact that they are rarely the closest ship to any red ship until late in the game. It would actually be an early warning to a CV to see the "Located" warning come up so they know they are the closest ship to some enemy boat and need to move.

WG has made CVs pretty much immune to their counterparts (fighters and AA) to eliminate CV sniping. This insures they spend their time making the rest of us miserable.

 

Edited by Sabot_100
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Wait a minute! I thought the sky already fell for DD's:

  1. when open water stealth firing was killed off
  2. and then it fell again when radar was introduced
  3. now it's gonna fall again???

How many times must the sky fall to have really fallen?

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12 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Each CAN have RPF. Just like all ships CAN have RPF. Most don't take it as there are other valuable 4-point skills. Most don't even have it on their DDs. Remains to be seen how valuable CV drivers think it is. I was one that thought it would be everywhere when the skill was first proposed. Turns out there is some stiff competition amongst T4 skills. If RPF was a 1-pt skill, (almost) everyone would have it.

That is true, but having RPF on a DD moving at 35 kts trying to find someone and on a Plane moving at 180 kts is completely different.  On a ship, you may not see the target indicated by the RPF for several minutes or even longer.  With the plane, they could find the target in 30 seconds or less.

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4 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

I haven't seem this anywhere. They are immune in the fact that they are rarely the closest ship to any red ship until late in the game. It would actually be an early warning to a CV to see the "Located" warning come up so they know they are the closest ship to some enemy boat and need to move.

WG has made CVs pretty much immune to their counterparts (fighters and AA) to eliminate CV sniping. This insures they spend their time making the rest of us miserable. 

 

My bad. I read the skill and under the old system they can't use it, not that they are immune to it.

I guess under the new system they can use it.

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2 minutes ago, Khafni said:

Wait a minute! I thought the sky already fell for DD's:

  1. when open water stealth firing was killed off
  2. and then it fell again when radar was introduced
  3. now it's gonna fall again???

How many times must the sky fall to have really fallen?

There have been several kicks in the groin but the DD players keep getting up and limping on hoping WG won't do it again.

1. Many DD players were in favor of removing OWSF. I know I was. Only certain DDs could really use it anyway.

                  1a. You forgot RPF. I did think RPF would be much more common than it is.

2. Huge kick in the groin. DD play has become much more passive. Almost impossible when the US line-split happened and radar was everywhere. There are still battles where it completely neuters DD play. There seem to a lot less DDs per match than there were.

3. The expected buff has come with some huge downsides which may make #2 even worse. Jury is still out.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Prothall said:

I guess under the new system they can use it.

I assume it will work for wherever they are. If running a squadron, the squadron will have it. If running the CV, they will see it there.

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21 minutes ago, SeaborneSumo said:

That is true, but having RPF on a DD moving at 35 kts trying to find someone and on a Plane moving at 180 kts is completely different.  On a ship, you may not see the target indicated by the RPF for several minutes or even longer.  With the plane, they could find the target in 30 seconds or less.

This is an excellent point.  I will say as a small counter point that IIRC, CV planes in the rework are so fast that they can probably scout nearly the entire map in a very short time even without the Radio Location skill.  So, it may be that having RL on a CV is sort of superfluous in the long run.

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1 hour ago, _1204_ said:

Me, as a BB player, starts dancing an singing... "I found the dd main!"

 

Yes, DDs are getting pushed around. Sure by your math on a few ships, DDs have 1 extra second to deal with radar... However, you have 6 seconds where you know you are radared and only have to deal with one ship, often the ones that will only fire off one salvo in that time. 6 seconds you can get up to speed and get undetected, or if your close, get to cover. Like it or not full speed DDs even at mid range actively maneuvering are hard to hit. The torpedoes are a big hit I will admit. Maybe WG wants to force them to a support role, and similar to carriers, remove that huge alpha strike capability. We will never know. And if history repeats itself, we will have a large mass of DD mains complaining about it.

