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pastore123

The state of the Leone

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If you’re clicking on this thread hoping for some info on this up tiered dd, you will find I have no news or updates on this dd. This is me explaining how frustrating it is hoping for more Italian ships and receiving this lump of steel. 

To begin, I have been looking for new videos of Leone game play. However, I have only found a small handful. Flamu and majesh being the two that have really done a review on this ship. (The other few videos are in different languages). These two players do not find this ship interesting whatsoever. I even listened to the world of warships podcast only to hear other players find it hard to even want to play this ship to even test it. 

With this being said, I am excited that more Italian ships are making their way to this game. However, I feel like there exists a rule that If the said ship isn’t a bb, it gets shafted. 

I really hope this ship either gets down tiered or gets some love. 

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I hope it should get buffed or get appropriated MM/Tier, that ship cant endure uptiered, like how PEF currently is.

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Every Italian ship excluding Roma have either been under-tiered or over-tiered (Giulio). It's hilarious honestly.

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2 hours ago, leehwongxing said:

I hope it should get buffed or get appropriated MM/Tier, that ship cant endure uptiered, like how PEF currently is.

Agreed.

54 minutes ago, AyanoMidori said:

Every Italian ship excluding Roma have either been under-tiered or over-tiered (Giulio). It's hilarious honestly.

I wonder what this means for the eventual Italian tech tree line.

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I witnessed a Leone carrying in a T8 match. Top of the team in a nailbiter.

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4 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I witnessed a Leone carrying in a T8 match. Top of the team in a nailbiter.

Yes, it could, but it requires enemy to push into range. That is not gonna happen if enemy only need to win by point.

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1 minute ago, leehwongxing said:

Yes, it could, but it requires enemy to push into range. That is not gonna happen if enemy only need to win by point.

IIRC, he quietly and efficiently capped while the rest of us killed. The enemy got a bit greedy going after our carrier, but we stopped a DD rush on the CV and the rest was close but a very satisfying end.

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It seems to take WG much longer to release Premium ships now. I don’t know if it’s becuse they tell us much earlier when they work on a ship or they just do a lot more testing. 

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I'm not sure if blizzard archives his streams but he is an Italian streamer who has played Leone a bit. From what I've watched most people have decent to good games in Leone. However you have to have a talent for being a second line player who fights while others are already focused. At this point I wouldn't be shocked if Leone was release in its current form. I'm still going to dream it is a campaign reward ship for an Italian arc this winter.

Italian ships this side of Cesare have very niche play groups which raises the stats and make everything look good.

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6 hours ago, pastore123 said:

With this being said, I am excited that more Italian ships are making their way to this game. However, I feel like there exists a rule that If the said ship isn’t a bb, it gets shafted. 

This is a myth that some players created, that italian cruisers are overtiered and now they are trying to do the same with italian DDs. Both italian crusiers are fine, and are good ships, just because they dont fit the "burn BBs to the ground" category players think they are weak. Cruisers can do much more than that.

6 hours ago, pastore123 said:

I really hope this ship either gets down tiered or gets some love. 

Leone doesnt need much to becomes a decent T6 DD. A buff to the turret traverse and concealment and she becomes a great DD hunter. Also give her a proper smoke consumable. Give her this and she is ready to go. 

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Well you should pay attention to the myth. The rifle characteristics for both cruisers are hilariously wrong. As well as HE that had its one defining characteristic negated. Heals are added when WG needs a gimmick to make up for poor design implementation.  Guess which ship gets one?

 Lesta hammered these ships into a short range meta to appease a player base tired of long range spam. Budyonny is a later design sitting a tier lower than Abruzzi. 

Please don’t start some [edited] story about a myth. 

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5 hours ago, pastore123 said:

I wonder what this means for the eventual Italian tech tree line.

overtirered,underwhelming,require high captain skill to perform well(what is good for a italian ship is average to other nations ships).

i have blue stast(don't know what that means) with my duca d aosta. reaching 40k dmg done on the aosta is a REALLY good game. the average aosta player reach 20k.

 

Edited by Cruxdei

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6 hours ago, pastore123 said:

Agreed.

