Fixing the Shimakaze "Legendary Upgrade"

[Troa_Barton]

So the Shima's legendary upgrade is garbage unless you're firing at max range or you lock your tubes and aim with your boat. I have two proposals to make this more usable or change it entirely.

Current stats of the legendary upgrade:

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+50% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–80% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

Proposal 1: Simple fix you gain damage output at the cost of durability and some aiming speed.

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+65% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

+70% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

Proposal 2: Redesign. Makes the shima both more stealthy and slightly more durable at the cost of torp reload

–10% to torpedo tube reload time.

+30% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to ship detection by sea

–5% to ship detection by sea

 

The shima is a specialized boat doing two things very well, being sneaky and torping, the legendary upgrade should frankly upgrade those parameters on the Shimakaze rather than endorse passive play on an already passive ship.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[Sweetsie]

There are a few that argued in the past that the Leg was good and they play it. I tried 5 games in it and felt literally useless with it and swapped back.... 

The core of the problem besides the hideous traverse is that the legendary goes on top on the slot were most already have the -15% torp reload....So in reality you only gain -10% and an almost unplayable tube traverse. I would scratch all of these types of buffs and nerfs and give it a reload booster like its tech tree sisters....maybe just one more set of 5 torps 8 seconds later. Or anything that actually buffs the ship...robbing Peter to pay Paul is a crappy reward for the Shima.

[Vaffu]

32 minutes ago, Troa_Barton said:

So the Shima's legendary upgrade is garbage unless you're firing at max range or you lock your tubes and aim with your boat. I have two proposals to make this more usable or change it entirely.

Current stats of the legendary upgrade:

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+50% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–80% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

Proposal 1: Simple fix you gain damage output at the cost of durability and some aiming speed.

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+65% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

Proposal 2: Redesign. Makes the shima both more stealthy and slightly more durable at the cost of torp reload

–10% to torpedo tube reload time.

+30% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to ship detection by sea

 

The shima is a specialized boat doing two things very well, being sneaky and torping, the legendary upgrade should frankly upgrade those parameters on the Shimakaze rather than endorse passive play on an already passive ship.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Legendary modules are not meant to be a straight up upgrade. They are a trade off module. Giving here and taking there to give you a new "style" so to speak of playing the ship. 

Khabas for instance gives you 1 more KM gun range but also makes a horribly slow maneuvering boat even worse. 

Don't use it if you don't like it.  I used my Shima legendary mod exactly once and now it just sits in my inventory.

[Final8ty]

I have learnt to play with it but i can totally understand others not liking it.

[silverdahc]

I've used it and its workable one thing I don't like is It's not very viable in unexpected knife fight unless you just happen to have it on the right side 

[yashma]

I've always thought it laughable that one of the longest grinds in the game provided one of the worst rewards.  I think the legendary mods should either be made far easier to get, such as a flat 50k XP after modifiers.....or actually turned into legitimate upgrades, rather than side grades which half the time don't even amount to that.

[Prothall]

the thing that bothers me about legendary upgrades is they are not universal in how they work.

Some ships that are already great boats get legendary modules that make them even more of a beast.

Others get modules you would only want to have in a few situations.

They should have balanced them better to really rob Peter and pay Paul on ALL ships.

[Asym_KS]

Guys, I'd like to have some value with and for the hundreds of hours it takes to achieve the LU's in any ship....  It was a goal with no real value..... 

WG is simply not going to fix that LU in our lifetimes.  They aren't going to do ANYTHING that affects the revenue stream.  Radar at the cruiser line split gave them a boost and they still missed the 8.0 change and several ships we figured were due out........and have extended the xmas stuff I think I read yesterday..........a WoTs moment from a few years ago.......want to bet they missed the revenue projections for the last two quarters in 2018?  

I'm like you'all:  I tried it for two or three games and now it is in inventory should WoWs get profitable enough to expand their "legacy systems" support....

[n00bot]

Don’t you know WG hates torpedoes? Their cash comes from BB payers, I mean players.  Look at all the BB premiums and FreeXP boats... where’s my FreeXP DD? Where’s my T10 Premium DD? They really do not want to release a “good” DD, and Shimmy’s legendary mod was always going to disappoint.

[RyuuohD_NA]

34 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

Guys, I'd like to have some value with and for the hundreds of hours it takes to achieve the LU's in any ship....  It was a goal with no real value..... 

WG is simply not going to fix that LU in our lifetimes.  They aren't going to do ANYTHING that affects the revenue stream.  Radar at the cruiser line split gave them a boost and they still missed the 8.0 change and several ships we figured were due out........and have extended the xmas stuff I think I read yesterday..........a WoTs moment from a few years ago.......want to bet they missed the revenue projections for the last two quarters in 2018?  

