Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Eisennagel

Kelvin Timeline is dead. Long Live the Prime Timeline.

51 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Testers
9,419 posts

 

Star Trek 4 is dead,and people are pointing fingers who to blame.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2019/01/10/paramount-has-canceled-star-trek-4-and-disneys-star-wars-is-to-blame/#4d39930d1dc2

 

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-4-canceled-reason-why/

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2465291/events-led-to-star-trek-4-in-development-hell

 

Should be noted that if Paramount doesn't produce a film, it loses its license.  

 

My take on this is that it all boils down to simple economics.  The Star Trek franchise cannot generate the kind of megabuck ticket sales to justify mega costly SFX laden movies.  The Star Trek franchise simply can't be the kind of swashbuckling, action filled roller coaster ride type of movies people are getting used to watching as summer movies.  

 

I just watched first episode of Star Trek Discover Season 2.  Regardless of what you think about ST: Discovery ,  I enjoyed it more than the last Star Trek movie, Beyond, which really didn't feel it went Beyond at all.    Going back to its roots --- in TV --- is where Star Trek should and always be.    This is the place where you have the time and the patience for subtle character development and universe creation.   This aspect of TV is something that even Star Wars have noticed.

 

St: Discovery might be leading into a new age of Star Trek TV, living in the Age of Stream.   Development and talk is serious about two other Star Trek series, one with Picard, set after the TNG, and another with Michelle Yeoh in Section 31.   There will also be 'shorts', which I felt were wonderful, and introduced a new way for character development and universe building.  

 

With the attention back to TV and the Prime Timeline, the whole point of a Kelvin Timeline just for Star Trek movies has become superfluous.   Movies are no longer needed to sustain the franchise.  

 

As for the controversy of Streaming vs. Prime Time TV, its already been known for awhile that the business model of front loaded prime time TV rating competition doesn't work well with genre shows, and especially with scifi shows, which may also on the average, have a higher budget requirement than a half hour TV comedy or a police drama.   Another factor is that as an audience, scifi fans are also tech savy people, got PCs, smartphones and tablets, and has been gravitating away from prime time TV to internet based streaming like Netflix and YouTube that they can binge and watch at their convenience.   Even for a prime time scifi TV show to work, it would need a streaming service to supplement its income.  It is because of this phenomenon that Netflix and Amazon Prime are producing their own genre shows just for exclusively streaming.   The volume and revenue has reached to a point that high budget all streaming shows are now sustainable.   This is where Discovery and the next generation of Star Trek shows have landed.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,222
Alpha Tester
5,502 posts
2,626 battles

That kinda sucks. I quite enjoyed Star Trek Beyond.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
586
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
2,158 posts
4,372 battles

On the one hand it makes sense considering Anton Yelchin dying and all that, on the other we have yet another "Well crap, cancelled just when it was getting good" like with Enterprise.

I have yet to see Discovery, I refuse to get CBS All Access just to watch ONE show because some idiot thought it would be a bright idea to put it on Netflix everywhere BUT the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44
[DAB]
Members
184 posts
3,487 battles
3 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

On the one hand it makes sense considering Anton Yelchin dying and all that, on the other we have yet another "Well crap, cancelled just when it was getting good" like with Enterprise.

I have yet to see Discovery, I refuse to get CBS All Access just to watch ONE show because some idiot thought it would be a bright idea to put it on Netflix everywhere BUT the US.

Depending on how sneaky you want to be, consider getting a VPN to spoof your location, it might help you out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
553
[-SYN-]
[-SYN-]
Alpha Tester
1,168 posts
4,829 battles

The Picard show is based on and heavily influenced by the Kelvin timeline, which is considered canon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,013
[HINON]
Members
10,130 posts

The newer films generally felt like a more generic sci fi action movie rather than Star Trek. If you removed anything overtly Star Trek related from the movies that is all that would be left. Star Trek movies need to get back to their roots by growing out of an excellent TV show, which from what I have seen of Discovery is not that show. I'm a bit bummed DS9 didn't get movies made from it as it had a rich tapestry to draw from. I mean the fans are making some better stuff than the studios and filling that void with things like Axanar etc.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,384
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
17,413 posts
15,881 battles

I stopped with the "Kelvin" setting trek movies after seeing "Into Darkness."

 

IMO, JJ Abrams would have been better served making his Star Trek movies in a future era from anything that the previous movies and TV shows were set in.  Set it 100 years after the Dominion War ended or something.  Make new characters and a whole fresh scenario without being too tied down by the canon.  If you something in Kirk, Picard's heyday, there's certain things that have to be respected with the setting of the era.  But moving forward, it's a whole new ball game.  That's what TNG did and it opened up a whole new phase for Star Trek.