I wonder what this means for the eventual Italian tech tree line.

It's gonna be turrible

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I've not seen much on Leone, but I've also not seen much on Yahagi or Viribus Unitas in a while - and they were announced at the same time. The Neustrashimy and Azuma have hogged more of the limelight, but that's perhaps natural given they're at more 'important' tiers.

The Irian, Lazo and Wichita have also fallen by the wayside and they're even older than Leone.

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Every tech tree should be fairly good. The one line that will probably be the least fun is the destroyers depending on how WG decides to go with possible choices.


Cruisers

IV - V 

The  first couple of generation light cruisers will be your standard meh ships. Duca d'Aosta powered down a lot.

VI - VII - VIII

First up is Trento with the 203/50 with 850-ish mps AP. Should be all around meh. Bolzano is an incremental jump up armor wise however gains the 203/53 which means it will be a danger to most ships. The HE is standard so is a decent choice against angled ships. The Zara class at VIII should be rather resilient versus the standard HE spam.

IX - X

Probably two forms of the Ansaldo Super Washington. Imagine a Zara with 12 203/53 rifles. The 203/53 is an excellent weapon system that has values that compete with other tier X weapons much like the Japanese cruisers some variation of this will probably equip tier VII to X. With soft stats improving on each tier. There is a possible  203/55 in the last drawings so there the possibility of a Zao-esque final 203mm rifle unless it is just a difference in caliber in how Spain and Italy measure caliber.

The heavy cruisers should do well as a branch.There is a possibility of a 254/55 that as of now I'm not sure if anyone has RM/Ansaldo projected values. Lesta should since it was offered to Russia.

Battleships

III-IV

Cuniberti's Colossus seems a meh generic choice. With original original Cavour or Duilio being your standard spammy boi with 13 305mm rifles.

V- VI - VII

One of the rebuilds can fit at either tier.

Caracciolo with a 1919 refit would actually work really well at tier VII if any data on the 381/45 can be found. Since the refit armor all had to be above the main armor deck it fits very well with game mechanics. A 381/45 would probably get Hood/Warspite style stats coupled with a Pugliese refit would make for a very competent tier VII. 

Otherwise one of the battlecruiser projects can slot in tier VII.

VIII - IX - X

Littorio can scale up to tier IX easily. Especially if some of the armor features that where dropped to save weight where added back such as a bow proof against HE.

The 381/50 can scale up with better sigma ala Bourgogne in a stretched Littorio hull if Lesta remains firm that they can't find anything else.

The projected 406mm projects would fit well a tier X UP41 otherwise. Someone has to have the ship with the least hit points and lightest armament. I don't think any Italian fan would be upset with a UP.41 at tier X using a 406mm. With histor 

Destroyers

This is the only real enigma as it depends a lot on Lesta design choices. Which Leone has thrown much into question.

Misc

All the ships should have decent AA upgrade options, gimmicks, etc.

 

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11 hours ago, AyanoMidori said:

Every Italian ship excluding Roma have either been under-tiered or over-tiered (Giulio). It's hilarious honestly.

Yep. GC is a t6.5 Duca should be t5 Abrizu should be 6 and Roma with its dispertion should be a 7.

I like the pasta boats but they are frustrating. Roma guns.

I get some crazy funny torp hits with the sea mines but in general there weak. Amd the one I dont have is the GC because I was not playing BB at that time so I did not care.

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5 hours ago, Xlap said:

This is a myth that some players created, that italian cruisers are overtiered and now they are trying to do the same with italian DDs. Both italian crusiers are fine, and are good ships, just because they dont fit the "burn BBs to the ground" category players think they are weak. Cruisers can do much more than that.

Not a myth, it's quite easy to see.

Duca d'Aosta as first tested already had unrealistic abilities, firing the 50 kg APC shells at 1,000 meters per second. To put it simply, her guns, the 152/53 M1929, never used the 50 kg APC shells, instead using a lighter 47.5 kg shell. Likewise, it never fired it's APC at 1,000 mps, but rather only 850 mps. Such APC shells and such a velocity was only ever used on the 152mm M1926, which only equipped the Giussano-class.