I'm like you'all:  I tried it for two or three games and now it is in inventory should WoWs get profitable enough to expand their "legacy systems" support....

Can you even try to comment anything without mentioning the word "radar" for once?

[Troa_Barton]

7 minutes ago, n00bot said:

Don’t you know WG hates torpedoes? Their cash comes from BB payers, I mean players.  Look at all the BB premiums and FreeXP boats... where’s my FreeXP DD? Where’s my T10 Premium DD? They really do not want to release a “good” DD, and Shimmy’s legendary mod was always going to disappoint.

I too would like a FXP DD, but I would argue that the Kamekaze, T-61, Kidd, Cossack, Haida, Harekaze, and Black are all good DDs.

WG was overly cautious with the Shima's LU it needs to be readjusted. The Gearing's LU is just stupid good, turning the Gearing into a gunboat Shima with arguably better torps.

[Asym_KS]

11 minutes ago, RyuuohD_NA said:

Can you even try to comment anything without mentioning the word "radar" for once?

OK.  I'll try to avoid the word One can not speak...........Oh God, I'm being oppressed !!!    OK, back to topic, LU's sometimes suck because they are designed to keep you playing for the least amount of reward........  That is intentional.  Most players have no idea what the LU's actually do until they win them and try to use them !  Previous threads have discussed that and, to be honest, I was just "finishing the grinds in the IJN line" and didn't really care what they did cause players like you warned me they "suck most of the time..."  See !  I didn't say the word One is not allowed to speak..........happy?

[Sabot_100]

It is unfortunate that some LU's are "no-brainers" and other are "no-f'n-ways" while the grind for either is the same. Seems like something WG should adjust the now that they have lots of data and feedback. Besides the forum comments, they would know how many have earned each LU and of those, how many use it. That would be the most telling stat.

[IronHyde_1]

Yash, pretty much nailed It on the head with this, there is nothing "Legendary" about these upgrades,  you give up too much for just 1 gimmick, they should of named these, "Gimmick or Sidekick Modules"

[Pytheas]

3 hours ago, yashma said:

I've always thought it laughable that one of the longest grinds in the game provided one of the worst rewards.  I think the legendary mods should either be made far easier to get, such as a flat 50k XP after modifiers.....or actually turned into legitimate upgrades, rather than side grades which half the time don't even amount to that.

I agree with this guy

[BrushWolf]

The Shima's legendary is really designed an alternate play style that more resembles the old torpedo spam days. While I disagree with the theory I wouldn't sell it as they might change it down the road.

[rabidrabit]

A half baked idea poorly implemented?  Shocking!

[Reymu]

4 hours ago, silverdahc said:

I've used it and its workable one thing I don't like is It's not very viable in unexpected knife fight unless you just happen to have it on the right side 

Almost makes you wish EM improves torp traverse.

I know you can reduce the traverse penalty by running aiming systems module, but haven't unlocked my Shima' LU yet. Time to co-op spam her.

[Crucis]

4 hours ago, yashma said:

I've always thought it laughable that one of the longest grinds in the game provided one of the worst rewards.  I think the legendary mods should either be made far easier to get, such as a flat 50k XP after modifiers.....or actually turned into legitimate upgrades, rather than side grades which half the time don't even amount to that.

I agree 1000%, yashma.  The LegMods just aren't so good that they're worth the dreadful grinds you have to go through to get them.  Not even close.

I get that they're side grades, but IMO, they're not GOOD side grades.  Too many of them make their ship worse, IMO.  For example, some of the DD LegMods are in slot 5, the slot where the Concealment module resides.  And you have to give up the Concealment upgrade's benefits to get the LegMod's benefits.  But IMO, none of those particular slot 5 DD LegMods are even close to being worth the loss of the Concealment module … except for the Gearing, and that's because her LegMod actually improves her concealment rather than making it worse.

 

 

3 hours ago, Prothall said:

the thing that bothers me about legendary upgrades is they are not universal in how they work.

Some ships that are already great boats get legendary modules that make them even more of a beast.

Others get modules you would only want to have in a few situations.

They should have balanced them better to really rob Peter and pay Paul on ALL ships.

I wouldn't want truly universal Legendary mods.  What I'd prefer are 4 sets of legendary modules, one for each type of ship.  And within each ship type sets of LegMods, have 3-4 different LegMods where each one enhanced a different aspect of that type's game play.

For example, BB LegMods might include one for enhancing secondaries, one for enhancing main guns, and one for enhancing survivability.  Or the DD LegMods might include one for enhancing torps, one for guns, one for concealment, and one for speed/maneuverability.  Cruiser LegMods might be a tad trickier, since they could seem to be similar to the BB ones.  Maybe one for main guns, one for speed/maneuverability, one for survivability, and one for concealment.  (I'll skip CVs at this point.)