 

The funny thing is, with the upcoming show using Picard, due to the actor's age, this is the first official Star Trek production that's moving FORWARD and not trying to remake the past.

15 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

The newer films generally felt like a more generic sci fi action movie rather than Star Trek. If you removed anything overtly Star Trek related from the movies that is all that would be left. Star Trek movies need to get back to their roots by growing out of an excellent TV show, which from what I have seen of Discovery is not that show. I'm a bit bummed DS9 didn't get movies made from it as it had a rich tapestry to draw from. I mean the fans are making some better stuff than the studios and filling that void with things like Axanar etc.

DS9 is a funny one, because like TNG it took some years for it to find its footing.  Then it took off.  I had major concerns with a story revolving a crew of a station that doesn't travel like a starship crew would.  The nice part with the whole Dominion War setting was that it was an easy thing for the story to return to.  Not every episode in the era was about the Dominion War, but hey, it was fun watching Starships going at it.

 

I don't think they were getting into DS9 movies probably because it would be competing with the TNG cast movies that were still coming out.  Nemesis though... That was IMO, a bad way for the TNG phase of movies to go out.

 

Anyways.  IMO Star Trek has to evolve.  Until Discovery came out, there hasn't been a Star Trek TV show in more than a decade.  JJ Abrams was retreading old stuff.  Discovery is IMO in risky waters because it's so close to the very well established TOS era.  But they're entering their 2nd season.  I'm giving it a chance despite some misgivings ("Those are NOT my Klingons!").  Again, TNG had a very weird start before they got their sh*t together.  Those first 2 TNG seasons... Goodness.

 

It's a far cry from the 90s when the TOS movies were wrapping up, TNG was well established and doing movies, and DS9, Voyager were on the air.  Trek probably burned itself out from that era.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
33 minutes ago, KingCakeBaby said:

The Picard show is based on and heavily influenced by the Kelvin timeline, which is considered canon.

 

 

I don't think that it is.  The Kelvin timeline is sorely created to deal with licensing issues, with Paramount doing the Kelvin and CBS doing Prime.  If CBS is doing the Picard show, then its on Prime.

Edited by Eisennagel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
586
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
2,158 posts
4,372 battles
3 minutes ago, Eisennagel said:

I don't think that it is.  The Kelvin timeline is sorely created to deal with licensing issues, with Paramount doing the Kelvin and CBS doing Prime.  If CBS is doing the Picard show, then its on Prime.

They're probably doing what Star Trek Online did with that: Set in the Prime timeline, but after Romulus getting all kablooied and Spock disappearing, dealing with the consequences of JJ's movies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
553
[-SYN-]
[-SYN-]
Alpha Tester
1,168 posts
4,829 battles
3 minutes ago, Eisennagel said:

 

 

I don't think that it is.  The Kelvin timeline is sorely created to deal with licensing issues, with Paramount doing the Kelvin and CBS doing Prime.  If CBS is doing the Picard show, then its on Prime.

From what has been said so far it will focus on Picard dealing with the fallout from the Romulan Empire being destroyed, which was the event that began the Kelvin timeline. The issue is that technology and events changed due to the events laid out in the movie, so I'm curious how they are going to address that or if they're just going to ignore it altogether. Patrick Stewart has always been pretty big on canon so it'll be interesting to see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
51 minutes ago, Landsraad said:

On the one hand it makes sense considering Anton Yelchin dying and all that, on the other we have yet another "Well crap, cancelled just when it was getting good" like with Enterprise.

I have yet to see Discovery, I refuse to get CBS All Access just to watch ONE show because some idiot thought it would be a bright idea to put it on Netflix everywhere BUT the US.

 

You could, let's say after Season 2 ends, subscribe for CBS for a month, and watch the two seasons.  Cancel for the next month after.   The cost of one month subscription for the time of watching two season is worth it when you consider how much you are paying a movie ticket for two hours.

 

ST Discovery in my view is still some steps behind The Expanse as the best scifi TV show ever, but it already has created some memorable characters.  The casting is simply superb to say the least.  

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
Just now, KingCakeBaby said:

From what has been said so far it will focus on Picard dealing with the fallout from the Romulan Empire being destroyed, which was the event that began the Kelvin timeline. The issue is that technology and events changed due to the events laid out in the movie, so I'm curious how they are going to address that or if they're just going to ignore it altogether. Patrick Stewart has always been pretty big on canon so it'll be interesting to see.