This gives it a substantial increase in punching power compared to where it should be, and without this element it would have been quite well suited to tier V. However, with the fake ballistics, she was placed at tier VI, and she still required numerous buffs to 'work' and featured a reversion of WG's initial Italian torpedo flavor - 4.5 km high-speed 'suicide' torpedoes. As of now she works at tier VI, albeit with a higher skill floor, and she's actually one of my favorite cruisers to play in the game. However, that doesn't change the fact that she should've been a tier V.

Duca degli Abruzzi is even more extreme of an example. She really should've been a tier VI, but WG placed it at tier VII. She appears with numerous fake elements as a result of this. For example, she features a 35 knot top speed, when neither she nor her sister even achieved this on trials. 33, perhaps up to 34 knots was their real top speed. WG also included a 30mm bow strake on the ship, which did not exist on the Abruzzi-class. This is rounded out by several other minor elements, but still failed to make the cruiser work at her tier - which lead to WG slapping on a repair party as a band-aid, to make the ship workable.

 

They may have reached a semi-balanced state where they are now, but they really should not have been put in those places in the first place.

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This will give the Italians a record as follows:

1 overpowered boat.

1 modest boat.

3 hilariously bad boats.

A 1-1-3 season isn't great. Looks like we're not making the playoffs this year.

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7 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

They may have reached a semi-balanced state where they are now, but they really should not have been put in those places in the first place.

I do admire all your technical knowledge, i really do. But this is a arcade game, not a simulator. WG tweaks stats for balance reasons. Some ships are often to strong for one tier and too weak for the next one, so WG needs to artificially buff or nerf them to make them fit a tier. 

 

Those ships works pretty well for the tier they are, this is what matters in the end. Both are very capable at what their do at their own tier. 

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2 minutes ago, Xlap said:

I do admire all your technical knowledge, i really do. But this is a arcade game, not a simulator. WG tweaks stats for balance reasons. Some ships are often to strong for one tier and too weak for the next one, so WG needs to artificially buff or nerf them to make them fit a tier. 

 

Those ships works pretty well for the tier they are, this is what matters in the end. Both are very capable at what their do at their own tier. 

Uhm, I tend to think WG often tweaks while drunk, or attempting to pay off gambling debts over the phone. Phoenix is 100% right - neither of the Ducas are tiered properly. And, frankly, I would argue that both are pretty sucky boats - they have joke armor, low DPM, silly torpedoes (which occasionally prove amusing, but are otherwise mostly useless). It's not giving me warm fuzzies about the Italians moving forward.

Which blows.

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I mean, this ship is essentially, as of this moment, completely useless:

Leone could have been a super-Clemson. Instead, she's a pile of turds stacked into roughly ship-like shape.

Edited by Battleship_ContediCavour

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20 minutes ago, Xlap said:

I do admire all your technical knowledge, i really do. But this is a arcade game, not a simulator. WG tweaks stats for balance reasons. Some ships are often to strong for one tier and too weak for the next one, so WG needs to artificially buff or nerf them to make them fit a tier. 

 

Those ships works pretty well for the tier they are, this is what matters in the end. Both are very capable at what their do at their own tier. 

You're missing my point here, and why so many people express frustration at their tiering. Alterations to 'hard' stats of the ships that force them into higher tiers has been a core issue behind these ships being balanced where they don't fit in particularly comfortably, and where simply being a tier lower would solve a lot of problems without butchering some of the defining features of the class.

This is also very much not helped by comments from WG that insist certain aspects of the ship models - such as Abruzzi's armor stake that reaches from the fore transverse bulkhead to the stem of the ship - are factual according to their Russian sources, in spite of the fact they are ultimately in disagreement with every other source on the ships (including those published by the Italy Navy's historical offices).

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14 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

You're missing my point here, and why so many people express frustration at their tiering. Alterations to 'hard' stats of the ships that force them into higher tiers has been a core issue behind these ships being balanced where they don't fit in particularly comfortably, and where simply being a tier lower would solve a lot of problems without butchering some of the defining features of the class.