It seems like this idea would create more variety and interest in legendary modules, since there might be no perfect cookie cutter solution for every ship.

[Kizarvexis]

3 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

So the Shima's legendary upgrade is garbage unless you're firing at max range or you lock your tubes and aim with your boat. I have two proposals to make this more usable or change it entirely.

Current stats of the legendary upgrade:

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+50% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–80% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

Proposal 1: Simple fix you gain damage output at the cost of durability and some aiming speed.

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+65% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

 

 

The Shimakaze has a 25 degrees per second torp traverse, which is 7.2s for a 180 degree turn. So with the Unique Upgrade the 25 degrees per second traverse drops to 5 degrees per second traverse and that makes the 180 degree turn 36 sec for the torps. With Aiming Systems mod 1, the Unique Upgrade traverse is 6 degrees per second and that makes the 180 degree turn 30 sec for the torps.

 

If you make the traverser -10%, then it is 22.5 degrees per second torp traverse, which is 8s for a 180 degree turn. I don't think that a +15% extra incapacitation chance would offset that little of a traverse nerf. In the Shinakaze Unique Upgrade thread, I made some calcs that I think would work better with the +50% incapacitation chance.

 

I think that the -80% torp traverse could be dropped to 50-65% and work, but that is my opinion.

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -40% that makes the torp traverse 12s for a 180 degree turn which seems too low. (10s with ASM1 in slot 3)

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -50% that makes the torp traverse 14.4s for a 180 degree turn. (12s with ASM1 in slot 3)
If the torp traverse could be dropped to -60% that makes the torp traverse 18s for a 180 degree turn. (15s with ASM1 in slot 3)
If the torp traverse could be dropped to -65% that makes the torp traverse 20.6s for a 180 degree turn. (17.1s with ASM1 in slot 3)

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -75% that makes the torp traverse 28s for a 180 degree turn which seems too high. (24s with ASM1 in slot 3)

 

3 hours ago, Troa_Barton said:

So the Shima's legendary upgrade is garbage unless you're firing at max range or you lock your tubes and aim with your boat. I have two proposals to make this more usable or change it entirely.

Current stats of the legendary upgrade:

–25% to torpedo tube reload time.

+50% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–80% to torpedo tube traverse speed.

 

 

 

Proposal 2: Redesign. Makes the shima both more stealthy and slightly more durable at the cost of torp reload

–10% to torpedo tube reload time.

+30% to risk of torpedo tubes becoming incapacitated.

–10% to ship detection by sea

 

The shima is a specialized boat doing two things very well, being sneaky and torping, the legendary upgrade should frankly upgrade those parameters on the Shimakaze rather than endorse passive play on an already passive ship.

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

Shima base
131s reload 8km torps and 117.9s with TAE skill.
153s reload 12km torps and 137.7s with TAE skill.
150s reload 20km torps and 135s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Shima Unique Upgrade -25% reload, -80% traverse, +50% torp Incapacitation
98.3s reload 8km torps and 88.4s with TAE skill.
114.8s reload 12km torps and 103.3s with TAE skill.
112.5s reload 20km torps and 101.3s with TAE skill.
36s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 30 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Torp tubes mod 3 -15% reload +50% incapacitation
111.4s reload 8km torps and 100.2s with TAE skill.
130s reload 12km torps and 117s with TAE skill.
127.5s reload 20km torps and 114.8s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Proposal #2  -10% reload, +30% incapacitated, -10% detection
117.9s reload 8km torps and 106.1s with TAE skill.
137.7s reload 12km torps and 123.9s with TAE skill.
135s reload 20km torps and 121.5s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.01km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with upgrade, 5.76km with upgrade & CE module, 5.18km with upgrade, CE module & Skill, 5.01km with upgrade, CE module & skill and camo

 

An extra -10% seems a bit much. If it were -5% to detection, IMO that might work better. I would also bump the incapacitation back to +50% or +65%

5.31km max - 7.11km base, 6.75km with upgrade, 6.08km with upgrade & CE module, 5.47km with upgrade, CE module & Skill, 5.31km with upgrade, CE module & skill and camo

 

3 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The Shima's legendary is really designed an alternate play style that more resembles the old torpedo spam days. While I disagree with the theory I wouldn't sell it as they might change it down the road.

This

 

Also, they are Unique Upgrades as, IMO, people were reading too much into Legendary when it was supposed to be a side grade, not an upgrade. Remember to account of the module that is replaced by the UU.

[SavageTactical]

I can handle it’s shortcomes for the net 10% reload increase. 

[Taichunger]

8 hours ago, Final8ty said:

I have learnt to play with it but i can totally understand others not liking it.

Ditto.

[Destroyer_KuroshioKai]

The LM works best from a torp from range play style.  I find that interesting since this was a play style WG stated they wanted to move away from.  This module works best with the 20km with TA builds, but can work with 12km torps.