 

Actually, Picard is dealing with the events after Star Trek Insurrection, where Picard clone pre-Mad Max-Venom-Bane Tom Hardy nearly destroyed the Romulan Empire.    That was also Picard's last movie and appearance on the Star Trek universe, with Stewart doing X-Men work next.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
144
[WOLF2]
Members
389 posts
12,732 battles
43 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

The newer films generally felt like a more generic sci fi action movie rather than Star Trek. If you removed anything overtly Star Trek related from the movies that is all that would be left. Star Trek movies need to get back to their roots by growing out of an excellent TV show, which from what I have seen of Discovery is not that show. I'm a bit bummed DS9 didn't get movies made from it as it had a rich tapestry to draw from. I mean the fans are making some better stuff than the studios and filling that void with things like Axanar etc.

 

My thought too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
553
[-SYN-]
[-SYN-]
Alpha Tester
1,168 posts
4,829 battles

 

18 minutes ago, Eisennagel said:

Actually, Picard is dealing with the events after Star Trek Insurrection, where Picard clone pre-Mad Max-Venom-Bane Tom Hardy nearly destroyed the Romulan Empire.    That was also Picard's last movie and appearance on the Star Trek universe, with Stewart doing X-Men work next.

The clone might have some bearing on the show, but it isn't the premise.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/star-trek-patrick-stewarts-picard-series-reveals-new-details-1174452

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,399
[GWG]
[GWG]
Members
5,831 posts

There is a REALLY good fan film out.  Actually stars George Takei as 'old wild-man' Sulu for the younger characters..

Excellent story line too.

And yeah..  you can tell the difference in the caliber of the actors here.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
586
[C-CA]
[C-CA]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
2,158 posts
4,372 battles

This is just making me sad all over again that Axanar got axed. Press "F" to pay respects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
161
[WK]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
689 posts
10,242 battles

In regards to Ylechin's Passing:  Eh, it IS an ALTERNATE timeline.  They could've easily "rewrote" something from the Original Series that takes Chekov, to account for Yelchin's passing.  But I guess it would've been too much for them to come up with another character of their own.  It is harder to make something from scratch vs taking something that is established and making some changes.

 

While I didn't like the movies, I didn't hate them either.  They are what they are, but honestly it feels like they were just cramming a bunch of stuff together from the Original Movies and adding some "flare" here and there.  While I do wish they would've done a TV series after the first movie, what could they honestly do?  They'd have one hell of a hurdle to deal with, something that doesn't somehow copy from the original, but something that is "new".

 

Though I will point one thing out I just simply didn't agree with: Alt Khan was just "incorrect", for lack of better word.  Ricardo Montalbán's Khan will always be best Khan. :Smile_izmena:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,174
[SSG]
Alpha Tester
3,933 posts
9,055 battles
2 hours ago, KingCakeBaby said:

From what has been said so far it will focus on Picard dealing with the fallout from the Romulan Empire being destroyed, which was the event that began the Kelvin timeline. The issue is that technology and events changed due to the events laid out in the movie, so I'm curious how they are going to address that or if they're just going to ignore it altogether. Patrick Stewart has always been pretty big on canon so it'll be interesting to see.

Diverging timelines or as some know it "Multiverse theory of time travel". Basically, there's the "prime" timeline, in which everything from previous movies, and the events that cause Spock and Nero to travel back in time, happen. However from this point, or rather, Nero's arrival, the timeline fractures in to two, and so the Kelvin timeline develops on a parallel but different course as Kirk never takes the Enterprise to go to the planet with it's previous captain who's name I forget, never encounters Khan to send him to that planet, never knows his dad, etc. 

 

That means that the Picard show can completely ignore the last two movies, and 90% of the reboot that starts Kelvin  - only needing to acknowledge that Ambassador Spock is missing, presumed dead, and that Romulous was destroyed. While also nicely tying up the paradox that is created by them traveling in time as they would know the future and be able to stop it, meaning no time travel, assuming any other number of changes did not cause it to change in some way or any other number of changes given how many starfleet personal are killed and the destruction of Vulcan - things that would have MASSIVE repercussions in the timeline, as they could have killed people that make key developments or their children did. Multiverse means that both are canon, but separate, while solving the issue of him going back in time.