 

However DDs have gotten some love too. Arms race is all but catering to destroyers, so next ranked season DDs are set. Also the overpen mechanics. Battleships cant really dev strike a DD anymore. I can agree the 10k dmg pens at 7km were a bit ridiculous, but it was nice to be able to shotgun the yoloers


 

If you catch a dd with he already loaded you could devestate them. But unless you are a british bb its rare.  Having played all ship types and regularly playing them.  I get complaints from all sides.  Ie if i play a dd to spot, cap and contest points i find its a thankless job with little reward as sometimes its tough to get damage as opposed to saying screw support and specifically setting up of kills/dmg.  Likewise i get bb players who sometimes feel helpless being singled out and hunted by a dd having no sympathy for dd nerfs.

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1 hour ago, _1204_ said:

Me, as a BB player, starts dancing an singing... "I found the dd main!"

 

Yes, DDs are getting pushed around. Sure by your math on a few ships, DDs have 1 extra second to deal with radar... However, you have 6 seconds where you know you are radared and only have to deal with one ship, often the ones that will only fire off one salvo in that time. 6 seconds you can get up to speed and get undetected, or if your close, get to cover. Like it or not full speed DDs even at mid range actively maneuvering are hard to hit. The torpedoes are a big hit I will admit. Maybe WG wants to force them to a support role, and similar to carriers, remove that huge alpha strike capability. We will never know. And if history repeats itself, we will have a large mass of DD mains complaining about it.

 

However DDs have gotten some love too. Arms race is all but catering to destroyers, so next ranked season DDs are set. Also the overpen mechanics. Battleships cant really dev strike a DD anymore. I can agree the 10k dmg pens at 7km were a bit ridiculous, but it was nice to be able to shotgun the yoloers


 

How come I'm still able to do it?

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High explosive shells or a large number of AP. Small destroyer health pool too. I didnt say it was impossible, its just hard with only overpens.

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2 hours ago, soko99 said:

Well, guess IJN torp boats are going to be mothballed.  WG in it's wisdom decided to fix the radar OP issue with the following.  6s delay for all ships before the target is rendered, but of course they fixed that by giving every ship 5s more radar duration. So essentially this gave the DD an extra 1s to deal with the radar. That will sure fix that radar issue right WG?  oh but wait.  they also "standardized" the ranges, meaning that every ship got a buff to range (except belfast) at most just .1km which is pretty much that 1s that your DD had "gained" in this fix of radar. 

 

Then comes the hammer.. flooding changes.  (less duration, less damage). You can cause more than 1 flooding now, 2 to the bow and 2 to the stern but, according to WGs own calculations 3 torpedo hits worth of full floodings will still not cause 2/3 the damage of a single torpedo before. Meaning, that the anemic torp hit ratio of the ridiculously visible japanese torpedo's will be even less effective in dealing with ships as it already was. 

 

So WG.  can I assume that you will be removing the IJN torp line and reimbursing doubloons and free xp? Or are you going to give back IJN it's stealthy torpedoes and reduce torpedo cooldowns?

Oh, yeah, because the raw damage from torp hits isn't equivalent to getting citadeled by an enemy battleship. And God forbid the destroyer line has to be on the receiving end of a nerf for once. It must be so [edited]hard for you guys, having the lowest detection range of any ship in the game, having the strongest torpedo damage, and now you have to actually git gud? Oh the humanity. And it's amazing, isn't it? All the time we've been saying something needs to be done just to be mocked by the destroyer players, and when WG finally realized it too and takes action, the DD tears flow and suddenly it's doomsday for the entire class. Shocking. 

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2 hours ago, SeaborneSumo said:

There can be 2 (or is it 3) per match now, which will basically eliminate the stealth of DDs.  Since each squadron has RPF.

Only if the player puts RPF on the captain - and that may not be a foregone conclusion.  Watching Farazelleth's Saipan preview, he specced his captain in the video before entering battle, and I don't believe he selected RPF.