This is also very much not helped by comments from WG that insist certain aspects of the ship models - such as Abruzzi's armor stake that reaches from the fore transverse bulkhead to the stem of the ship - are factual according to their Russian sources, in spite of the fact they are ultimately in disagreement with every other source on the ships (including those published by the Italy Navy's historical offices).

I would add that the "overgimmifickation" of these exact ships (Aosta, Abruzzi) shows how WG tried to shove them into upper tiers.

Aosta was the first cruiser -RN aside that is a unique case- to get three separate consumable slots, way before the USN CLs.   Abruzzi as well. Then there is the mediocre HE performance and the way AP behaves. In general the whole process behind these two ships shows that at some point they just started giving them gimmicks to justify the tier.

The conspiracy theorist in me would say that is has to do with pricing, but I hope it was just mistakes/miscommunication at the time.

I had no idea by the way about the armour model, only that Lesta had some difficulty accessing the relevant ship files.

Edited by warheart1992

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21 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

You're missing my point here, and why so many people express frustration at their tiering. Alterations to 'hard' stats of the ships that force them into higher tiers has been a core issue behind these ships being balanced where they don't fit in particularly comfortably, and where simply being a tier lower would solve a lot of problems without butchering some of the defining features of the class.

I do get your point. Italian guns/gunnery was great IRL, but in game they are bad. But we saw this before. German BB accuracy was great IRL, yet in game they suck and have "german dispersion". IJN 100mm DP guns were built as a AA/anti DD weapon, and not a "melt BB to the ground" tool. From a historical point of view, this can be very frustraiting. I wanst joking, i really admire your technical knowledge of italian ships, you seems to take historical stats very seriously and i get that some changes might be frustrating for you. Yet those are changes that do work in game and keep ships balanced.

 

Like you or not, Abruzzi is a balanced ship at T7. A ship that works at T7. Downtier her to T6 would make her OP. This is one of those cases where Abruzzi would be too strong at T6 and meh at T7, she is closer to T7 than she is to T6,  so WG tweaked some stats to make Abruzzi better at T7.

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1 minute ago, Xlap said:

I do get your point. Italian guns/gunnery was great IRL, but in game they are bad. But we saw this before. German BB accuracy was great IRL, yet in game they suck and have "german dispersion". IJN 100mm DP guns were built as a AA/anti DD weapon, and not a "melt BB to the ground" tool. From a historical point of view, this can be very frustraiting. I wanst joking, i really admire your technical knowledge of italian ships, you seems to take historical stats very seriously and i get that some changes might be frustrating for you. Yet those are changes that do work in game and keep ships balanced.

 

Like you or not, Abruzzi is a balanced ship at T7. A ship that works at T7. Downtier her to T6 would make her OP. This is one of those cases where Abruzzi would be too strong at T6 and meh at T7, she is closer to T7 than she is to T6,  so WG tweaked some stats to make Abruzzi better at T7.

Actually, the fact they're 'bad' in this case isn't the big issue. Well, for Abruzzi, her AP does underperform for some odd reason. But anyways, in this case, my issue is more that WG has exaggerated the abilities of these ships, and that resulted in them being higher tiered than they should be. Duca d'Aosta's AP is a lot stronger than it should be, for example. Technically, Abruzzi's rate of fire should not exceed 5 rounds per minute (per gun), but that ship has sailed - pardon the pun - a long time ago, rate of fire is a soft stat at this point.

My issue has more to do with the fact they're given better abilities than they should have (which leads to them stepping on each other's toes in some regards), and then placed at a higher tier as a result... and then balanced from there. It's even worse when they double down on some of their choices in regards to the unrealistic elements added (such as Abruzzi's bow strake, and the insistence that it's real).

Abruzzi, for example, is a comparable ship to the La Galissonnière-class. At tier VI, minus the repair party, fake bow strake, minus 1-2 knots off the top speed, and perhaps a lower rate of fire, and you'd have a fairly balanced ship. At the end of the day, if you started without all the extra goodies WG gave the ship, you've got a fairly decent place to start balancing it at tier VI. Duca d'Aosta, in her first incarnation, was a similar story.

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