 

 

That aside, it belongs on TV, or at the very least, have a deal with Netflix or Hulu that CBS All Access airs the episode first, and then a week or two later, Netflix or Hulu gets it. I loved watching TNG, and some of the stories, characters, and topics, and it really needs to go back to telling stories that deal with issues we still have today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,679
[SOUP]
Beta Testers, In AlfaTesters
8,018 posts
2 hours ago, AVR_Project said:

 

 

I already pointed it out in one thread, but it's such a gem of a mini-series that it needs to be praised again~

I did enjoy the Kelvin-timeline films, one issue I always saw was that fans had a serious case of rose-coloured glasses; that Star Trek started perfect and every single moment that passed only ruined their flawless jewel. Star Wars suffers the same issue, fans crying foul over Solo and The Last Jedi, although TLJ wasn't a great film, it had its moments. But I don't see what people see so wrong with Solo. In my opinion, anthology films are the future for Star Wars as the main story has been done to death and now all the main cast are either dead characters or dead actors. Fans want more of the old, but the old is... old. William Shatner has more in common with my elderly grandfather than the action hero in a torn uniform he once was, that everyone wishes would return, and newer, younger audiences don't really want that anyway.

This is where The Orville comes in, in my opinion, it's what Star Trek today should be, what it needs to be. We've seen all the best ships and crews of the fleet, but we never get to see the story of one random ship doing random things.
The stories too have to have relevance to modern culture and events. A giant green hand ensnaring a starship won't mesmerize audiences anymore...
The problem with Star Trek and Star Wars is that in many cases those who hold the shares only want more of what made the show profitable in the first place, not straying into exploring strange new worlds of possibility.
This, however, is a double-edged sword, either it'll work, or it'll backfire. Two examples I can think of offhand are My Little Pony and Ghostbusters;
With My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, the staff developing the show moved a bit more towards a modern audience and took into consideration that children's parents would also be watching the show too, thus they shifted the franchise a little way into a new audience and were rewarded with massive popularity and success. This scared the shareholders of Hasbro who then began to muscle in on how the show was run, presented and written, alienating their newfound fanbase because they wanted to stick to their original target audience only. This actually is what caused me to leave that fandom, they sabotaged my interest and they lost a viewer.
Then on the other side of the scale, you have Ghostbusters... We all know about that new Ghostbusters film... in an attempt to keep everyone happy, they made nobody happy. Or some SJWs somehow convinced someone to give them the rights to make a film based on a beloved IP and tried to use it for their own propaganda, I wouldn't know, I never watched it. But that's the point, they went so far off the other end that they didn't get the viewership an IP like Ghostbusters would normally bring in. They tried to make it too new too quickly.

Star Trek Discovery is controversial, to say the least, just look up the Tardigrades Lawsuit. And with a new series based on Jean Luc Picard probably as an ambasador in some sort of Star Trek policial drama, the franchise's future is pretty uncertain. Many see Star Trek: Picard as the final nail in the coffin, I want to remain cautiously optimistic. But at the end of the day, mainstream sci-fi needs to turn to new IPs (or underloved old ones reborn) to stay afloat

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
4 hours ago, KingCakeBaby said:

 

The clone might have some bearing on the show, but it isn't the premise.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/star-trek-patrick-stewarts-picard-series-reveals-new-details-1174452

 

Yes, but it still took place years after Star Trek Nemesis, which means the show remains in the Prime time line.   Nemesis is the last film event of the Prime time line and its last and latest chronological event in canon.   Beyond that is a blank and remains unwritten in canon.

 

The legal agreements between Paramount and CBS is clear; CBS only does the Prime Timeline, and the Paramount only does the Kelvin Timeline, often referred to as JJ Trek.    There is no trespassing between the two,  and you got lawyers to make sure of that.  This was probably the weirdest thing that can happen to a franchise, probably matched by the continuous alternating universes in the Gundam franchise, or the schism in the Fate franchise between the Fate Grand Order line and the Nasuverse. 

Edited by Eisennagel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
2,845 posts
3,092 battles

Seeing the Enterprise F on screen would be pretty cool though, but it won't happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
14 minutes ago, Yoshiblue said:

Seeing the Enterprise F on screen would be pretty cool though, but it won't happen. 

 

 

Who knows, what happens to the new Picard show.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
5,584 posts
4,186 battles
4 hours ago, Eisennagel said:

 

Actually, Picard is dealing with the events after Star Trek Insurrection, where Picard clone pre-Mad Max-Venom-Bane Tom Hardy nearly destroyed the Romulan Empire.    That was also Picard's last movie and appearance on the Star Trek universe, with Stewart doing X-Men work next.

 

I recall that it's probably going to deal with the destruction of Romulus and Remus as seen in the 2009 film.  Interestingly enough, the showrunners of the Picard show asked for the story outline of Star Trek Online - a Star Trek MMO that dealt with the fallout of this event.