You need to be planning your torp drops ahead of time.  As I near the 15 second mark on my torp reload I CNTRL+X my torps on my predicted launch bearing of my ship to minimize time needed to complete the drop.  Note that locking your torps does not lock your main battery to the same angle. 

If I do need to yolo torp something treat your turrets like a BBs main battery and be pre-angled well in advance.  If you need to adjust you cant rely on the tube traverse speed, practice turning your boat to get the tubes on the proper angle.

In short, you lose a lot of the close range torp fluidity for a raw torp DPM increase.  If you play Shima aggressive like I do the LM hurts you more than the more passive players.  When I saw hurt, you have to adjust your play style more, but it is not impossible to over come.

[Destroyer_KuroshioKai]

19 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

Ditto.

I know he runs the 20's what torps do you run?

[Troa_Barton]

1 hour ago, Kizarvexis said:

 

The Shimakaze has a 25 degrees per second torp traverse, which is 7.2s for a 180 degree turn. So with the Unique Upgrade the 25 degrees per second traverse drops to 5 degrees per second traverse and that makes the 180 degree turn 36 sec for the torps. With Aiming Systems mod 1, the Unique Upgrade traverse is 6 degrees per second and that makes the 180 degree turn 30 sec for the torps.

 

If you make the traverser -10%, then it is 22.5 degrees per second torp traverse, which is 8s for a 180 degree turn. I don't think that a +15% extra incapacitation chance would offset that little of a traverse nerf. In the Shinakaze Unique Upgrade thread, I made some calcs that I think would work better with the +50% incapacitation chance.

 

I think that the -80% torp traverse could be dropped to 50-65% and work, but that is my opinion.

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -40% that makes the torp traverse 12s for a 180 degree turn which seems too low. (10s with ASM1 in slot 3)

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -50% that makes the torp traverse 14.4s for a 180 degree turn. (12s with ASM1 in slot 3)
If the torp traverse could be dropped to -60% that makes the torp traverse 18s for a 180 degree turn. (15s with ASM1 in slot 3)
If the torp traverse could be dropped to -65% that makes the torp traverse 20.6s for a 180 degree turn. (17.1s with ASM1 in slot 3)

If the torp traverse could be dropped to -75% that makes the torp traverse 28s for a 180 degree turn which seems too high. (24s with ASM1 in slot 3)

 

 

Shima base
131s reload 8km torps and 117.9s with TAE skill.
153s reload 12km torps and 137.7s with TAE skill.
150s reload 20km torps and 135s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Shima Unique Upgrade -25% reload, -80% traverse, +50% torp Incapacitation
98.3s reload 8km torps and 88.4s with TAE skill.
114.8s reload 12km torps and 103.3s with TAE skill.
112.5s reload 20km torps and 101.3s with TAE skill.
36s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 30 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Torp tubes mod 3 -15% reload +50% incapacitation
111.4s reload 8km torps and 100.2s with TAE skill.
130s reload 12km torps and 117s with TAE skill.
127.5s reload 20km torps and 114.8s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.59km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with concealment module, 5.76km with CE module & Skill, 5.59km with CE module & skill and camo

 

Proposal #2  -10% reload, +30% incapacitated, -10% detection
117.9s reload 8km torps and 106.1s with TAE skill.
137.7s reload 12km torps and 123.9s with TAE skill.
135s reload 20km torps and 121.5s with TAE skill.
7.2s torpedo 180 degree traverse  Add in ASM1 in slot 3 & the traverse is 6 seconds.
5.01km max - 7.11km base, 6.4km with upgrade, 5.76km with upgrade & CE module, 5.18km with upgrade, CE module & Skill, 5.01km with upgrade, CE module & skill and camo

 

An extra -10% seems a bit much. If it were -5% to detection, IMO that might work better. I would also bump the incapacitation back to +50% or +65%

5.31km max - 7.11km base, 6.75km with upgrade, 6.08km with upgrade & CE module, 5.47km with upgrade, CE module & Skill, 5.31km with upgrade, CE module & skill and camo

 

This

 

Also, they are Unique Upgrades as, IMO, people were reading too much into Legendary when it was supposed to be a side grade, not an upgrade. Remember to account of the module that is replaced by the UU.

Thanks for doing the math I'm going to agree with you on the 5% I'm going to edit that in the proposal. Traverse speed just seems so arbitrary, its only felt if it's extreme and doesn't seem to do anything other than irritate the players using it. I left it on there as a little extra compensation to shima haters more than anything else.

43 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I know he runs the 20's what torps do you run?

If you're referring to me (with the "he" part of the statement) I run 12kms and I play very aggressively in my shima, but I like having options when a radar cruiser is around. That aggressive play is why I despise the LU..