But, there can be two CV's now.  Comparing worst cases at tier 4, this means a minimum of six squadrons of aircraft flying per team.  At tier 10, a maximum of sixteen.

That is being reduced in all cases to a maximum of three.  Aren't they also reducing DD visibility from the air?

I haven't played the PTS, so I'm gonna find out on day one like most everyone else, but the argument that CV's after the rework will make DD stealth obsolete doesn't seem to have any logic to it.  Maybe there's something I'm missing, I dunno, but the numbers seem to point pretty solidly in the other direction.

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1 hour ago, Trowa03 said:

Oh, yeah, because the raw damage from torp hits isn't equivalent to getting citadeled by an enemy battleship. And God forbid the destroyer line has to be on the receiving end of a nerf for once. It must be so [edited]hard for you guys, having the lowest detection range of any ship in the game, having the strongest torpedo damage, and now you have to actually git gud? Oh the humanity. And it's amazing, isn't it? All the time we've been saying something needs to be done just to be mocked by the destroyer players, and when WG finally realized it too and takes action, the DD tears flow and suddenly it's doomsday for the entire class. Shocking.  

Wonder how you'd feel if your main guns only hit ~6% of the time and took 2 minutes to reload.   All the while having no heal and 1/5th the health pool.

Edited by soko99

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On 1/25/2019 at 12:10 PM, Khafni said:

Wait a minute! I thought the sky already fell for DD's:

  1. when open water stealth firing was killed off
  2. and then it fell again when radar was introduced
  3. now it's gonna fall again???

How many times must the sky fall to have really fallen?

According to Chinese mythology, Taishang Laojun lives in Lihen Tian, which is above the other thirty-three Heavens.

So... the sky needs to fall about 30-31 more times I reckon.

BTW since there's only 18 layers of Hell, Chinese mythology places the mortal world as solidly below average.

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On 1/25/2019 at 11:26 AM, soko99 said:

Well, guess IJN torp boats are going to be mothballed.  WG in it's wisdom decided to fix the radar OP issue with the following.  6s delay for all ships before the target is rendered, but of course they fixed that by giving every ship 5s more radar duration. So essentially this gave the DD an extra 1s to deal with the radar. That will sure fix that radar issue right WG?  oh but wait.  they also "standardized" the ranges, meaning that every ship got a buff to range (except belfast) at most just .1km which is pretty much that 1s that your DD had "gained" in this fix of radar. 

 

Then comes the hammer.. flooding changes.  (less duration, less damage). You can cause more than 1 flooding now, 2 to the bow and 2 to the stern but, according to WGs own calculations 3 torpedo hits worth of full floodings will still not cause 2/3 the damage of a single torpedo before. Meaning, that the anemic torp hit ratio of the ridiculously visible japanese torpedo's will be even less effective in dealing with ships as it already was. 

 

So WG.  can I assume that you will be removing the IJN torp line and reimbursing doubloons and free xp? Or are you going to give back IJN it's stealthy torpedoes and reduce torpedo cooldowns?

Exceeeeept that CE has been leveled, so while a DD vs DD fight won't change, you'll be seeing those cruisers, carriers and battleships just a hair sooner.  Might not be much, but it's an edge.

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On 1/25/2019 at 11:15 AM, Trowa03 said:

Oh, yeah, because the raw damage from torp hits isn't equivalent to getting citadeled by an enemy battleship. And God forbid the destroyer line has to be on the receiving end of a nerf for once. It must be so [edited]hard for you guys, having the lowest detection range of any ship in the game, having the strongest torpedo damage, and now you have to actually git gud? Oh the humanity. And it's amazing, isn't it? All the time we've been saying something needs to be done just to be mocked by the destroyer players, and when WG finally realized it too and takes action, the DD tears flow and suddenly it's doomsday for the entire class. Shocking. 