In regards to the Kelvin Timeline, it's a bit sad that they're not continuing it because it made Trek quite fun and vibrant.  Heck!  My main's ship in Star Trek Online is a vessel from the in-game Kelvin Timeline, mainly because it looks imposing and has lots of fighters:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters, Beta Testers
5,584 posts
4,186 battles
4 hours ago, Landsraad said:

This is just making me sad all over again that Axanar got axed. Press "F" to pay respects.

Axanar was axed...partly because the creator of the show was embroiled in a lot of shady dealings.  You'll find a lot more information on Star Trek-affiliated sites, but the creator of Axanar was using crowd-funded movie to create a movie studio for his own personal gain.  That and he was using Trek-branded merchandise (search Axanar coffee) to fund this business, which wasn't necessarily all going to the fan-film.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
9,419 posts
1 hour ago, Chobittsu said:

I already pointed it out in one thread, but it's such a gem of a mini-series that it needs to be praised again~

I did enjoy the Kelvin-timeline films, one issue I always saw was that fans had a serious case of rose-coloured glasses; that Star Trek started perfect and every single moment that passed only ruined their flawless jewel. Star Wars suffers the same issue, fans crying foul over Solo and The Last Jedi, although TLJ wasn't a great film, it had its moments. But I don't see what people see so wrong with Solo. In my opinion, anthology films are the future for Star Wars as the main story has been done to death and now all the main cast are either dead characters or dead actors. Fans want more of the old, but the old is... old. William Shatner has more in common with my elderly grandfather than the action hero in a torn uniform he once was, that everyone wishes would return, and newer, younger audiences don't really want that anyway.

This is where The Orville comes in, in my opinion, it's what Star Trek today should be, what it needs to be. We've seen all the best ships and crews of the fleet, but we never get to see the story of one random ship doing random things.
The stories too have to have relevance to modern culture and events. A giant green hand ensnaring a starship won't mesmerize audiences anymore...
The problem with Star Trek and Star Wars is that in many cases those who hold the shares only want more of what made the show profitable in the first place, not straying into exploring strange new worlds of possibility.
This, however, is a double-edged sword, either it'll work, or it'll backfire. Two examples I can think of offhand are My Little Pony and Ghostbusters;
With My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, the staff developing the show moved a bit more towards a modern audience and took into consideration that children's parents would also be watching the show too, thus they shifted the franchise a little way into a new audience and were rewarded with massive popularity and success. This scared the shareholders of Hasbro who then began to muscle in on how the show was run, presented and written, alienating their newfound fanbase because they wanted to stick to their original target audience only. This actually is what caused me to leave that fandom, they sabotaged my interest and they lost a viewer.
Then on the other side of the scale, you have Ghostbusters... We all know about that new Ghostbusters film... in an attempt to keep everyone happy, they made nobody happy. Or some SJWs somehow convinced someone to give them the rights to make a film based on a beloved IP and tried to use it for their own propaganda, I wouldn't know, I never watched it. But that's the point, they went so far off the other end that they didn't get the viewership an IP like Ghostbusters would normally bring in. They tried to make it too new too quickly.

Star Trek Discovery is controversial, to say the least, just look up the Tardigrades Lawsuit. And with a new series based on Jean Luc Picard probably as an ambasador in some sort of Star Trek policial drama, the franchise's future is pretty uncertain. Many see Star Trek: Picard as the final nail in the coffin, I want to remain cautiously optimistic. But at the end of the day, mainstream sci-fi needs to turn to new IPs (or underloved old ones reborn) to stay afloat

 

Should not worry about Star Trek.  Its star is back on the rise, driven by the winds of the Age of Streaming.   I like the fact that the new Picard show is focused on thoughtful plot and politics, with the drama and character development of such.  This is how TV should always work.   This has been the ground that Star Trek is based on.  Its not an interstellar swashbuckler some try to morph it to be.  Its not Star Wars.  Its Star Wars that should be in trouble, and it does not help that SW is facing both blockbuster and SFX movie fatigue.    For all its worth, the JJ Trek movies lack the greatest attributes of Mad Robot's greatest TV works, such as Alias and Lost, that sense of mystery and ambiguity and displacement.  

 

As for Orville, I have not watched it but it seems like a satire to me.  Satire tends to be focused on making reflective commentary about some other series or our political and cultural environment.  While its fun and full of laughter to last for seasons, you can't be immersed and taken to flights of fantasy with it, because the satire is there to teach you about the present situation.

Edited by Eisennagel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×