And when BB/CA main armament hits at a server average of around 7% just like torps, and has a reload of anything from 40 seconds to 2 minutes just like torps, and have average survival rates on par with DDs at almost every tier, you might have a point. Otherwise you're just demonstrating a shocking lack of awareness of other classes. Which, I mean, you're a BB main, so that figures.

Edited by Harathan
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Don't mothball 'em yet gents.

 

Those of us running torpedo reload booster may have to learn how to use smoke again.   It's handy to pop when  aircraft introduce themselves... Go old school stealthy and just leave the AA off and watch your distance.   Good news is that Aircraft no longer see torpedo's.  Period.  SO no air warning about your outgoing mail.  

The Gunboat line how ever.. do the AA spec.   Don't argue, don't really spend any brain cells on it.. go whole hog now, you can always tweak it a little bit later.

My best plane kill humbers is 29 in the HSF Harekaze..  Akizuki, Kitakaze, Harugumo should all potentially do far better as they all have more Long AA, and far more short and intermediate range AA.   And HArekaze can still be a torp boat.  In a way she kinda go buffed and I'd say the same for all the IJN Gunboat line.

Also lately few DD's in play over all...  Seen an awful lot of battles last few days where I was the only DD.  In high tier especially yolo or even semi yolo or solitary DD play is very very risky.  The CV Players are figuring out what they can do and it's rather quite a bit.   

Also.. To hell with caps.. the only way to get into caps safe is to win the air war and that take AA and more then just what one DD can bring... Any DD though the OJN 10cm club is way nastier and more consistent.  However even the most awesome of Destroyer AA is, in the end is still only a DD.  If the carrier wants you, and he's willing to push it, it's in the hands of luck rng and a small bit of skill and paying attention on the part of the CV.  And if there are 2 CV and they come after your DD at the same time, I'm expecting an empty spot on the ocean.  Of course this is different from the old CV meta how?  Method may be different, but the results are just as certain.   So cap with out supporting ships taking the risk with you.. well once in a while you'll get lucky but you'll be doing more cutting the throttle and staying closer to the larger ships if your smart.  If your team cannot find thiers brass bell, and give it a victory ring, you aren't likely to be able to save em.    So yes life is suddenly more elusive for we DD drivers kinda.. sorta.. yes and no.   We an still do things the bigger ships cannot.  

Earlier today I has a whopper of a battle on Whiskys Gaming Lounge live stream.    So ya ya, there is a record of it.   I also has some gawd awful bad luck in some matches to.   So your not totally helpless out there and you still have a good job you can do in DD's but we all need to get more cautious. 

Now.  Things that only you as a torpedo specialist can do.

Ships are clumping more and gravitating toward overlapping AA bubbles.. and not just the long range AA but getting overlap into mid range  (3.5 Km).  Higher tier especially as they have all seen CV's pop and drop a lone BB or Cruiser by now.. they expect to see DD's get blapped and they are however most of the blapping is coming at the guns of surface ships.

Typically the Radar ships, especially the American Radar ships are also AA platforms.  As usual the  radar boat will make island waifu.  Radar boats BB buddies will make SAME island waifu.  Just need to get an angle to drop fish onto that tiny little cluster of likely overlapping targets.  and aircraft will not spot the torps.  So they either panic scatter or eat fish, maybe both.   Fishing with fish.  Whats not to love?    You might not see a lot of team work out there, but you'll have to be quick to seize opportunities that will happen.   So you will see  potential opportunities to just mess them up, run 'em outta cover, and maybe even rack up kills and damage. 

Gotta know when to be slow, and when to be fast.

There's all types of bits and pieces to the new game play meta and it's still shaking down.  You may have to go out there and get thumped a few times to figure out what works but don't let that stop you.  What you can do depends a whole lot on the type of team you get.  If they're passive players your hosed no matter what.

Warlord sends

2:40 am.. Good beer, bad typos, off to bed.

Edited by TL_Warlord_Roff

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